Natto and other supplements instead of Eliquis

Hello All,
I have been lurking on this site for a long time now. I was very active many years ago.
I'm a 74 year old male who has had afib/flutter issues on and off for over 40 years. I was a paroxismal affiber
for years but I guess I'm a CHADS 1 because of my age. Last March I had a pacemaker implanted because of a very low pulse. Last July I had an ablation at Albany Med in Albany NY due to afib/flutter issues ongoing. I was still in aflutter for a month or so but after the blanking period I seem to be doing very well except for ocassional ectopics.
I would love to get off the Eliqus but all my doctors tell me I have to be on it for life. I'm into alternative medicine and keen on stopping Eliqus and replacing it with things like Nattokinase, Linden, Hawthorne berry, mushrooms, garlic, green tea, fish oil, sage and yarrow. All blood thining. Unfortunately I have low platelet count. Normal is like 140,000 to 250,000. My levels are around 115,000 for the past ten years.
Your comments would indeed be appreciated.
Thank you.

Robin

There are certain posters on here that will go ape shit on you to even to suggest natto to replace reg. drug blood thinners.....watch out to take incoming....i agree with you btw.
It happened to me a few years ago and i took natural blood thinners before and after a few weeks on ELQ. after my ablation.
I left the site for 2 years after the know it all's attacked me all day to even suggest the same thing you are thinking. Did not want to deal with them.
I drop in a couple times a month now to see new updates, news and op.
I obviously did not listen to them and still take many of the supl. you talk about even though it has nothing to do with my former cond. its just good well being advice.....so you make up your own mind but the close minded attacks are coming believe me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2021 07:20PM by vanlith.

Do some research and decide for your self.


[articles.mercola.com]

[articles.mercola.com]

[undergroundhealthreporter.com]

Your life; Your Decision. I am 63 and I am on a blood thinner Eliquis for life. LAA was isolated and I failed the 6 month TEE. I decided with the guidance of many well educated men and women on this forum to do what one ofThe leading EP in the world said to do. Dr. Natale
It is your life but I can promise you no one will pressure you. I owe these men and women my life. Shannon was a Godsend to me and my wife and my girls. I am currently in NSR and have been since July 2016. Carey has took the torch and does a great job!

I feel the comment that this person who claims to have been basically terrorized by this Forum to be a little of a stretch. Personally, I love this Forum and I love the knowledge this forum gives freely to the public.

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vanlith
so you make up your own mind but the close minded attacks are coming believe me.

No, they're not. Personal attacks, whether close minded or not, aren't tolerated here. Such posts will be removed and the author warned not to repeat them. If anyone sees such a post, click the "Report" button at the lower right of the message and let us know. It will be dealt with as soon as Shannon or I see it, almost always within 24 hours.

If, however, someone makes a reasoned argument why they think you're making a mistake, those are definitely allowed, and encouraged even. The same is true for those who think you're doing the right thing. The free exchange of ideas and information for all things afib is what this place is all about. The only requirement is that all posts are polite and respectful, and unusual scientific claims are backed up with reputable sources.

Please don't misinterpret people caring enough to respond to your posts with a different opinion as some sort of attack. They're just trying to help.

The "know it alls" on this site are people who suffer(ered) with AF and who take time out to offer good common sense ideas about what worked for them and what didn't. If you don't want people to respond to a question don't ask. This forum has killed my anxiety time and time again when I'm alone and in the middle of a nasty episode. If people respond a little sternly to a question, particularly if it's about keeping one safe, it's because they care.

Robin,

I suggest you have read of this post, it's long but very informative. The last post by Jackie in particular.

[www.afibbers.org]

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colindo
I suggest you have read of this post, it's long but very informative. The last post by Jackie in particular.

[www.afibbers.org]

Wow that is very interesting and helpful post and comment thread, colindo. thanks for sharing. It's from 3 years ago and I was not member here then. so i definitely missed that one.

