Alcohol vs magnesium

This post is more from curiosity. We all struggle trying to find some answer, some strategy, some relief. Most of us are affected by alcohol whether it's the few beers just socializing, or the glass of wine or bourbon to relax. Sometimes just a beer or two can start the ectopics or nasty little runs. It seems the heart is so attuned to the mere presence of booze. On the other hand I can intake magnesium day aft day, supplement some potassium, take my vitamins and warrior on with the constant barrage of supplements and it may take days or months to get to a state of "relief". What's the difference?? I have a hard time thinking the heart is so much more sensitive to the alcohol?? Seriously can we not come up with magnesium and supplements that are as effective?? I don't understand.

tsco - From my own experience, I understand that it is tempting to resume old habits, but one of the foundational aspects of regaining healthy, normal heart function after ablation is to avoid that which was detrimental in the first place and this would include alcohol consumption.

While magnesium is certainly a critically important electrolyte for many reasons, it's not the only electrolyte involved and it isn't a magic bullet that allows one to resume habits that likely contributed to the onset of arrhythmia. This could be other factors in addition to alcohol. Or it could be that you have a genetic predisposition that influences or prevents continual optimization of your magnesium stores. It could also be that while you have enough magnesium, you are too high in sodium and very low in potassium and that also promotes arrhythmia. Or have a high calcium intake that blocks magnesium.

In the case of alcohol consumption, there have been numerous previous posts on this topic with the main take-home message: alcoholic drinks poison or kill heart cells. These are cardiac myocytes or muscle cells.

Magnesium is certainly an essential mineral and electrolyte for many functions, but won't replace dead heart cells.

Undoubtedly, there are ablatees who do consume some alcohol without problems and others, who have managed to reverse the AF trend without ablation may find they can consume alcohol without consequences, but the 'physiology' indicates, it's probably not something one should do with total disregard. I recall that Shannon said an occasional wine spritzer might be a safe choice.

But, the bottom line is that lifestyle choices and permanent changes are most likely the key to a peaceful heart.

Why not abstain for several months with a healthy, clean diet and see if that helps? If not, then a lab assessment of your functional electrolytes would be a good start.... and also assessment of food allergies that might serve as triggers.


Be sure to read this report… Alcohol’s Effects on the Cardiovascular System.
[pubs.niaaa.nih.gov]

Best to you,
Jackie

It is very individual. Alcohol is not a trigger for me, even though I'm very sensitive to lack of magnesium. I have a glass of red wine with no negative effect.

That being said, my doc friend told me almost all the afib he saw was from "Holiday Heart Syndrome (excess alcohol consumption).

10 or so years ago here a man from Wales posted here that the only time he got afib was after a night at the pub. I suggested he change his habits. He responded that this was socially impossible...

George

Thanks folks. Part of my point or question is why is the heart "instantly" affected by alcohol consumption but not by consumption of all the minerals I think Jackie hit on it that it is a complex combo of all the diff minerals.

Hello tsco, look up alcohol in whatever reference you prefer, You will find alcohol described as "cardiotoxic". That is a medical term for "heart" [cardio] ."toxic"[poison]. Alcohol has a specific attraction to heart tissue and it poisons this tissue in particular. Best to lay off it.

PeggyM

tsco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks folks. Part of my point or question is why is the heart "instantly" affected by alcohol
> consumption but not by consumption of all the minerals I think Jackie hit on it that it is a
> complex combo of all the diff minerals.

For me, mag has an immediate effect on my heart. When I started supplementing with mag 12 years ago, my afib frequency immediately responded. Another example. In April, I had an episode (one of two in the last 3 1/2 years). I did my usual of chewing 300 mg of flecainide. This time, I added 300-400 mg of mag as citrate powder (Natural Calm). The result, the shortest episode I've ever had - converted in 8 or 9 minutes documented by before and after ECG's from my AliveCor device.

Also had an episode 7 years ago brought on by electrolyte shifts when I was converting to a ketogenic diet (high insulin signals kidneys to conserve sodium, low insulin signals them to excrete sodium which can also cause potassium excretion to keep the sodium/potassium ratio in balance). When I converted this episode with flecainide, it converted to NSR at around 130 BPM. Normal for my HR after a flec conversion is in the 80's. I took 400 mg of mag (again mag citrate powder if my memory serves). I watched my HR drop to the 80's over about 10 minutes.

That being said, 12 years of large quantities of mag have not resulted my system "filling up" and being able to discontinue supplementation.

During my 2 1/2 month episode 12 years ago, I started having eye lid fasciculations (twitches). It took 3 months of supplementation for these to go away. Recently, I had them again. This time it took a day or so of a modest increase in my mag to have them go away.

All of this is certainly very individual. Magnesium is obviously my issue for afib. Others may have different issues.

George



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2016 09:46AM by GeorgeN.

Hi all,

I had my ablation 6 weeks ago with Dr. Natale and although he said that one beer or one glass of wine occassionally should not be a problem, I am quite scared of having one and inmediately go back into flutters or loops.....I really don't know when I will try my next beer but I hope nothing will happen.

Cheers...

George's experiences are unique to him. Most people don't tolerate as much supplemental Mg as he can. That's very good for him as it has obviously helped reverse his AF trend as his demands for it are very high. Others might find that the only way to reach 'saturation' or optimization is IV therapy which is not always easily available. Still others don't push the dosages up enough and for a long enough time... often more than three months and longer... to reach optimization along with stabilization. We are all experiments of one.

