My 3 year experience with Natto. (Vit K2 connection to NSR)

Natto food in NOT Nattokinase.

May 1st 2018 was when I first started to eat natto. I must say I was a bit apprehensive at first because of the criticism about its smell and slimy texture. It was off putting for sure. But not that bad at all.

My History.
I have been an afibber for 12 years now and my afib history is much the same as most other afibbers. Starting with one event then 6 months later another etc. Until I was getting them monthly, sometimes 2 and 3 times a month.
  
My Doctor put me on the usual drugs and nothing worked. He had me on Flecainide for 3 months, that just bound me up, he then gave me another pill to fix that. That combination didn't do anything for me except give me vibration in the chest. 
My Doctor didn't know what that could be. I wore a monitor for 7 days and during that time it showed NSR.
I thought I was having 1:1 atrioventricular conduction, so I stopped taking Flecainide, and the vibration stopped. 
So to cut a long story short the drugs didn't work for me but gave lots of side effects, including ED (erectile dysfunction) which I didn't appreciate.

That's when I knew I needed to try alternative measures and try and reduce these events. 
I took the usual supplements Jackie recommended, still take them today. I tried ginger for a while, I tried all sorts of things, even stopped drinking alcohol and lived like a monk for 3 months. Nothing reduced my afib events. 

Then I read Dean's success with natto and PM him and he talked me into giving it a try.
(Some of Deans Posts [www.afibbers.org])
As I said I had my first meal of natto was on the 1st of May 2018. (I take one packet of natto every 2nd day.) Two weeks later, I had afib. Then I went for 2 months without afib. Then 4 months.

My experience wasn't as instant as that of Dean's and I wondered why.
I thought maybe I wasn't taking enough magnesium so I added another gram a day thinking it can't do me any harm, after all, GeorgeN was taking 4 grams a day and that helped him. Unfortunately it cause me to have 3 afib events 1 to 2 weeks apart, I stopped that and went back to having 4 months between events. 

Then Steve Carr came along with his low calcium - high vitamin D protocol.  
I had a vitamin D test done and was deficient, so started taking 10,000 IU a day which was nowhere near his recommendation and before long I had afib again.
I reduced my vitamin D intake, this time to 5000 IU every 2nd day. On the same day I take Natto.

I asked Dean if he could get a vitamin D test done, because where he lived,  he was getting more sunshine than I was. 

The results showed a big difference. I was 50 nmol/L (20 ng/mL) and he was 90 nmol/L (36 ng/mL), which is considered ideal for afibbers.

Since January last year I have been taking 5000IU of vitamin D and one packet of natto every 2nd day. In that time I have had one afib event and that was when my daughter in law suddenly died last September, otherwise I have been afib free.

I can live with that.


We have a theory why this works but will keep that for another post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2021 05:06PM by colindo.

Great news Colin!

Yes we are all different. I tried natto food soon after Dean's original success 15? years ago. Found out it did not agree with my digestion after I'd been eating it for around 9 months & went on a trip without it. My digestion improved materially. I don't recall it having an impact on my afib one way or the other. I react to many foods, so I wasn't surprised.

George

That is very interesting, Colin! Thank you for sharing these details of your natto journey. Do you also take nattokinase at any time? Or get it all from the natto itself?

I very much look forward to the post with the theory.

kim

Quote
PoetKim
Do you also take nattokinase at any time?

Yes, I take nattokinase for blood thinning night and morning.

Hello Colin – Congratulations on your continued success with the natto food. Great news. I’m also pleased that your vitamin D intake has helped. You’ll may recall that the year before I developed AF (1994), I had also learned my Vitamin D level was very low – (18) - and definitely was responsible for the muscle pain and weakness I had developed.

Back then, it was rare to have a doctor checking vitamin D levels. Fortunately, that began to change although it seems that, even now, quite often the patient still has to request the test. I’m not aware of whether Steve Carr recommends also taking the Menaquinone 7 form of Vitamin K2 when higher dosages of Vitamin D are routinely taken, but the literature indicates it’s important to do that to help avoid arterial calcifications.

