Natto and/or k2mk7

I have had rare episodes of afib for 15 years Take natto sdk (?), magnesium glycinate, etc. Recently diagnosed with osteopenia. Natto and k2mk7?. Either, or?? I Am not on coumadin and probably would use eliquis if need be some day. Any thoughts? I did read some of jackie's in the archives but nothing about both together. Seems like both too much since there is some natto in rhe k2mk7. Thanks to the more knowledgeable.

Hi - you definitely can use the NK and K2MK7 together... in fact, we've mentioned that quite a bit over the years. They are compatible.

The only time you have to back off on the NK is if you would begin one of the new anticoags just to be sure you don't over thin the blood. But you still can use the K2 MK7. I'm on Eliquis and I use K2 MK7, 200 mcg daily. My bones density is healthy.

When they isolate the final nattokinase end-product out of the Bacillus subtilis natto fungus one of the things discarded in the process is the vitamin K2 MK 7 aka menaquinone 7. The US Nattokinase expert, Ralph O. Holsworth, DO, worked with the Japanese who formulated the supplement form of Nattokinase and as a result of that process, Dr. Holsworth was instrumental in capturing the MK7 to use as well. Initially it was sold just as Menaquinone 7 or MK7, but now it's often combined with a vitamin K Trio product that contains small amounts of the K1 and menaquinone 4 and the 7.

If you're curious enough to read more... go to this link which is the Conference Room Proceedings and scroll down to Sessions 39 and 40 which details relevant information on using Nattokinase [www.afibbers.org]

I can send you info on a natural product that helps restore bone density...Just send me a PM. Actually, I'm in the process of doing a mini-report on it right now... but I'll be happy to share in advance of that. No drugs, all naturally proven over 25 years of effective bone density restoration.

Jackie

WOW. Thanks Jackie, just what i was looking for. Interesting read!

Jackie:

How do you know that your bone density is healthy? Did you get an X-ray or bone scan?

You recommend Natto, I can't take Natto it gives me aura migraines, I asked Dr. Brownstein about vit. K,, he doesn't sell it, says he hasn't found a good one. I was taking Vit. K-7 but since running out I havn't gotten a new supply.

I have read that many forms of arthritis have an infectious etiology and that it will respond to antibiotic therapy, if that is the case, doubtful that Natto will help a lot. Of course we need adequate amounts of vitamins and minerals plus hormones.

Dr. Brownstein says we need Vitamins B-12 and B6, Vit. D, Magnesium, Omega 3s and Selenium. He recommends DHEA (I cannot take this) natural Testosterone, natural Progesterone. Brownstein also recommends a physiologic dose of Hydrocortisone along with Natural hormones. Also drinking adequate amounts of water helps a lot, I am not very good with this, I know I don't drink enough water.

Liz.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2015 03:00PM by Elizabeth.

Liz - I've had the DXA (densitometry) scan every three years for many years. This year, we decided since my density has been so good up to this point, there is no need to continue as I don't expect a regression of anything. I've been using the preferred, natural form of K2 MK7 since about 2002 as a result of conversations I had back then with Dr. Holsworth since he was working closely at the time with the Vitamin K PhD researchers at the University of Maastricht (Netherlands) ... Drs Leon Schurgers and Cees Vermeer. Obviously, I'm pleased with the results.

Nattokinase is for the managing the blood hyperviscosity issue. As mentioned in the Conference Room Sessions 39 and 40 on the Nattokinase topic, those sensitive to NK should consider using Boulouke or Lumbrokinase or the stronger type of Serrapeptase.

Bone health is helped tremendously by the proper non-synthetic form of Vitamin K2 MK7 - which is the menaquinone 7 isomer of Vitamin K. Tons of science proving the efficacy.

It's unfortunate that Dr. Brownstein hasn't recommended the MK7 to you. There's so much information out there it's hard for doctors to know everything, but the K2 MK7 benefits and efficacy has been firmly in place for a long time.