But again, as George mentions... it's not a one-time goal. This is a lifetime/lifestyle commitment... the continual replenishment of critical nutrients.

As stated earlier, it's not just magnesium but the combination of other minerals working in synergy. We can give suggested ranges of requirements, but the individuality is the determining point. We used to talk about the importance of using the Essential Trio.. consisting of magnesium, potassium and taurine. That still holds true today along with dietary modifications that protect the essentials from depletion or competition and we don't tempt fate with trigger foods which again are individually unique but often many common are shared....such as the alcohol, sugar, high-salt foods, gluten, MSG, dehydration, diet anything... with the artificial sweeteners such as aspartame, and also a variety of triggers that are just unique to that individual

As George mentions, his symptom of eye lid fasciculations or twitches is a classic sign of magnesium deficiency. Often, it's leg and foot cramps or restless leg syndrome... also magnesium deficiency but there again, often doctors don't make the connection. And the 'twitches' of the heart can also be related to magnesium deficiency combined with the other electrolytes needed for proper electrical conduction.

One drink of wine occasionally may be fine, but then again, if your stores are marginal to begin with, the alcohol can wipe out quickly what you do have and the the fun begins.

The focus needs to be on awareness as to what food, drink, activity or other influence becomes a trigger for your unique individuality. Then make smart choices... like a focus on healthy lifestyle choices.

Jackie

No evidence that an isolated drink of ethanol leads to Mg depletion and afib within your specified time frame. More likely is that ethanol is acting as a stimulant, and hence initiates afib for those who are adrenergic dominant. In this case, you might try a small dose of nonselective beta blocker like Propranolol to achieve a more immediate impact.

It's most likely that the ingestion of alcohol... and it would depend on the total alcohol content... by a person who is already deficient in intracellular magnesium would serve as a trigger for PACs or outright Afib. Many afibbers have proven that to themselves many times.

That connection is documented in the literature discussing the intracellular function of magnesium. It certainly can also be the adrenergic stimulant effect as well. It is stated that magnesium's half-life or bioavailability is reduced by alcohol. Additionally, alcohol can help contribute to low blood glucose levels which can be an initiator of AF as well.

The literature also states that drinking alcohol increases urine production which leads to excessive excretion of magnesium which can contribute to heart rhythm abnormalities.

Jackie

My personal 2 cents' worth is that it may depend on your AF mediation. If you're adrenergic, than alcohol is going to be a no-no. It irritates the heart and speeds it up. If you're vagal, then you may be able to ingest ethanol with little ill-effect (so far as rhythm is concerned. There are plenty of other bad effects).

Speaking as a vagal AFer, I am in the odd and possibly inexplicable position of having to report that moderate alcohol consumption would, in fact, cardiovert me into NSR. I would not, under any circumstance, recommend that course of action to anyone regardless of AF mediation. It only stands to underscore the fact that AF is such a variable and hard to quantify beast.

Wolfpack... that's interesting. I was vagal and alcohol definitely would give me palps or AF.

I also tested low in intracellular magnesium and potassium via ExaTest so that was a huge clue as to why.

Post ablation, I tolerate a small glass (3 oz measured) of wine occasionally. No longer drink hard liquor. No desire to rock the boat ever again.

Jackie

Jackie,

I have no clue as to why, but I would break through almost nightly on Propafenone XR 325mg. Add two beers and I'd stay in NSR all night long. I told my cardiologist, and he said he could think of no reason why this would work, but if it did just keep doing it (with the caveat that it didn't become 4, 5, or 6!).

I mostly followed that advice.

Second the thought on the hard liquors - that is WAY too much ethanol in one dose. At best you're looking at a headache the next day. At worst - we don't even want to go there.

Wolfpack.... 2 beers and NSR all night sounds a whole lot better than Propafenone!!! I'll drink to that!

As we continually emphasize, we are all individually unique. There can be common pitfalls and triggers but there will always also be those who have different responses. That's what makes this forum so great - the opportunity to share experiences so that others can evaluate their own situations by comparison.

Thanks for elaborating on your experience.

Be well,
Jackie

For me alcohol is a definite no no. There are times when I've become a bit complacent and convinced myself just one drink will be okay. Particularly if I've had a couple of long nasty runs of AF in one week. Last night was one of those times, having had a prolonged episode on Monday and another one on Wednesday I figured I deserved a bit of a break and poured myself a nice big glass of Tia Maria on ice. Heck...it's got milk in it hasn't it,it must do some good?
WRONG...almost instantaneous AF. Very fast and chaotic, the whole gamut of severe chest pain, dizziness, nausea and constant running to the loo. Its morning and I've just converted to sinus rhythm.
I chastise myself for being so stupid, but I also understand why one might want to just be able to just sit back and chill out with a glass or two, but, for me at least, it's just not a sensible option.
Interestingly my cardiologist is forever advising me to have a glass or two and doesn't believe it's a trigger.
I think abstaining from alcohol is the best way to go unless you are one of the fortunate few.

Jackie,

I'm wondering if it isn't more of an indication that propafenone was the wrong drug for me. Even in the absence of betas, propafenone itself has secondary beta-blocking effects. I think, given my daily running and high vagal tone, that the "slowing" effect was too much and a little bit of "juice" was enough to overcome it. Maybe flec would've been a better choice for me. I have no idea and no wish to repeat the experiment!

Wolfpack - very well could be. I know that I didn't get along with either BB's or propafenone... took my HR down way too low and I felt terrible. I did use flecainide for a number of years and that worked quite well... until it didn't... as I started to have more a-flutter than afib.

Jackie