I'm not vagal dominant, I'm sympathetic deficient

Hello All and Happy Holidays!!

I don't know if this is going to pertain to AF, however I think it does, but it is certainly going to pertain to flutter, because that is what I have mostly, and the following fits my scenario to a tee. I did have AF while on beta blockers, though, and you must keep that in mind. The confusion of being vagally dominant over being sympathetic deficient has plagued me since the beginning of trying to understand all this information. I could never figure out why there wasn't the possibilty that the sympathetic system was simply running out of steam, thus allowing the vagal side to dominant. You will see in the following information, that the problem may very well be that my sympathetic system just can't keep up. Before I proceed, I want to reiterate some pertinent facts about my test results, because they are crucial to this information.

1) Molydenum - I was extremely low and the doctor thought this was possibly the most profound finding of all my tests. Molybdenum is critical for the sulfite oxidase enzyme.

2) I was extremely low in B12.

3) I was also low in folic acid on one test, but high on my intracellular test. When one in low in B12, folate gets trapped inside the cell.

4) I was low in Vanilmandelic acid, which showed I had a disruption in the pathway of dopamine to norepinephrine.

5) I went out of rhythm after eating Doritoes. I thought it could have been MSG, when in fact it very well could have been the coloring additive, as you will read.

6) I was also low in Vit B6.

7) Higher levels of mercury in the cell and hair tests.

8) I was low in Glutathione.

I will present some excerpts of what I have found, and then if you so desire you can go to the link and read in its entirety.

Noradrenaline Synthesis

Phenylalanine + enzyme + cofactors -> Tyrosine
* Tyrosine + enzyme + cofactors -> Dopamine
* Dopamine + enzyme (DBH) + cofactors -> Noradrenaline (NA)
* NA + enzyme + cofactors -> VMA (vanilmandelic acid)
4) Noradrenaline (NA) eventually dissolves by mixing with some enzymes and cofactors to make VMA, which can be measured in urine. If it is not seen here, one has a problem with one of the above steps.

Noradrenaline Problems

The following are thing (I'm just presenting what applies) that can go wrong with the Noradrenaline system:

Sulfides can impair the conversion of Dopamine to Noradrenaline if one has low levels of the protective Sulfite Oxidase enzyme. (I'm clicking here to go to a different page of this link, so I'll give the link for the above info)

[www.beatcfsandfms.org]

Sulfites are a big issue. You may not have heard of them, yet if you are experiencing CFS/FMS symptoms, you should be aware of how they work, what they do, and how they can affect you. Sulfite is sometimes referred to as "Sulphite". An example sulfite is sodium sulfite and metabisulfite, both of which contain SO3 ions.

Foods That Sometimes Contain Sulfites
Sulfites are a kind of food preservative. The following is a list of foods that sometimes contain sulfite preservatives: dried fruit, bottled lemon juice, bottled lime juice, red wine, molasses, sourcrout juice, grape juice (all colors), and yellow die #5 found in Doritoes.

How Sulfites can Hurt You
Sulfites can hurt you if your protective Sulfite Oxidase enzyme (a chemical that converts one chemical to another chemical) is low. Sulfite Oxidase converts sulfites to sulfates, which are not harmful. If your Sulfite Oxidase enzyme is down, the sulfite will swim around your blood and inhibit important enzymes such as Tyrosinase, polyphenoloxidase, and ascorbate oxidase. This can result in the impairment of the synthesis of Dopamine and the conversion of Dopamine to Noradrenaline, which can lead to neurological fatigue. For a review of Noradrenaline and brain chemistry, click here. Also, sulfites can inhibit 90% of lung ATP energy production (as noted in REFERENCE #18), can impair liver cell ATP energy production, and can deplete glutathione (chemical that helps the liver filter the blood and helps protect cell enzymes from damage). Anything that reduces your production of ATP energy can cause fatigue, since low levels of energy are synonymous with fatigue.

Things that can inhibit your protective Sulfite Oxidase enzyme
Things that can impair the protective sulfite oxidase are as follows: heavy metal molecules such as lead and mercury, Sulfa-drugs (e.g. a class of drugs within the sulfa group that can impair pterin synthesis, such as asthmatic inhalants and many antibiotics), molybdenum deficiency, proto-IX-porphyria (enzyme that makes blood inhibited), inherited genetic damage encoding of the SO-enzyme, severe B12-vitamin deficiency, and arrays of SO2/SO3-group containing drugs including DMPS (an Rx chelation drug).

