Is Afib going to Get Worse

I am 47, vagal afibber, having been diagnosed with Afib early this year.
While the profile of my Afib changed somewhat over the course of the last year, it has been pretty consistent at about one episode every two to three weeks, converting within 12 hours using flec. on demand. The only
time episodes were more frequent was when I was using flec. daily, but
upon switching to on demand use only, I returned to my normal pattern.
I did go one stretch of seven weeks and one of four weeks in total NSR
but other than that, the pattern has remained the same.

My situation is very tolerable but I hate to think it will get much worse
any time soon. I have heard that things usually get worse over time.
Is this the case? Is it possible that I can stabilize at this pattern and stay
that way for years? I realize that the condition varies greatly from one to the next, I guess I would just like to hear that there is a decent chance that things will stabilize.

Susan--

You do have an opportunity to decrease or even eliminate your afib episodes by following the nutritional and lifestyle recommendations which appear here. Basically they include magnesium and potassium supplements, diet improvement, avoiding trigger foods such as alcohol and caffein, and stress reduction.

I deleted that portion of my post in which I stated that I have made
many of the changes discussed here. Besides, most of the people on this board follow many of the suggestions outlined and I am assuming that they
still experience Afib or they wouldn't be spending so much time on this board.

I am curious about the experiences of others who do what they can
to help the situation but have breakthroughs. Will they get worse over
time in many cases? or is it more likely that the situation will stay the same
over many years?

Susan, of course i can only speak for myself, and for all i know things may still change for the worse, but personally i seem to be getting better not worse. It's certainly not due to medication because i'm not taking any. My diet is not perfectly paleo but as nearly so as i can manage, with considerable lapses. I still don't eat enough green leafy stuff, i think. I eat out sometimes and that means usually a baked potato and sometimes [horrors, woe is me] a piece of apple pie with ice cream on it.
For a potassium supplement i use 2 glasses a day of low-sodium V8 juice. I supplement with fish oil, vitamin E, a cal-mag-vit.D-zinc capsule, beta carotene, garlic, vit. C, a Twinlab Once daily without iron cap, and Carlson's Mg glycinate. Since adding the V8 juice [maybe 2-3 months ago] i have not had even a minor few minutes of afib. Knocking on wood as i write.
As for why i spend so much time on this board, afib and the fear of it have ruled my life for some years now. I want to know why this is happening so i can put a stop to it. Medical science does not seem to have an answer for me. Other people with afib seem to be the ones who are motivated to research it. The people who post to this board are busy experimenting with things that might work, and reporting successes and failures. Each of us has individual strengths and our combined resources and intelligence do produce tangible results.
Some people here do seem to be getting worse, afib-wise. Others seem to be getting better, and a few report that they don't get afib any more. Fran and Erling come to mind. Do searches of the archived posts with those 2 names and i think you might be encouraged. It is possible to get some control over your life again.
Peggy

Hi, Susan

I am in the "getting better" category of VAFibbers. It got worse over time, now it is better. I feel that I am on the road to a complete cure.

I developed afib about 10 years ago. After a two year period of 8-10 hour episodes of afib hitting almost every other night, I now go for weeks without any break throughs. I am now able to document to some extent why occasional break throughs occur. So much for "remodeling."

I take no drugs of any kind. A combination of high doses of magnesium glycinate, other supplements, change of diet to mostly Paleo, V-8, slowing my life down and therapy for stress have all helped. I believe that magnesium really turned it around.

You have to get in touch with your mind and body. Mindfulness is my personal catch word.

You have to do your homework by reading the posts on this site, reading books on nutrition and Han's book.


The people on this board may have different approaches, but you will find that they are all very supportive.

There definitely is hope.

Carol

Susan--

I don't know how many of the posters here have experienced benefit from following the nutrition and lifestyle changes which have been recommended.

Some of us have kept our afib in complete or near-complete remission. We continue to read and contribute to the discussion, I think, because we have been helped and it is rewarding to us to try to help others.

You say that you have adopted "many" of the suggestions mentioned here. This may not be enough to deal with your afib. You may have to adopt ALL of the recommendations mentioned here and you may have to pay very close attention to the way in which you do adopt the recommendations. For example your magnesium supplement method may need to be carefully thought-out and implemented. If you are taking supplements and have improved your diet, you may (I think you WILL) have to eliminate coffee and alcohol. If you have tried "everything" with regard to diet and nutritional supplements, you may have to work hard to reduce stress in your live by learning how to relax or how not to worry. If you do not exercise daily, you will benefit from doing so.

