calcium and arrhythmias

Hello,

I am an afib & flutter-free pt about 3 yrs. Today I got flutter again. Long story short, I wondered how this struck out of the blue this morning while I was tending some plants outside after 1 cup decaf & a bit of my GF blueberry muffin. Beats were 214.

Tonight when I got home from hospital, I was getting my supplements out of weekly container & when I saw the calcium pills in my lunch area, I remembered I just started that last week on advice from endo bec of recent bone scan showing a bit worse osteopenia than last year. I think I remember Jackie telling me she could not take calcium bec of arrhythmias. Cal - excitatory; Mag - calming. I was only told to take 500 mg a day. I had not taken it yet today, but when I saw it later, had to wonder about it since it was the main change that I could think of lately other than stress. I still take mag, but all at night instead of being able to split it up lunch & dinner/bedtime.

It was nice being free of arrhythmia for 3 yrs!!! Everyone said flutter would come back at some point & they were right. I have not had to take blood thinner or antiarrhythmic all this time, just take carvedilol 6.25 mg b.i.d.

I will check in tomorrow to see if anyone responds.

Thanks for tuning in.

Hi Madeline,

Steve Carr is probably the biggest advocate around calcium and afib. Here is a search on his posts: [www.afibbers.org]

A post of Dean's: [www.afibbers.org]

A general search on the topic here: [www.afibbers.org]

In my case, I've had afib since 2004. After a 2 1/2 month episode, I worked out a plan that kept afib in remission such that my AF burden was around 0.02%. In 2012, this got materially worse. I was going through a divorce and thought it divorce stress. However I was eating a low carb diet, so thought that stress eating wheels of brie were a free pass. After about 14 months, I took the time reread the calcium literature and look at what I'd been doing. I realized the calcium in the brie could be the culprit. I quit the brie and my afib control immediately went back to its previously good level. The brie was the only dairy I ate and I eat none today. In 2021 I started eating some plant foods with higher calcium levels. 2021 was also a bad year, and I quit those foods, though there may have been other causes. I'm now 29 weeks as of Wednesday without afib, so think I've worked this one out again.

Here is a book that might interest you on osteoporosis. Gives a good explanation of the loading needed to stimulate muscle growth. I do this with impact loading (using my phone's accelerometer to insure I get at least 4.2 times my weight on jumps with hard landing). This may not be appropriate for all. In the book they talk about machines they've developed that can apply the load without injuring people and you may only need to do this 2x/month to get the effect. It is a US$ 0.99 Kindle book: [www.amazon.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2022 05:18PM by GeorgeN.

My AFib or AFultter is very sensitive to Calcium or Vitamin D supplement. My episode can be triggered by a Calcium-fortified milk or a dose of Vitamin D 1000 IU. Regular milk seems ok. I would not take any Ca supplement. Not sure if Vitamin K2-MK7 can help stop the AF flare up triggered by Ca, since Vitamin K2-MK7 shuffles the Calcium from the heart blood vessels into the bones, where we want Calcium to go.

Brie is high in sodium that could had contributed to the afib

Madeline,
I think you are on the right track. Any Ca or D3 will soon put me in afib - like clockwork. Anything excitatory for me will trigger afib, e.g. sugar, caffeine, food additives... Its challenging, but keeping your lifestyle and eating habits as peaceful and natural as possible is a sure path to less afib and better longterm health in general. I would be happy to go into more detail about what I have learned over the last 17 years regarding afib control if you want to talk further (541-350-5177). I am also a retired paramedic and have decent medical medical background and desire to help others.

Jeff

Quote
Afibber20
My AFib or AFultter is very sensitive to Calcium or Vitamin D supplement. My episode can be triggered by a Calcium-fortified milk or a dose of Vitamin D 1000 IU. Regular milk seems ok. I would not take any Ca supplement. Not sure if Vitamin K2-MK7 can help stop the AF flare up triggered by Ca, since Vitamin K2-MK7 shuffles the Calcium from the heart blood vessels into the bones, where we want Calcium to go.