Edmond Scientific Home Testing for Sulfite Sensitivity
Another home test involves purchasing SO3 ion sulfite-test sticks from Edmond Scientific (these $30/100 sticks may not be available on line, one may need to phone their optics division) and then measuring the urinary Sulfite level after feeling fatigued/coughy after ingesting sulfur containing foods such as saccharin, acesulfame-K, yellow # 5, or sulfite itself. One measures the sulfite level by urinating on the sulfite-test stick and looking at the resulting color. If one's sulfite level is greater than 10 ppm, they probably have a sulfite problem, in which case, it is recommended that they discuss this with a Doc that is familiar with Sulfites.

In some cases, Molybdenum, B12-vitamin, P5P-vitamin, B1-vitamin, and tetrahydrofolate supplementation has helped to boost the protective sulfite oxidase a bit. Also, if mercury or lead molecules have induced Protoporphoria (enzyme that makes blood inhibited), detoxifying those heavy metals can help as well. In some cases, the Protoporphoria is inherited, and this is considered incurable at this time. In any case, if the protective sulfite oxidase is down, one can make a great difference by avoiding sulfite containing foods.

[www.beatcfsandfms.org]

Anyway, it would seem that this all ties into my situation. Norepinephrine is what makes the heart beat strong when in a fight or flight situation and is a neurotransmitter for the sympathetic side. When I'm in flutter, my heart beat is faint and fast. I will have to pay particular attention to sulfites, as well as the infamous free glutamate. I wonder if these two fit in together somehow. I'm also convinced that the problem, at least in my situation, is a failing sympathetic system.

Richard

Thank You Richard, one of my first triggers were bacon, ham and hot dogs so I left out all food with sulfite in them inc. all processed lunch meat, I am also allergic to sulfide medicine, came down with a red rash all over my body after I was given sulfide meds for a urinary infection.
Thanks for the links I will look at them tomorrow (or later today :-) )

I also stay away from any food color like Yellow #5 and all FDC red # 40 ect.

Ella

Hello Richard, i want to compliment you on a clear and understandable explanation. I don't think i fall into the same category but at least i understand your situation a little better. That was a real long and technical post, but i was able to read all the way thru it and follow what you were saying. Good job.
Peggy

just curious where do you get those tests done? those are not the normal doc ordered blood tests? thanks

Richard,
Interesting posssible connection.

I have always been allergic to sulphites - especially those in red wine and in sulfite anti - biotics. I break out in a rash and become sick all over from those drugs.

I think your speculation about an imbalance between the sympathetic and vagal n. s. and a possible vagal dominance is food for serious thought.

Carol

Ella,

I remember you saying you were sensitive to sulfites. I know you do homeopathy, but do you supplement at all with regular vitamins, and how are you doing with your AF, since eliminating sulfites?

Peggy,

Thank goodness it was fairly simple for me to read, as well. Even though I post some studies here, that can be somewhat technical, I'm still struggling to understand all the info, as well. I have been noticing more and more people around me with sulfite sensitivities, partly because I'm asking the questions. I'm beginning to wonder if more people could have molybdenum (Mo) deficiencies by way of the other enzymes being deficient. By that I mean that there are three enzymes that need Mo; the xanthine oxidase, aldehyde oxidase and sulfite oxidase enzymes. I know Fran could possibly have had a Mo deficiency and her sister could, as well, because esophageal cancer can be from that, and her sister is suffering from that.

Debbie,

I got my testings through a doctor, not a naturopath, but it could be done through both. A friend's friend collapsed and was taken to the hospital, where they found her Mo levels to be critically low and the cause. Tell your doctor you want your Mo, B12 and folate levels checked, and you could ask about the vanilmandelic, but they may not know that one. Doctors can also do adrenal tests, as well. I'm not sure how accurate the doctor's tests are, however, because my doctor used Great Smokies, which is what more naturopaths use. The two tests that I refer to are the Metabolic analysis and the Intracellular red blood cell. You can go wo www.gsdl.com and read about their testings or even print them out and take them to your doctor. He could order them for you. The test results come with a full explanation of what is wrong. You may want to check with your insurance coverage, however.

It was late last night, and I was tired, so I made a few typos. Sorry. I forgot to mention that when I was on beta blockers, that block adrenalin (epinephrine), it caused my situation to be horrible. As I've said before, I couldn't hardly finish dinner, and my heart would start to skip beats, and then when sitting my heartrate would plummet. I would get up and down, trying to settle the heart. I would awake constantly in AF. My daytime episodes turned into nightly episodes, which made me think I was vagal. Before I was diagnosed, however, my few episodes only happened during the day. So blocking adrenalin was devastating to me, because those pathways were my problem in the first place. If any of you remember, when 9/11 happened, there was someone here that posted about the increases in the number of AF incidences in New York. It pushed their adrenals over the edge, causing AF.