Over the years, I've directed forum readers to the MenaQ link on Bone Health... go here: [menaq7.com] because the importance of K2MK7 is not just for bone health... it's also highly effective in reducing the tendency to form arterial and aortic calcifications. The second box on that MenaQ page offers that. As stated repeatedly, the K2 MK7 helps direct circulating calcium into bones where it belongs so it doesn't collect in soft tissues. Now that vitamin D optimization is a major focus, the K2 MK7 function even more important.

I'll also be posting soon in a separate post about Bone Morphogenic Proteins that help regenerate new bone and cartilage as part of my "Healthy Aging Tips" project.

Jackie

Jackie:

I have been using K2 MK7 for a number of years, Vit D (not so much in the summer months) and a supplement called Limbex, in the winter months I do take Cod Liver oil by Carlsons. I work physically hard, so I get exercise for my bones, perhaps I work too hard as I did hurt myself last year.

On my X-rays, it shows mild Osteopenia, I still have some pain when getting up from a seated position, then I am ok, I am a lot better than I was some months ago, but I am open to any suggestions. I too found it strange that Dr. Brownstein said that he hasn't found a good form of K2, so he doesn't offer it, however, he believes the supplement Limbex is good for bone health and I take that. I will try the K2 MK7 shown on your UrL.

I saw Dr. Brownstein last Wed., and he took a lot of blood, so I will find out next week how everything is.

Liz

Elizabeth,

I may have mentioned this before but the best supplement for this is Strontium Citrate.

My sister has had excellent results using it.

Liz – I checked on the Limbex which is apparently Dr. Brownstein’s own label and formulation. It targets joint mobility and joint pain and contains the well-known, useful ingredients for that purpose. It doesn’t mention bone building or regeneration. [www.medixselect.com]

To support bone regeneration, read about Bone Morphogenic Protein... at this website...[www.zycalbio.com]
for Cyplexinol.

A product that contains the BMP that I've used for bone support is by Designs for Health and is called TRF 150... contains Cyplexinol™ Collagen and Bone Morphogenetic Proteins - 150 mg - one capsule a day.
TRF = Tissue Regeneration Factor... meaning both bone and cartilage tissue


The following is from the DFH TRF 150 product data sheet:

TRF 150™ contains unique bone and cartilage growth factors
called bone morphogenetic proteins (BMPs). BMPs were originally
developed in the 1990s and used by orthopedic surgeons for
bone healing and spinal fusions. Since then, millions of patients
have had bone and cartilage grown with great success. TRF 150™
is the first oral protein complex to contain these same BMPs and
associated growth factors that can facilitate the growth of new
bone and cartilage.

TRF 150™ features 150 mg of Cyplexinol™, a
bone-derived protein/collagen complex containing biologically
active proteins known as Bone Morphogenetic Proteins
(BMPs) as well as key growth factors naturally contained in
bone, such as Transforming Growth Factor Beta (TGF-β),
Insulin-like Growth Factor (IGF), Platelet Derived Growth
Factor (PDGF), and Basic Fibroblast Growth Factor
(BFGF). TRF 150's Cyplexinol™ is derived from certified
organic, bovine cortical bone.

The proteins contained in TRF 150™ (BMPs) are the components that activate the bone and cartilage-forming
process, which is necessary for bone health and joint integrity/regeneration (Bobacz K, et al, Arthritis Rheum, 2003).
Research shows that BMPs are more effective when used in combination with growth factors such as insulin-like
growth factor, which is present in TRF 150™ (Chubinskaya S, Osteoarthritis Cartilage, 2007).

BMPs found in TRF 150™ are important morphogenic agents, as they play a role in the differentiation and growth
of tissues during the body’s development with multiple functions in regulating the development, homeostasis and
repair of various tissues. TRF 150™ is well-absorbed, as receptors for BMPs are able to permeate the GI tract.