Hello All,
Thank you all for your insight and comments. I was very active on this site about 10 years ago when Hans Larson was the manager of the site. I never felt that folks where "ragging" on one another. We might be sensitive sometimes, but that is understandable considering afib can make one kinda nuts.
I'm seriously studying the possibility of stopping Eliqus and replacing it with Natto and some other supplements. I want to thank you for showing me sites that may help me with my decision.
I am confused with the CHADS scoring. I guess my current score is 1. However I'm turning 75 in June and I guess my score will then be a 2. How do I figure out the risk of a stroke in layman's terms without the Eliqus.

Robin:

I too was reading this board when Hans Larsen was the developer of this site, but i have to say that if Hans thought some comments were not to his liking he would stop it and in fact would kick the poster off this site. In fact, Erling could be a little argument and Hans did stop him from posting , i don't know if he couldn't post anymore or he just stopped on his own but i never saw him posting anymore. I don't think Carey or Shannon have stopped anyone from posting, the post could be deleted but the poster wasn't kicked off the board.

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Robin
I am confused with the CHADS scoring. I guess my current score is 1. However I'm turning 75 in June and I guess my score will then be a 2. How do I figure out the risk of a stroke in layman's terms without the Eliqus.

You can figure out your CHADS score by clicking here. The good news is you can subtract 1 from your score for being female. That point is no longer counted for almost all cases of afib. So if you have none of the other conditions listed, you would have a score of 2 for being 75. To get the correct explanation of your score, just tell the test you're male and that will subtract the point.

Once you enter all the answers, a green box will show up below the questions that explains the risks. For a CHADS score of 2, it says:

Quote

Stroke risk was 2.2% per year in >90,000 patients (the Swedish Atrial Fibrillation Cohort Study) and 2.9% risk of stroke/TIA/systemic embolism.

One recommendation suggests a 0 score is “low” risk and may not require anticoagulation; a 1 score is “low-moderate” risk and should consider antiplatelet or anticoagulation, and score 2 or greater is “moderate-high” risk and should otherwise be an anticoagulation candidate.

So what does a 2.2% risk of stroke mean in real life terms? For the average person your odds of dying in a car crash are about 1% per year, so it means you're twice as likely to suffer a stroke without the Eliquis (or something) as you are to die in a car crash. And if we expand it to not just strokes but also blood clots elsewhere, which can cause things like heart attacks, it's triple the risk of dying in a car crash.

Oh, heck, that doesn't sound so bad, does it?

But remember, that's just the odds of it happening in a single year, and you face those same odds every year. So what are the odds of you suffering at least one stroke over the next 10 years if you take nothing to prevent it?

About 20%. Yes, if you do nothing, you'll face a 1-in-5 chance of suffering a stroke in the next 10 years.

My advice would be to do something to substantially reduce that risk.

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Elizabeth
I don't think Carey or Shannon have stopped anyone from posting, the post could be deleted but the poster wasn't kicked off the board.

We've never stopped anyone from posting. Other than the occasional spammer who manages to slip in, I can only remember one individual we removed from the board in the last few years. That person was combative and disruptive and came here looking for a fight, so I'm pretty sure nobody missed them.

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Carey

I am confused with the CHADS scoring. I guess my current score is 1. However I'm turning 75 in June and I guess my score will then be a 2. How do I figure out the risk of a stroke in layman's terms without the Eliqus.

You can figure out your CHADS score by clicking here. The good news is you can subtract 1 from your score for being female. That point is no longer counted for almost all cases of afib. So if you have none of the other conditions listed, you would have a score of 2 for being 75. To get the correct explanation of your score, just tell the test you're male and that will subtract the point.

Once you enter all the answers, a green box will show up below the questions that explains the risks. For a CHADS score of 2, it says:

Stroke risk was 2.2% per year in >90,000 patients (the Swedish Atrial Fibrillation Cohort Study) and 2.9% risk of stroke/TIA/systemic embolism.