So, I'm off to do more studying in this area, and get even a better understanding.

Richard

Richard,

Do I just print out the first page of the website "www.gsdl.com" and take it to my doctor? Even though I've had afib for over thirty years, I'm still a novice as to how to coordinate information from the internet with my doctor.

Glen,

Went arriving at the gsdl.com site, go to laboratory assessments and look under the different tests, i.e. metabolic and intracellular erythrocytes (packed red blood cells). Then copy this info. along with a phone number for Great Smokies and take that to your doctor. You might even want to do a hair analysis, as well. You can do some reading at Great Smokies about all the testings available, but I recommend the above three. Tell your doctor that these test results give full explanations of the results, and that you do want them. If your doctor prescribes these tests, then maybe the insurance company will cover them, however in some cases, as in mine, the lab has to be within your state, therefore I had to pay out of pocket, but it was worth every penny. I don't remember the cost, but I could look it up if you want.

Richard

Glen:
If you figure out how to coordinate information from the internet with your doctor, please tell us all. They don't like to be confronted with information from the internet, for some reason. Makes you wonder whether they really want their patients to be well informed. Does anyone's doctor say "Wonderful" when you say "I found it on my support group on the computer". Soemtimes I think the ideal patient justs nods dumbly, takes their prescriptions in hand and schedules that next appointment, and pays of course.

Pam

Pam,

You said a mouthful. Your statement exactly describes my treatment down throught the years by my cardiologist. And believe it or not he is one of the good guys.

Pam, (and all)

I don't know if it will make a difference, but my electrophysiologist wrote all my information down, pertaining to my deficiencies, including this site. She was very open to our discussion, thought my diet was great, and thought she might try recommending it to her other patients. I told her I wanted a liver and kidney function test, of which she obliged, as well, but I don't have the results as of yet. I know hospitals must test for molybdenum deficiences, because the lady who collapsed was found to be extremely low at the hospital. I truly believe that the more knowledgable you become in knowing what tests you want, and you present your case of why, then they will be helpful. But if not, then change doctors. I know you are very knowledgable Pam, so get every test you can, to see if all your organs are working. I have to say, that since dropping the larger doses of folic acid and upping my B12 to 2mg, NOT mcg., and it needs to be methyl B12, I have seen a remarkable improvement in how I feel, and I was feeling pretty well before.

Richard

Very interesting Richard, Being as that I've been a home winemaker since 1986, I've had many many oppurtunities to inhale a snootful of both potasium metabisulphite and sodium metabisulphite which are both used to sterilise the wine making equipment as well as adding small amounts to wine for killing of bacteria that could cause spoilage. Believe me when I say that a snootful can really knock your socks off. It's kinda like getting a sniff of amonia. I wander if it can have a cummulative effect?

I too believe that adrenal insufficiency is playing a major role in my afib. Unfortunately for me I haven't done the exhaustive testing that you have accomplished so I have no real idea what is low or what is high etc. My ND does have me supplementing a product called STRS which is a multi vitamin mineral formula for fatigue(adrenal support)from NaturPharm. Emotionally I feel much better than a month ago but my afib still remains relatively the same. Still waiting for the results from my hair sample.

Love those Happpy pills (B12). ;~)

Adrian v49

Merry Christmas

Hey Adrian,

You might be served by taking 300mcg. of molybdenum for about a month, or a bit longer. Talk with your ND. Carlsons makes a glycinate form, but its in 500mcg tablets, which is what I'm taking.

Merry Christmas to you, too.
Richard

I am not an afibber but was led to your article in my search for information regarding sulfite sensitivity. Sulfites have made me increasingly miserable and ill over the years, I now realize. Certain symptons brought things to a head and two different allergy & asthma experts were not able to offer any explanation for my continually worsening symptons. Oddly, my "expert" in allergy & asthma from Georgetown University Hospital was not even interested in what I found out on the internet, afterall, he could not treat it. My allergies have improved a hundred fold (no more shots), no more gastrointestinal problems, no more painfully swollen upper lip, no more fatique, and my asthma is well under control...a new lease on life! My main treatment? Stop eating foods with additives and preservatives which is very difficult to do in America. I went to organic foods and I am involving my Internist with keeping sulfa drugs out! However, thanks to your article and various postings, I now have a new direction to take with various tests that may help me further understand the sulfite sensitivity, my metabolism, and molybdenum levels. By the way, I have two first cousins who are affibers...