There’s a wealth of info on that topic offered by Cees Vermeer and Leon Schurgers – PhD researchers, University of Maastricht, Netherlands. They have led the way to presenting the science of why this is an important nutrient for vascular health (especially when using Vitamin D). My bone density scans show that my regimen of the D3 along with the K2 MK7 also keeps me in the range of highly-acceptable-- obviously, good news.

Following are links to several interviews on this topic hosted by Richard Passwater, PhD that are worth noting.

[duckduckgo.com]
[duckduckgo.com]

Jackie

Quote
colindo
The results showed a big difference. I was 50 nmol/L (20 ng/mL) and he was 90 nmol/L (36 ng/mL), which is considered ideal for afibbers.

According to GrassrootsHealth:
"One of the initial goals of GrassrootsHealth was to determine a recommended range for a target vitamin D level that could achieve the best health outcomes for the majority of the population. The consensus reached was 40-60 ng/ml (100-150 nmol/L), and each and every one of our now 48 scientists on that panel agree that this level is not only safe, but also a desirable target for the benefit of multiple health outcomes, including prevention of cancer, heart disease and respiratory infections such as COVID-19."

Many folks are deficient in D. I certainly was. And only recently have I finally been able to get into that recommended range. I test every 6 months. Latest test result: 132 nmol/L (53 ng/mL). I'm currently dosing at 10,000IU/day + 360mcg K2 MK7. I may back off on that a bit over the summer, providing I can get outside enough and get the UVB from the sun.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2021 12:16PM by Lorraine.

I'm still going strong after 16 years of natto food. No afib at all since then and very few PAC'S. Just what the average person experiences.

Colin and I are now convinced we have found out why natto food works for us. It dovetails in with Prof. Svetlana Reilly of Oxford Uni versity who is currently studying the effects of Calcitonin in the atria. Calcitonin is Vit K dependent and six times more deficient in the atria of afibbers than the general population and it is no coincidense that natto food is loaded with Vit. K2.

Colin and myself have both communicated privately with Prof. Reilly and will post all our info shortly.

This is Prof. Reilly's work.

Dean

[www.rdm.ox.ac.uk]

[www.rdm.ox.ac.uk]

Quote
Jackie
I’m not aware of whether Steve Carr recommends also taking the Menaquinone 7 form of Vitamin K2 when higher dosages of Vitamin D are routinely taken, but the literature indicates it’s important to do that to help avoid arterial calcifications.

There’s a wealth of info on that topic offered by Cees Vermeer and Leon Schurgers – PhD researchers, University of Maastricht, Netherlands. They have led the way to presenting the science of why this is an important nutrient for vascular health (especially when using Vitamin D). My bone density scans show that my regimen of the D3 along with the K2 MK7 also keeps me in the range of highly-acceptable-- obviously, good news.

Following are links to several interviews on this topic hosted by Richard Passwater, PhD that are worth noting.

[duckduckgo.com]
[duckduckgo.com]

Jackie

I don't think Steve Carr's protocol included Vit K2, because I was surprised to hear from some correspondence with him that he took it himself.

Your links are particularly interesting 're Richard Passwater. For example [curejoy.com]
An excerpt below.
In fact, eating foods rich in K2 reduces the risk of both arterial calcification and heart disease by as much as 50%, and for every 10 mcg increase in K2 intake, coronary events drop by 9%.2 3

Dean and I are getting about 450 mcg of K2 from a packet of natto which we have every 2nd day. Plus of course all the other goodies natto has to offer.
See Dr Axe review [draxe.com]

Quote
Lorraine
I'm currently dosing at 10,000IU/day + 360mcg K2 MK7. I may back off on that a bit over the summer, providing I can get outside enough and get the UVB from the sun.

I would be interested to know if there has been any resurch done with regard to VitD & VitK2 supplements for afib?
I wonder if Vit K2 supplements plus Vit D could replace natto plus Vit D?
Your dosing seems like it could be a good strating dose.

Any guinea pigs out there.?