I am convinced that if you follow each and every suggestion here, you will notice improvement and potentially complete remission. On the other hand, I do not think that following all the recommendations mentioned here will necessarily be quick or easy. There is no magic pill or easy solution, but there certainly is hope. I think that you have a great deal of potential because your afib seems to be, like mine, not yet as frequent as that suffered by many here.

A good way to use this bulletin board is to explore each nutritional and lifestyle change with others who have already improved their situation. This may be a slow and tedious process, but if you persist, you are very likely to succeed. Buona fortuna a te.

Susan,
I think that most people's Afib will progressively worsen. But I do feel that you can help halt that natural progression by taking steps to avoid situations and triggers that are relevent to you. Through weight reduction,(not any particular diet but basic portion control) blood pressure control, stopping alcohol(which I am convinced was a major trigger for me)and reducing stress in my life, I have been able to stall the "beast".For how long who knows, my last bout was December 2001, I am on medication Flecainide 50mg twice a day, but thoroughly enjoy my 3 large mugs of coffee a day!!.Maybe I've just been lucky but the afib "fear" is still with me every day.

Good health,

John.

My own take on Afib getting worse is as follows

I first got Af when I was 22. It took 9 years for the Dr's to diagnose and as I also passed out and convulsed sometimes with it I ended up with the wrong diagnosis. After 10 years on digoxin and a year on various anytiarrhythmics and beta blockers I ended up with chronic AF and absolutely no quality of life. I had followed what the Dr's said - I thought they were the experts and ended up sicker - just waiting for it all to end suddenly one night with one of my seizures. I was terrified of what was happening.

I decided to take matters into my own hands. Starting with elimination of all processed foods and only eating fresh food from scratch with special focus on nutrient content of certain vits and minerals I turned my life around. This Decmember I will have been AF free for two years......

It does take commitment. The commitment you put in relects what you get back. I also think that depending on how bad your episodes are reflects on the type of commitment you want to put in. I was determined.

Fran

In response to Fran's post:

I think you are quite right. I haven't thought to discuss here the inadequacy of the conventional medical view of afib. My last two episodes of afib were treated by the cardiology service at one of the best HMOs in the U.S. (Kaiser Permanente in Oakland, California). I took a full series of tests including echocardiogram and treadmill-stress. My heart function is normal and my heart shows only slight effects of aging (I am 59 years old).

My cardiologist was able only to offer the advice that my afib might get worse and that if it did there were various drug regimens which would help. My cardiologist knew nothing about the role of mineral nutrition, stress, diet or other factors in regular discussion here. He did mention being careful with alcohol but did not mention caffeine. I referred him to information regarding the role of magnesium in arrhthmia and he showed some interest.

In short, the discussions here regarding treatment of afib are state-of-the-art. Conventional cardiology cannot address the complexity of a disorder such as LAF for several reasons: LAF is a complex, multifactored problem. It is not a major killer and it is not amenable to a magic-pill treatment. Thus, funding for study of LAF at the big Federally-funded institutes is unlikely; study by drug companies is unlikely (magnesium pills just can't be made expensive enough).

The conventional medical model is very good for some diseases. For many others, it is less-than-useful. The very important area of preventative medicine is but a very small part of current mainstream medical inquiry.

Readers of this bulletin board do have a choice. They can wait and do nothing and let their afib get worse over time. At some point, then, they can consult their cardiologists in hope of finding a magic pill treatment.

Or readers can follow in the path of many others and take responsibility for their own health.

Michael,

Wish it were that simple. I follow the supplement and good portion
of dietary recs on this board. I don't drink alcohol or caffeine. I almost
wish I did so that I could stop and see a big difference. Oh well.

Susan,
I forgot to mention EIGHT GLASSES OF WATER A DAY, no less.

Did you tell us what your daily magnesiuim regimen is? Please do.

Carol

Susan

Have you discovered whether you are intolerant to any foods? A good diet for one is NOT a good diet for others. We are all unique. I spent my whole younger life thinking how lucky I was as I could eat anything I wanted. Little did I know that intorance - that starts off as subclinical (ie no noticeable symptoms - especially if you've had them all your life - you think they're normal) escalates into chronic disease in the long run. I see AF as a portender - a warning that things aren't quite right. We are so conditioned by mainstream nutrition that we accept blindly that we all need whole grains, no saturated fat, very little meat protein etc etc. Where as some of us are intolerant to grains, need vast amounts of protein and even some saturated fat!!