One recommendation suggests a 0 score is “low” risk and may not require anticoagulation; a 1 score is “low-moderate” risk and should consider antiplatelet or anticoagulation, and score 2 or greater is “moderate-high” risk and should otherwise be an anticoagulation candidate.

So what does a 2.2% risk of stroke mean in real life terms? For the average person your odds of dying in a car crash are about 1% per year, so it means you're twice as likely to suffer a stroke without the Eliquis (or something) as you are to die in a car crash. And if we expand it to not just strokes but also blood clots elsewhere, which can cause things like heart attacks, it's triple the risk of dying in a car crash.

Oh, heck, that doesn't sound so bad, does it?

But remember, that's just the odds of it happening in a single year, and you face those same odds every year. So what are the odds of you suffering at least one stroke over the next 10 years if you take nothing to prevent it?

About 20%. Yes, if you do nothing, you'll face a 1-in-5 chance of suffering a stroke in the next 10 years.

My advice would be to do something to substantially reduce that risk.

Please tell us why the risks go up by 2.2% each year, what causes this?

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colindo
Please tell us why the risks go up by 2.2% each year, what causes this?

It doesn't go up every year. It remains at about a 2.2% chance of suffering a stroke per year. It's the same as rolling dice. If you have a 2.2% chance of a certain number coming up and you roll the dice once, you have 2.2% chance of rolling that number. But if you roll the dice 10 times, you'll have a 20% chance of rolling that number at least once. The same thing happens when you live for 10 years with a 2.2% annual chance of a stroke.

To arrive at the 20% figure, you don't just multiple the risk times the number of years. That would give you a 22% chance of a stroke in 10 years, which is an overestimation. Here is how you calculate the odds of a question like this.

When your odds actually go up is when new things happen. You get diabetes, you suffer a TIA, you reach the age of 75, etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2021 11:02AM by Carey.

So if we round down to 2% that's like 98% chance of not getting a stroke?

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colindo
So if we round down to 2% that's like 98% chance of not getting a stroke?

Yep.

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Carey

So if we round down to 2% that's like 98% chance of not getting a stroke?

Yep.

And if we take eliquis, what are the chances of not getting a stroke? 99%?

If you want to get into the details of what they look at, go to p 29 of the PDF (printed page # 401) of this document.. This is the European Society of Cardiology 2020 Guidelines for Management of Atrial Fibrillation. There are references to the studies they looked at.

I've always worked very hard at controlling all the controllable factors, like hypertension and blood sugar without meds and to keep them in the extreme optimal range.

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GeorgeN

I've always worked very hard at controlling all the controllable factors, like hypertension and blood sugar without meds and to keep them in the extreme optimal range.

This is where natto and nattokinase can help.
Natto among other benifets can reduce blood pressure.
If you are a lone afibber you may not need any blood thinners but nattokinase is some insurance in that case.
If only Doctors realised the benifets of Natto.
[drjockers.com]

I have been looking into whether the frozen natto from Japan,which is all that is available to us in supermarkets actually has any live bacterial culture. And all I am finding is that it does not. So I am,at this point, not sure whether frozen natto will deliver what we are looking for and expecting in terms of both the nattokinase and the K2.

The solution seems to be to either find a person or company that makes it fresh and never freezes it before sale, or start making your own. If you live in a large city you can find fresh natto for sale. But many towns this is not possible.

This facebook post from a NY company that makes fresh natto says they put the fresh natto and frozen natto under microscope, and nothing living in frozen natto:

[www.facebook.com]

This FB post by NYrture New York Natto says:

" Don’t freeze your natto! Freezing ruptures and kills the probiotic cells inside; see for yourself.
🔬At the University of Amsterdam I visited Dr. Leendert Hamoen who studies adaptive growth behavior of Bacillus subtilis, our favorite probiotic microbe. How alive are the probiotic bacteria inside our natto? And how does our natto compare to frozen imported natto? Check out our experiment 👉👉👉
🌝 Under the microscope, we see our natto teeming with LIVE, dividing, growing microbial cells.
🌚 In contrast, frozen Japanese natto was completely DEAD, containing only spores and ruptured cellular debris.
👁👁Seeing is believing; the difference between fresh & frozen natto was as clear as day & night. Only the living food is truly probiotic and actively produce VitaminK2 & nattokinase. All studies showing natto’s health benefits examined consumption of fresh, unfrozen natto.
👉This is important because all natto exported from Asia is frozen in transit. For maximum health benefit, choose fresh natto & do not freeze, please 🙏 "

Quote
colindo
And if we take eliquis, what are the chances of not getting a stroke? 99%?