Quote
colindo
I'm currently dosing at 10,000IU/day + 360mcg K2 MK7. I may back off on that a bit over the summer, providing I can get outside enough and get the UVB from the sun.

I would be interested to know if there has been any resurch done with regard to VitD & VitK2 supplements for afib?
I wonder if Vit K2 supplements plus Vit D could replace natto plus Vit D?
Your dosing seems like it could be a good strating dose.

Any guinea pigs out there.?

I am basically doing what Lorraine is and getting the same Vit D3 levels on the Lab tests (53ng/ml).
I set out to Try the Natto Protocol 2 years ago, but I have only adhered to it intermittently.

For the past 22 months:

--Average of 1 Natto pack every 2 weeks
--180/mcg Vit K2 mk7/day (I also get Vit K2 via eating grass fed butter)
--10-15K IU /Vit D3 supplement
--Commenced Steve Carr's exogenous calcium reduction regimen, (although I am not nearly as strict as he lays out).
--Re-invigoration of Mg intake efforts, (400-500mg orally, Mg Waller Water and Espom salt foot baths).

I have only had 1 episode in the last 20 months, and my ectopy is very minimal. That is pretty good for me, considering a 12 years history of about 80 episodes, and mostly persistent AFIB. (No Ablation)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2021 10:00AM by The Anti-Fib.

Quote
The Anti-Fib

I'm currently dosing at 10,000IU/day + 360mcg K2 MK7. I may back off on that a bit over the summer, providing I can get outside enough and get the UVB from the sun.

I would be interested to know if there has been any resurch done with regard to VitD & VitK2 supplements for afib?
I wonder if Vit K2 supplements plus Vit D could replace natto plus Vit D?
Your dosing seems like it could be a good strating dose.

Any guinea pigs out there.?

I am basically doing what Lorraine is and getting the same Vit D3 levels on the Lab tests (53ng/ml).
I set out to Try the Natto Protocol 2 years ago, but I have only adhered to it intermittently.

For the past 22 months:

--Average of 1 Natto pack every 2 weeks
--180/mcg Vit K2 mk7/day (I also get Vit K2 via eating grass fed butter)
--10-15K IU /Vit D3 supplement
--Commenced Steve Carr's exogenous calcium reduction regimen, (although I am not nearly as strict as he lays out).
--Re-invigoration of Mg intake efforts, (400-500mg orally, Mg Waller Water and Espom salt foot baths).

I have only had 1 episode in the last 20 months, and my ectopy is very minimal. That is pretty good for me, considering a 12 years history of about 80 episodes, and mostly persistent AFIB. (No Ablation)

It looks like you have achieved very simular results as I have. Congratulations, well done.

It leads me to think I could reduce natto to one packet a week and supplement with 180mcg Vit K2 and 5K IU Vit D3 daily.
I see NOW® Mega D-3 & MK-7 combines vitamins D-3 and K-2, and offer it at this dosing.

I wouldn't want to give up on Natto altogether as has lots of other good stuff in it.

I will give this protocol a try out for 3 months and see if it can maintain NSR and Vit D3 level.

Quote
The Anti-Fib


Any guinea pigs out there.?

I am basically doing what Lorraine is and getting the same Vit D3 levels on the Lab tests (53ng/ml).
I set out to Try the Natto Protocol 2 years ago, but I have only adhered to it intermittently.

For the past 22 months:

--Average of 1 Natto pack every 2 weeks
--180/mcg Vit K2 mk7/day (I also get Vit K2 via eating grass fed butter)
--10-15K IU /Vit D3 supplement
--Commenced Steve Carr's exogenous calcium reduction regimen, (although I am not nearly as strict as he lays out).
--Re-invigoration of Mg intake efforts, (400-500mg orally, Mg Waller Water and Espom salt foot baths).

I'm sort of in this category.