It is an ongoing process discovering the foods you need for your own personal metabolic type. I hope you persue this.

Fran

Susan,

If you told us exactly what the supplements are that you are taking and the amounts, typical meals or diet plan, water intake, food intolerances, stress reduction methods you are following, we could perhaps help you.

Carol

Carol,

Fish Oil- Six Grams Per Day (I find it very beneficial for general health other than blood thinning for Afib)
CoQ10- 240 mg. per day
Vit C- 1000 mg per day
copper- 4 mg. per day
Vit E- 800 IU
Vit B 100 mg. complex
Beta carotene 25,000 i.u.
chromium 200 mcg.
selenium 200 mcg.

I recently started the magnesium but found that it made me very tired.
I was using Mg. Glycinate by KAL 400 mg. per tablet. I am a little confused about how much mg. glycinate to take in order to get to the 800 mg. of elemental mg. that is recommended.

Diet- low fat, medium complex carbos, high protein. lots of fruits
and vegetables.

Try to dring couple of liters a day of water, but don't always succeed.
I work out regularly- six mile runs a few times per week and weight training. Resting phase of exercise has been responsible for a number of episodes. The exercise is great for stress reduction.

No known food interances.

Susan--

Other minerals some people here find helpful include potassium. You may already be eating enough fruit (bananas, tomatoes) to provide you with what you need.

I also take the KAL "400" magnesium glycinate. If you read the label (I had to be advised to do this, so it is easy to overlook) you will see that each tablet contains 200 mg of elemental magnesium. Two tablets daily provide the "400" which is, somewhat misleadingly, stated on the label.

I would not avoid taking the magnesium--it may well be the critical nutrient that you need to reduce your afib problems. I think that my magnesium supplementation alone is responsible for my afib remission. I have in the past noticed that magnesium had an effect on my energy level. I would suggest that this may be a symptom of a deficiency, but that is just a guess.

You might start taking just one KAL tablet daily, with a meal, and see how you fare for a few days. Then increase your magnesium intake to a maximum of perhaps 600 mg daily, in divided doses, increasing by 200 mg every few days. I think you may well notice an improvement in your afib pattern after just a week or two taking 400 to 600 mg of magnesium daily. Others here have noticed major improvement in a very short time period.

San Fran Michael, that was very well put about this board representing state-of-the-art afib treatment. I think you are just exactly right about that.
Peggy

Susan:

I really admire the great lengths posters are going to in order to heal themselves naturally. However, if you've already tried that route and it isn't working, there is another way to look at this disease.

That being a congenital birth defect that is now manifesting itself.

People are being cured with pulmonary vein ablations. Yes, there are significant risks. And because the procedure has only been done for about 5 years, no one knows how long the cure will last.

Good luck,
njb

On ablation, I agree with the "if you've already tried that route and it isn't working" approach, but I believe that in many cases it will take several years to find the right approach and determine whether or not it works. I have been at it for nearly 4 years now.
The problem of finding the right approach is complicated by the fact that AF may be a symptom of any number of problems. For example, I turned out to have fairly impressive levels of mercury. I would suggest that anyone with lone AF have their mercury levels tested to rule this out (it is not difficult to get mercury contamination, particularly if you eat fish; probably got mine from eating too much tuna fish).

Susan,

Getting the body back on track through nutrition and supplements takes time. As far as I am concerned, magnesium supplementation is the closest thing afibbers have for a magic pill. But, undoubtedly, there are many other vitamins and minerals that are out of adjustment, too, from not- quite right- nutrition and depletion from stress.

I totally agree with what Fran says about the cumulative effect of marginal or bad eating on one's health, resulting in the manifestation of afib and a host of other possible diseases and disorders at some point in life. I agree wholeheartedly with Fran when she says that afib is a "portent." It is a signal from the body/ mind that things are not right.

There is also the cumulative effect of stress, too, and stress that is underlying from early life experiences. Exercise is good for immediate relief, but it takes more than exercise to get into capital "S" long term stress and anxiety.

What is your calcium to magnesium ratio?

With respect to your question about a congenital basis for afib, it may be that "neurological or wiring "abnormalities" and fibrosis may not be that uncommon in the general population, but not all of people with these conditions develop afib. This thinking is along the lines of Dr. John Sarno's (Healing Back Pain) observations that if you x - rayed the spinal columns of a random sampling of old people, you would find a high incidence of anomalies of the spine - protruding discs, etc. You would therefore expect to find most old people in constant pain. However, few old people complain of pain from the spine.

Only rarely, does afib not worsen.