TRF 150™ works in two ways:
1. Stimulates new bone formation (Osteoinductive)
2. Anti-inflammatory effect

1. Stimulating new bone formation – The Osteoinductive Effect
TRF 150™ is a bone anabolic agent (tissue regenerating), exerting its effect on bone by increasing bone formation and reducing bone resorption (Simic P, et al, J Biol Chem, 2006). It is actually the bone morphogenetic proteins that are osteoinductive, as they stimulate mesenchymal stem cells and differentiate them into osteoblasts (produce bone tissue) and chondrocytes (produce cartilage). Oral supplementation of TRF 150™ has been shown to have a direct effect on bone metabolism, affecting the protein collegen complex found in TRF 150™ and biomarkers such as bone collagen, bone hydroxyproline (amino acid that occurs in collagen and other connective tissue proteins), and bone protein synthesis (Martínez JA, et al, J. Rev Esp Fisiol. 1993).

2. Anti-inflammatory Effect (Immunoprotective)
Bone morphogenetic proteins have an immunoprotective effect by exhibiting antagonist activity towards key
pro-inflammatory cytokines (such as IL-1 and IL-6) and transcription factors, all of which are responsible for
inflammation (Chubinskaya S, Osteoarthritis Cartilage, 2007). IL-1 activates NF-kβ transcription factor and matrix metalloproteinases (group of zinc-dependent enzymes which can break down proteins such as extracellular matrix proteins). Thus, BMPs work to suppress major inflammatory cytokines, leading to the restoration of joint and cartilage homeostasis. In a clinical trial on Cyplexinol™, its osteoinductive proteins have been reported to yield significant improvement in the reduction of joint pain and frequency of pain with an increase in activity level and joint strength in those with osteoarthritis (Garian, R, DC, CALDOP Trial, data on file).
TRF 150™ and Osteoporosis

Bone loss during aging and in post-menopausal women results from an imbalance between bone formation and resorption, which leads to an alteration in bone architecture and various degrees of bone fragility. Loss of bone strength and an increased number of bone fractures in patients with osteoporosis may be associated with a decreased capacity for bone regeneration, which is related to the lower content of BMPs and growth factors in the bone’s matrix. Since TRF 150™ is considered a bone anabolic agent, it can play an integral role in helping to decrease the progression and symptoms of osteoporosis.

Research shows that BMPs improve bone mineral density.

Jackie

Sam:

I have a book by Dr. Brownstein called "Overcoming Arthritis" and he does say to take Strontium, I don't take that, I will order it, thanks.

Liz

Liz - Be aware that last year this announcement was made regarding the use of strontium for bone health and because of these findings, several of the professional grade supplement producers have removed strontium ranelate from their bone health formulas. There are probably many other reports, I just looked quickly and found these two, but I remember the bulletins that came out at the time about product reformulations.

Jackie

Strontium should no longer be used for osteoporosis treatment, warns European Agency
Published on January 19, 2014 [www.news-medical.net]

And this one from 2013...[www.osteonaturals.com]

Saturday, February 9, 2013
Strontium for Osteoporosis? An Update on Safety
The safety of using strontium for treating osteoporosis is a hotly debated topic. In my October 20, 2012 blog post, I voiced my concerns. In this post I would like to briefly add to this discussion.

The body absorbs and uses strontium as if it were calcium. With 99% of the body's calcium stores located in the skeleton, it's no wonder that high-dose strontium readily finds its way into bone. With it's high atomic number, strontium readily increases bone density as demonstrated on bone mineral density (DXA) exams. But calcium is important for more than just making our skeleton harder. Calcium is also necessary for nerve contractions, colon health, maintaining normal blood pressure, hormone production and enzymatic reactions.

Because of this, there are concerns that replacing calcium with atoms of strontium in these key areas could have the potential to create adverse effects. For example, strontium can replace calcium at nerve synapses and retard the flow of nerve impulses. In fact, neurological disorders have been reported with strontium ranelate (Reginster et al., 2012) including memory loss (annual incidence 1.1%). Increased cancer risk is also a concern. A recent study out of China (Chen et al., 2012) found high strontium levels in premenopausal women to have a 124% increased risk of breast cancer.