0 natto food as noted above, did not help my digestion 15 years ago when I tried it.
-- K as supplement: 25 mg of MK-4, 0.5 mg of MK-7, 5 mg of K1 and 2 mg of Astaxanthin. [www.k-vitamins.com]
--D3 5-10,000 IU/day (most recent 25 OHD test 94 ng/dL (235 nmol/L) & usually run this >100
--have done < 600 mg/day calcium since 2013, basically no dairy & paying attention to other foods.
--my mag intake is ~ nearly an order of magnitude larger, but think this is related to my individual biochemistry
--{edit}, I think Vitamin A is an important part of the D3/K2 action. I get mine from an unmeasured daily swig of cod liver oil (Carlsen's).

My own afib numbers deteriorated the first part of this year, likely because of dietary changes related to food sensitivity testing and inserting foods that had more calcium. I think I've my afib sensitivity back to normal & will post in a few months when I've confirmed for sure.

Anti-Fib's example is very powerful as he's had what > 45 cardioversions! His afib doesn't convert easily, so this is amazing!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2021 03:40PM by GeorgeN.

Quote
The Anti-Fib

I'm currently dosing at 10,000IU/day + 360mcg K2 MK7. I may back off on that a bit over the summer, providing I can get outside enough and get the UVB from the sun.

I would be interested to know if there has been any resurch done with regard to VitD & VitK2 supplements for afib?
I wonder if Vit K2 supplements plus Vit D could replace natto plus Vit D?
Your dosing seems like it could be a good strating dose.

Any guinea pigs out there.?

I am basically doing what Lorraine is and getting the same Vit D3 levels on the Lab tests (53ng/ml).
I set out to Try the Natto Protocol 2 years ago, but I have only adhered to it intermittently.

For the past 22 months:

--Average of 1 Natto pack every 2 weeks
--180/mcg Vit K2 mk7/day (I also get Vit K2 via eating grass fed butter)
--10-15K IU /Vit D3 supplement
--Commenced Steve Carr's exogenous calcium reduction regimen, (although I am not nearly as strict as he lays out).
--Re-invigoration of Mg intake efforts, (400-500mg orally, Mg Waller Water and Espom salt foot baths).

I have only had 1 episode in the last 20 months, and my ectopy is very minimal. That is pretty good for me, considering a 12 years history of about 80 episodes, and mostly persistent AFIB. (No Ablation)

Would you let us know what brand of Vit K2 you are using please.

"Would you let us know what brand of Vit K2 you are using please. "

Yes, I going to bring this up, as we want to use a reliable brand for these important experiments.
I use "Doctors Best" brand. I also use their Mg as well. For the natural food intake, I use "Kerigold"
real Irish butter. They have good grass there in Ireland.

George, did you do research to determine what dosage of Vit K (complex) was right for you? That is way more than I am taking. " K as supplement: 25 mg of MK-4, 0.5 mg of MK-7, 5 mg of K1 and 2 mg of Astaxanthin. [www.k-vitamins.com] "

Also Jackie, or anyone else, how do we determine dosage for Vit K2? what would be good dose for the average Afibber? Lorraine is taking 360mcg. I may double my dose from 180 to 360mcg.

Quote
The Anti-Fib
George, did you do research to determine what dosage of Vit K (complex) was right for you? That is way more than I am taking. " K as supplement: 25 mg of MK-4, 0.5 mg of MK-7, 5 mg of K1 and 2 mg of Astaxanthin. "

Also Jackie, or anyone else, how do we determine dosage for Vit K2? what would be good dose for the average Afibber? Lorraine is taking 360mcg. I may double my dose from 180 to 360mcg.

This may answer your question.

From. [www.jafra.gr.jp]

It is possible to obtain enough vitamin K2 from one packet (100 g) of natto.

One hundred grams of natto contains approximately 1,000μg of menaquinone 7. A normal person is supposed to consume 1μg per 1 kg of body weight each day, which means that a person of 60 kg should consume 60μg of menaquinone 7. Therefore, 10 g of natto supplies enough menaquinone for one day. If the colon bacillus is weakened, a packet of natto supplies a sufficient amount of menaquinone 7.


One packet of frozen natto is about 45gms therefore that equals 450mcg of Vit K2., so I think your 180mcg of K2 a day is twice what you need if you are 90kg. although if the colon bacillus is weakened then you would need more.