Tempting to think of it that way, isn't it? It sounds trivial to compare 99% to 98%, but keep in mind that if you run a trial with a thousand participants, you're going to get 10 more strokes per 1000 people with the higher risk.

Taking an anticoagulant reduces your risk of stroke/TIA/systemic embolism by about 50-60%. So let's do the math without rounding and using the risks we actually care about, not just strokes. With a CHADS-Vasc score of 2, you have a 2.9% risk of stroke/TIA/systemic embolism per year.

If you do nothing:

• Your risk of NOT suffering a potentially devastating cardiovascular event in the first year is 1 - .029 = 97.1%.
• Over the course of the next 10 years, your risk of NOT suffering an event will be .971 ^ 10 = 74.5%.
• Therefore, the risk that you WILL suffer such an event is 1 - .754 = 25.4%.

If you take warfarin or any of the NOACs:

Your risk of stroke/TIA/systemic embolism is now reduced by ~55%.

• Your risk of NOT suffering a potentially devastating cardiovascular event in the first year is 1 - .0131 = 98.7%
• Over the course of the next 10 years, your risk of NOT suffering an event will be .987 ^ 10 = 87.7%
• Therefore, the risk that you WILL suffer such an event is 1 - .877 = 12.3%.

So the NOAC decreased your risk of serious events over a 10-year span from 1-in-5 to 1-in-10. Doing the numbers for a 20-year period we get a 44% chance of a serious event with no anticoagulants and 23% with anticoagulants. In other words, it's almost a 50/50 chance without some type of anticoagulant.

I don't know about you, but I don't find these risks or the differences between them in the least bit trivial.

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PoetKim
I have been looking into whether the frozen natto from Japan,which is all that is available to us in supermarkets actually has any live bacterial culture. And all I am finding is that it does not. So I am,at this point, not sure whether frozen natto will deliver what we are looking for and expecting in terms of both the nattokinase and the K2.

The solution seems to be to either find a person or company that makes it fresh and never freezes it before sale, or start making your own. If you live in a large city you can find fresh natto for sale. But many towns this is not possible.

This facebook post from a NY company that makes fresh natto says they put the fresh natto and frozen natto under microscope, and nothing living in frozen natto:

[www.facebook.com]

This FB post by NYrture New York Natto says:

" Don’t freeze your natto! Freezing ruptures and kills the probiotic cells inside; see for yourself.
🔬At the University of Amsterdam I visited Dr. Leendert Hamoen who studies adaptive growth behavior of Bacillus subtilis, our favorite probiotic microbe. How alive are the probiotic bacteria inside our natto? And how does our natto compare to frozen imported natto? Check out our experiment 👉👉👉
🌝 Under the microscope, we see our natto teeming with LIVE, dividing, growing microbial cells.
🌚 In contrast, frozen Japanese natto was completely DEAD, containing only spores and ruptured cellular debris.
👁👁Seeing is believing; the difference between fresh & frozen natto was as clear as day & night. Only the living food is truly probiotic and actively produce VitaminK2 & nattokinase. All studies showing natto’s health benefits examined consumption of fresh, unfrozen natto.
👉This is important because all natto exported from Asia is frozen in transit. For maximum health benefit, choose fresh natto & do not freeze, please 🙏 "

I have used both and didn't find any difference.
I used local unfrozen natto for the first 6 months then changed to frozen because it was more convenient to get and have used it for the last 2 years.
Dean has used frozen natto for 14 years and has been free of Afib for that long.

i have had AF for about 21 years, the first 20 years I would get AF and always go back into NSR until about a year ago and i am now in permanent AF. The First 20 years i never took an anticoagulant,. since i am in permanent AF I am on Xeralto but in those first 20 years i didnt take any of those supplements spoken about on here or natto. Maybe it was because I always went back into NSR within 12 to 22 hours. I have always taken a Complex B vit, Vit D and vit. C, But, we are all different so I am not recommending my protocol.