I have seen an endocrinologist and have osteoporosis. At this time, I am doing exercises she gave me and not taking a calcium supplement except what is in my multivitamin I take.
The rest of the calcium comes from milk sources, which she said was fine at this point, I have never considered calcium a trigger for the AFIB.

If I stopped the calcium, that would leave to the recommendation that I take one of the osteoporosis drugs. I have read the side effects and issues with those…..I have chosen not to consider them.

Quote
susan.d
Brie is high in sodium that could had contributed to the afib

Correct, brie is 200 mg sodium/oz, which would be 1.6 g for an 8 oz wheel. I eat a very unprocessed, whole foods diet and actually supplement with 1.5 tsp of sea salt per day, putting it with 2 tsp (4g K+) of potassium citrate in 750 ml of water and drunk over the day. I also salt my food and cook with it. The sodium in the 1.5 tsp supplemental sea salt is 2.7 g.. I shoot for >5 g of sodium/day (12.5 of salt as NaCl). This has never been an afib issue for me, though I certainly realize that it can be for some people.

I'm currently at 29 weeks without afib. I wore a recording monitor last night and average 2.5 PAC's/hour. For me, this might as well be zero. So my heart seems very stable at the moment.

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GeorgeN

I'm currently at 29 weeks without afib. I wore a recording monitor last night and average 2.5 PAC's/hour. For me, this might as well be zero. So my heart seems very stable at the moment.

What recording monitor are you using?

Thank you all for your replies. I eat cheese, mostly cheddar. Sometimes 1/2 & 1/2 in my decaf. I don't think I have a problem with dairy & my heart - just wondered if calcium pills BlueBonnet brand 250 mg ea & I started taking 2 at lunch could have possibly made a difference. I know triggers may also not be a factor.

And to add, most responded concerning afib & it was not afib, just flutter. No afib in 3 yrs & until yesterday I could say the same for flutter.

Thank you.

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colindo
What recording monitor are you using?

I use a Polar H10 chest transmitter strap connected to an app on my phone, HRV Logger. HRV Logger will export the beat to beat times in milliseconds to files on Dropbox on my phone. I pick up those files and on a laptop and create a file that an ancient Polar program will read & graph (& zoom the data nicely).. This is a techy solution and over all the years I'm been doing this, very few folks have wanted to tackle it. I'm happy to go into more detail if someone is interested. Early on, you could get a Polar watch that would capture the data & communicate to their software on a PC. A lot more folks did that, but that was ~15 years ago.

Vitamin D3 and K2 MK7 is my go to. I do have Osteoporosis.

I am a bit wary of Calcium supplements as the jury is still out on the effect of supplementation of Calcium on the heart.

That said , we are all unique in how we experience AF and other arrhythmias. In fact while typing this I’ve just experienced a near faint, nausea, and a very fast HR, brief but scary. I believe it’s SVT. My EP would disagree. 🙂
Had to stagger out to the kitchen and grab some water,



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2022 09:31AM by JoyWin.

Quote
Afibber20
My AFib or AFultter is very sensitive to Calcium or Vitamin D supplement. My episode can be triggered by a Calcium-fortified milk or a dose of Vitamin D 1000 IU. Regular milk seems ok. I would not take any Ca supplement. Not sure if Vitamin K2-MK7 can help stop the AF flare up triggered by Ca, since Vitamin K2-MK7 shuffles the Calcium from the heart blood vessels into the bones, where we want Calcium to go.

ok what's up with this D thing- I noticed that as well! I though I was in crazy town till it happened 3 times. I need to re-read this thread more. I still don't understand the why...

Quote
Jeff W
Madeline,
I think you are on the right track. Any Ca or D3 will soon put me in afib - like clockwork. Anything excitatory for me will trigger afib, e.g. sugar, caffeine, food additives... Its challenging, but keeping your lifestyle and eating habits as peaceful and natural as possible is a sure path to less afib and better longterm health in general. I would be happy to go into more detail about what I have learned over the last 17 years regarding afib control if you want to talk further (541-350-5177). I am also a retired paramedic and have decent medical medical background and desire to help others.