Safety studies of strontium ranelate show increased risk for serious skin reactions (DRESS) and a 50% increased risk in venous thromboembolisms (VTE), including pulmonary embolisms. A new study published in France linked 199 severe adverse reactions to strontium ranelate (52% were cardiovascular related). These reports prompted safety concerns and a review by the European Medicines Agency (EMA/CHMP). Their official assessment report was issued on May 25, 2012 and concluded that "new contraindications and revised warnings should be included in the product information. Strontium ranelate should not be used in patients with VTE or those temporarily or permanently immobilized."

Jackie:

You know I never took Strontium because of what it reminded me of--atomic spill--but I did read that it was good for bone health. Well, after reading your post I guess I won't take the supplement.

I did some reading about Ostinol, which contains Cyplexianol which is a stem cell activator, I read that there hasn't been any long term studies regarding growth factors. How long have you been taking the supplement and have you had any reactions, why did you start taking this supplement if you have good bone health and what if any changes did you have?

Liz

Elizabeth,

It's worth noting that Jackie's post deals with Strontium Ranelate not the one I recommended, Strontium Citrate.

Ranelate contains a synthetic element added to the Strontium so that the drug company could patent it.

Many studies have shown that the natural Citrate version is safe and the side effects are seen with the Ranelate version.

A Google search will allow you to access these studies and allow you to make an informed decision.

Sam

Liz – my healthy bone protocols which include workouts with weights to stimulate healthy bone turnover have all been preventive in nature and physician directed. Better to prevent than try to play catch-up after the fact, she says.

Long ago when my vitamin D levels were so very low, I added bone support nutrients along with Vitamin D3 and had regular testing to monitor that progress. The DEXA scans were also preventive monitoring as I never had a substandard reading.

I added the bone morphogenic protein support (TRF 150) a few years ago when it became available… but many years prior to that, I began using Dr. Holsworth’s K2 MK7 for prevention as well.

The Bone Morphogenic Protein has over 25 years successful use and is well documented. Check out some of the highlighted reports at this link. [www.zycalbio.com]

I will be doing a formal report on BMP use in one of my Healthy Aging Tips.

Jackie

Jackie:

I asked Dr. Brownstein about that supplement that you are taking for bones and he knows about it but says he hasn't found it to be a good one. I am taking his supplement for bones (limbex) Limbex contains Chondrotin and Glucosamine, your supplement also contains these two in addition to Cyplexinol.

Believe me, I do a lot of heavy exercise, I work hard in my garden and yard so I don't need to go to the gym. I think for a person my age to have mild Osteopenia isn't bad but I still want to do better.

Liz

Liz - whatever works for you and Dr. Brownstein... you asked; I offered. Based on the research and patient results over the 25 years that bone morphogenic protein has been utilized to improve bone quality, I would think you'd want the added advantage from the BMP or Cyplexinol and not just that for the joint/cartilage support. Since you had that trauma, you expressed concern and I was merely responding.

I wish you well.

Jackie



Stimulating new bone formation – The Osteoinductive Effect
TRF is a bone anabolic agent (tissue regenerating), reducing bone resorption (Simic P, et al, J Biol Chem, 2006). It is actually the bone morphogenetic proteins that are osteoinductive, as they stimulate mesenchymal stem cells and differentiate them into osteoblasts (produce bone tissue) and chondrocytes (produce cartilage). Oral supplementation of TRF has been shown to have a direct effect on bone metabolism, affecting the protein collagen complex found in TRF and biomarkers such as bone collagen, bone hydroxyproline (amino acid that occurs in collagen and other connective tissue proteins), and bone protein synthesis (Martínez JA, et al, J. Rev Esp Fisiol. 1993).