The thing that worries me about a congenital defect only manifesting itself now is:

Something had to trigger the congenital fault to manifest itself as AF later in life. IF we were born in AF then I would accept some faulty 'wiring' syndrome. But to my knowledge not one of us has suffered this from birth. So whilst I accpet that we probably have a congenital tendency towards it, it seems to me that something else between birth and onset of AF was at fault to trigger it to start. Various stressors come to mind, including diet. I speculate that it is purely environmental, including an overdose of mental and physical stress.

Just my thoughts

Fran

I agree with your reasoning, Fran.

I still would like to see the results of autopsies of an equal number of the hearts and pulmonary veins of a LARGE sampling of MANY afibbers and non - affibers to determine the connection between "so-called" abnormal findings and the incidence of afib. I wouldn't be surprised if abnormal findings showed up in significant numbers amoung non -afibbers.

Victor,
It is interesting that you were found to "have fairly impressive levels of mercury." How was it tested? I am not aware of a regular clinical lab. routinely testing for serum mercury...or cellular mercury. Of course, it's been awhile...public health labs. likely do. How were you tested? Mercury or lead or any of the toxic heavy metals are harmful. It would be interesting to know if higher mercury levels could be due solely to ingestion of seafood.

I remember playing with blobs of mercury as a child....since it was fascinating to see it separate and roll over a surface in small balls of liquid. Of course, at that time, my parents would never have allowed it if they had had any idea that it was toxic. To my knowledge it came from power transmission equipment my father worked with. He would bring it home in a jar to show us how heavy it was plus other unusual properties. Char

Susan:

If I were in your position, having read all these responses (however well intentioned) I'd be COMPLETELY confused. So at the risk of adding further to that confusion here's my 2 cents worth....

My father first had AF symptoms 20 years ago, and he's now in permanent AFIB. But it's so mild that he doesn't even notice it. I had my first episode about 4 years ago (I'm 50) and, thanks to this and other sites, I've tried a bit of everything. The only thing I can conclude is that you should ignore any advice that starts with " completely cut out XYZ". I tried 'em all and Fran is right, we are all different. I'm currently on my 4th glass of wine tongiht, but I know it won't trigger an episode. I gave up alcohol for a while and still had the episodes. For me, alcohol is not the trigger. But for others? Maybe. I went 2 years (like Fran) without any episodes at all, and I thought I had it licked, but then they started up again. The good thing, for me, was that they became much milder, shorter, and thus more bearable.

AF, ordinarily, WILL get worse, as it did with my father, but then he did next to nothing to analyse why it was happening, so I don't feel it's inevitable in my case (and if it does, you can bet I'll be first in line for an ablation!). Keep a log, so that you can make a connection between triggers and (most importantly IMHO) state of mind.

Coping with it (and by that I mean not flipping out, and rushing to hospital, like I used to), is perhaps more important. I had my first episode for months 2 nights ago. I'd had a stressful day, I've been doing a lot of travelling, I'd had wheat (pasta) for supper, and I forgot to take my flecainide pill when I should have done. I woke at 4 a.m. (never had one at that time before, but that's how this thing works), but couldn't remember exactly when it started and stopped. 2 years ago I would have, timed it precisely, spent the next few days frantically trying to understand what I'd done 'wrong' and worrying when the next episode would strike. Truth is, it could've been any of those things, but for me the most important thing is stopping this thing from dominating your every waking thought. That way, even if it happens, your spirit doesn't suffer.

I'll keep taking the Flecainide, and avoiding wheat, and stress, and over-exertion. But if I had to pick one thing which is common among those of us who have achieved a measure of control over this thing, it would be the magnesium.

Good luck, and don't let it determine your future!

David,

Sensible words indeed. I had an episode (my fourth in 4 years) last Sat night and for the first time did NOT rush panicking to hospital. The episode settled down to a not-too-uncomfortable status and self-converted after 2.9 hrs - the shortest of my AF career.

BTW, would you have an ablation in the UK (NHS) (I know that Newcastle Freeman Hospital are well regarded for ablations in the UK) or go further afield (Paris, Italy, USA) and pay??

Also David, I'd be interested to read a brief history of your episodes to date in terms of frequency and duration and time of onset........ if you don't mind sharing/taking the time.

Cheers,

Mike F.

Oh yes David,

And how soon did you start taking meds??

Mike:
As I don't want to hog this with threads that may be of limited interest, I'd be happy to share my e-mail address with you: daveprice@blueyonder.co.uk
mail me and I can attach my episode log!!