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colindo
I have used both and didn't find any difference.
I used local unfrozen natto for the first 6 months then changed to frozen because it was more convenient to get and have used it for the last 2 years.
Dean has used frozen natto for 14 years and has been free of Afib for that long.

I'm glad to hear that!

Wow............. Thank you all for this wonderful information. It does make one wonder what the right decision for me is.
Stay tuned I guess. I'll keep you posted.
FYI...on Nattokinase. Allergy Research Group advertises "Nattokinase NSK-SD 2000 FU" for about $42 for a bottle of 60 gel caps. Life Extension prices were better than Amazon. I took this product for quite a long time with no problems. When my Aflutter returned a year ago my EP told me to stop the Natto and put me back on Eliqus.

Quote
Robin
Wow............. Thank you all for this wonderful information. It does make one wonder what the right decision for me is.
Stay tuned I guess. I'll keep you posted.
FYI...on Nattokinase. Allergy Research Group advertises "Nattokinase NSK-SD 2000 FU" for about $42 for a bottle of 60 gel caps. Life Extension prices were better than Amazon. I took this product for quite a long time with no problems. When my Aflutter returned a year ago my EP told me to stop the Natto and put me back on Eliqus.

This is the best deal I have found, Jarrow Formulas, NattoMax 2000 FU, 100 mg, 90 Veggie Caps from iherb.
And it does have the JNKA logo, meaning it's genuine .

Hi All, Again thank you all for your invaluable information. I really appreciate it!
I'm planning on stopping Eliqus over the weekend and starting Nattokinase, pill form Allergy Research Group. Jackie recommended this brand to me and she researched it heavily. Other items I would like to take as well are reishi and chaga mushroom, Hawthorne, Linden, and various herbs (sage, yarrow and oatstraw) - all having blood thinning properties. At Jackie's advice I also take many supplements as well : d-ribose, CoQ10, fish oil, carnitine, and taurine. And, of course, Vitamin D3.
I am also a student of nutrition. The Standard American Diet (SAD) may be contributing to the general downward spiral of health on a global basis. I try to eat right and avoid too many Carbs. If one is malnourished it certainly does not help heart health. A word of caution if I may. Vegetable seed oils, Soy, Peanut, Cotton, Sunflower, Grapeseed, Canola are poisons. These oils are in all processed food and way to high in omega 6. Use a good olive oil, lard, grassfed butter or coconut oil instead. OK, end of sermon.
Again thank you all for your comments.
Cheers,
Robin

[event.webinarjam.com]
Wolfson Webinar.
Not much earth shattering or new here, but some good common sense dietary and lifestyle suggestions.

Yes. I watched the webinar at Jackie’s recommendation. He seemed to downplay the risk of stroke if one stayed healthy. Cleared up many of my questions.

Does the Chads-Vasc score matter if you are free of afib/flutter problems?

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Madeline
Does the Chads-Vasc score matter if you are free of afib/flutter problems?

Yes.

Hi Colin. I'm curious how you know that Natto is thinning your blood? Are you doing prothrombin testing, and if so what kind of results are you basing your conclusion on. Thanks, Ralph

I do wonder about all those who have not experienced afib but do have high blood pressure or other comorbidities. I do not think they are advised about the ChadsVasc scoring or the need to get on blood thinners. I have a sister with high BP problems, which I do not have, but she has not been advised to get on a blood thinner & I don't think she knows about the CV scoring system.