Quote
The Anti-Fib
George, did you do research to determine what dosage of Vit K (complex) was right for you? That is way more than I am taking. " K as supplement: 25 mg of MK-4, 0.5 mg of MK-7, 5 mg of K1 and 2 mg of Astaxanthin. "

Also Jackie, or anyone else, how do we determine dosage for Vit K2? what would be good dose for the average Afibber? .

I don't know what is the best dose for the average afibber. In my case afib propensity is insensitive to K2 dose.

I had a very small amount of calcium on a CAC scan 6 years ago, so the K2 is part of a plan to keep increases in CAC volume < 15%/year (per Raggi 2004 data).

I optimize many things for health span. I have a genetic risk for Alzheimer's, a small amount of calcium in my heart and lifelong autoimmunity. Afib is a part of this optimization and as a part of afib optimization, I also optimize all the pieces of CHA2DS2–VASc that I have any control over (like hypertension, T2 diabetes or its precursors and arguably some causes of heart failure). If you look at the data, anticoagulation reduces your risk of stroke by about 50%. This is from your baseline stroke risk, which is a function of where you are with CHA2DS2–VASc. Hence it makes sense to me to reduce your starting stroke risk whether on not you consume anticoagulation meds. I look at T2 as the end result of years of hyperinsulinemia leading to insulin resistance and then T2. Risk factors for insulin resistance include (source):

- large waist size, > 40" men, 35 women (31.5" women, 35.5" men if of Southeast Asian, Chinese or Japanese descent), (I optimize at <33")
- High triglycerides, >150 mg/dL or on meds (I optimize at 60 or less)
- HDL's <50 mg/dL for women and 40 for men or on meds ( I optimize at >60 with TG/HDL <=1)
- High blood pressure > 130/85 mmHg or on BP meds (I optimize at <=110/70)
- High fasting blood sugar, >100-125 mg/dl (prediabetes} > 125(diabetes) or on blood sugar meds, (I optimize at <=85 mg/dl).

Not on the list from the source, but I optimize fasting insulin at <=4 mIU/L
I also keep postprandial blood sugar excursions to a small number (target <110 mg/dL absolute, not increase)

I optimize at more stringent levels than what standard of care looks at, and without meds,. Some of what I do may pose risks for others. I carefully analyze my risk/reward before I do interventions.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2021 06:30PM by GeorgeN.

George:

Thanks for the informative reply. There is alot there that I had not delved into.

"I had a very small amount of calcium on a CAC scan 6 years ago" Why did you do a CAC in the 1st place? Was this your idea, or did your Dr. initiate this? My Dr's never mentioned this, and I have been to the Cardio Dr's way more than you. I did have an Angiogram done 12 years ago.

Quote
The Anti-Fib
Was this your idea, or did your Dr. initiate this?

My idea. Paid out of pocket. Interestingly, about the only doc I consult is Steven Gundry and that is telemedicine. He's a cardiothoracic surgeon and not a fan of CAC, because it is looking at hard not soft plaque. Soft plaque is what causes heart attacks. Hence he uses tests like the PULS test for inflammation. My contention, is looking at Raggi (linked above) data, there is an association between large CAC volume (not Agatston) increases (>15%/yr) and sort plaque, hence the much greater CAD risk for those with the high increases. Gundry's time is expensive, so I've never debated him on this topic. I don't doubt Gundry's methods as he has a great track record of keeping folks healthy. NLAMA, who post's here, has looked at CAC hard as he's got a high score. Gundry & I have chatted about my afib plan and he tells me to (obviously) keep on doing what I'm doing and is fine with the buckets of electrolytes I consume.

I posted this in response to a post in a new thread that Lorraine just made. Thought it should go here, too.

From NLAMA's post,

"(btw) EVOO significantly increases absorption of MK7

Study - www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Which always leads one to ask - what about other fats and oils - in short - not so much.

I take all K2 MK7 and natto with about 15 grams of EVOO."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2021 03:04PM by GeorgeN.

Is it problematic to be on Eliquis and Nattokinase simultaneously?

q