Jeff

I am really curious on the D as I said in the last comment. I thought I was imagining it until it happened for the 3rd time. I wonder why on that. Do you have any idea?

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bettylou4488
I am really curious on the D as I said in the last comment. I thought I was imagining it until it happened for the 3rd time. I wonder why on that. Do you have any idea?

D helps you absorb more calcium.

I take Vitamin K2-MK7 along with vitamin D 3 and this combo doesn’t exacerbate Afib for me. The Vitamin K2-MK7 may well make the difference.

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Daisy
I take Vitamin K2-MK7 along with vitamin D 3 and this combo doesn’t exacerbate Afib for me. The Vitamin K2-MK7 may well make the difference.

Same for me. I'm still taking Mg year long and D3+K2MK7 in winter months, for it's said being good, but I doubt it has any effect on my HR.
After more than 6 1/2 years of paroxysmal afib and lots of experimentations, the only stuff I'm sure is really bad for me is alcohol.

George is correct on D helping the absorption of CA.
I also have osteopenia and get my D from 20 minutes of sun when available. According to my labs it does work quite well. Not as convenient as a pill but limitations seem to go with afib.

I never found a relationship between D3 and afib. I have been taking 2000 mg twice a day for over 10 years, and I do so because I have a long history of skin cancer (more than 30 removed). So, if I am in the sun, I use SPF 50 sunscreen. I play a lot of golf, so I go through a lot of sunscreen.

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Jeff W
George is correct on D helping the absorption of CA.
I also have osteopenia and get my D from 20 minutes of sun when available. According to my labs it does work quite well. Not as convenient as a pill but limitations seem to go with afib.

So you are saying that sun vitamin D is not affecting your afib but the D3 pill does? I am still not sure if the pill does affect mine but 3 times it happened so I stopped using it. But I do sit in the sun when I can. (Which in Michigan waxes and wanes).

My primary care doctor went to Harvard for medical school and then received a degree at another university in nutrition. He printed out a bone broth recipe (below), which I follow to get my calcium naturally. His recommendation is one cup a day.

[ibb.co]

Here is a post on other thoughts on osteoporosis.

There is a two-part interview with Menaquinone 7 researcher Leon Schurgers, PhD, (2009) that
details the function of the MK7 and lowering the risk of arterial calcifications.

He starts the discussion with this intro:

We will discuss the “calcium paradox,” by which so many people are having harmful calcium deposits form in their arteries at the same time that calcium content of the bones is decreasing. This calcium paradox is not a result of too little calcium in the diet, but of too little vitamin K2 that largely controls where the calcium goes. The objective is to keep calcium in our bones, not in our arteries. This is the role of vitamin K—putting calcium in its place.

Part 1 [wholefoodsmagazine.com]

Part 2 [www.drpasswater.com]

Jackie

Quote
Jackie
There is a two-part interview with Menaquinone 7 researcher Leon Schurgers, PhD, (2009) that
details the function of the MK7 and lowering the risk of arterial calcifications.

He starts the discussion with this intro:

We will discuss the “calcium paradox,” by which so many people are having harmful calcium deposits form in their arteries at the same time that calcium content of the bones is decreasing. This calcium paradox is not a result of too little calcium in the diet, but of too little vitamin K2 that largely controls where the calcium goes. The objective is to keep calcium in our bones, not in our arteries. This is the role of vitamin K—putting calcium in its place.

Part 1 [wholefoodsmagazine.com]

Part 2 [www.drpasswater.com]

Jackie

Interesting that in part 1 he mentions
"On the other hand, calcitonin (a hormone produced by the parafollicaular cells [C cells] of the thyroid gland) acts to decrease calcium concentration when levels are high."

Dr. Svetlana Reilly of Oxford university has discovered that the heart also producers calcitonin but in much higher levels and that afibbers have much less calcitonin than non afibbers.
[www.rdm.ox.ac.uk]

Calcitonin is activated by vitamin K2.
[dralexrinehart.com]

I should add that Natto is very high in vitamin K2



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2022 04:38PM by colindo.