Do you think it is mostly people who have had afib or big heart issues whose drs are looking at ChadsVasc & are told to get on blood thinners?

I may be experiencing a false sense of relief about not having afib anymore & not getting it again. I have been free of flutter since last April which makes 10 months now, & longer for the afib And I really got better when I stopped the antiarrhythmic - flecainide which I was put on after April flutter (I read it could cause flutter.....)

So my Natale index ablation was 8/2/19 & in looking over my notes, I really only got afib in the blanking period after wanting to come off my meds too soon & my subsequent episodes were flutter in November & April. The cardiologist wanted me to stay on flecainide, but I have done much better since getting off - no more problems.

I am pretty sensitive to med changes & once all that settled down, it seems my ablation was a success. I have changed my thyroid meds which may have caused my problem in the first place as I never had BP problems or any heart problems before.

I have chosen to stay on low dose carvedilol for a benign essential tremor of hands (which it helped) & also for rate control since my pulse easily will run into the 80s without it & my diastolics may stay pretty much in the 80s too, but my systolics are mostly good. I declined continuing blood thinner as of last September.

Well, I digressed by talking about my past afib & my being free of it now. But, why aren't those who have high BP worrying about a blood thinner too? That is the only experience I have, i.e., knowing others with high BP but them not being told of any need for a blood thinner. Am I mainly supposed to worry about the need for a blood thinner bec of a past hx of afib?

Quote
Madeline
Am I mainly supposed to worry about the need for a blood thinner bec of a past hx of afib?

Yes. The CHADS scoring system was designed specifically for people with a history of some type of atrial arrhythmia. It gets applied in other areas of cardiology, but it really just doesn't apply to people who have no history of heart problems.

Does your CHADS score still apply to you if you're 10 months afib free? I think almost all EPs would say yes, but I think a lot of that is simply medical conservatism. Doctors tend to get that way when the consequences of being wrong include death and devastating disabilities.

Would I personally stop an anticoagulant if I were in your shoes? No, probably not, and if I were going to I would wait at least a full year.

Thank you, Carey & I will PM a bit more of a note to you.

Quote
PoetKim
I have been looking into whether the frozen natto from Japan,which is all that is available to us in supermarkets actually has any live bacterial culture. And all I am finding is that it does not. So I am,at this point, not sure whether frozen natto will deliver what we are looking for and expecting in terms of both the nattokinase and the K2.

The solution seems to be to either find a person or company that makes it fresh and never freezes it before sale, or start making your own. If you live in a large city you can find fresh natto for sale. But many towns this is not possible.

This facebook post from a NY company that makes fresh natto says they put the fresh natto and frozen natto under microscope, and nothing living in frozen natto:

[www.facebook.com]

There are also:

https://www.meguminatto.com/

https://rhapsodynaturalfoods.com/

The Megumi Natto is available at my local Japanese grocery store. It is of course about twice as expensive as the frozen stuff shipped from Japan.

All best!

--Lance

Quote
ln108


The Megumi Natto is available at my local Japanese grocery store. It is of course about twice as expensive as the frozen stuff shipped from Japan.

All best!

Rhapsody. Certified Organic Small Bean Natto. Case of twelve 3.5 oz containers. $36.00 per case

That's not a bad price, it works out at $3.00 per 100gm container. Half of which is all you need every 2nd day.

I am taking all of those supps you mentioned and more but did not think about the natto. So thank you for the heads up! BTW, ribose makes me pleasantly sleepy, so I only take it at night.

Robin,
I got off my Xarelto last June and have felt better having done so. There's more to the story of why I felt I could do this within a safety margin, but won't go into this here. I will likely start on nattokinase soon so am glad to hear of Allergy Research Group's product.
I take many of the supplements you do and also watch my carbs. (I've been 95% gluten free for many years but have recently been reading a book called Wheat Belly, by William Davis, MD, (cardiologist) which is fascinating).
Back to your supplements, do you also take vitamin K2?