Magnesium IV Didn't Stop PACs--Need Advice

I've been having premature atrial contractions (PACs) daily for almost 2 months now. On July 18, I received an IV of 3 mg of magnesium with a Myers cocktail. The PACs stopped almost completely for 10 days. I then had another IV of 2 mg magnesium with a Myers cocktail but without the "B" vitamins on August 1. (I had insomnia for 2 nights after the first IV and thought the "B" vitamins may have been too stimulating, causing the insomnia, so we left them out of the 2nd IV). I had no sleep issues after the 2nd IV, but it did not stop the PACs at all! I have since read that B6 is needed to absorb magnesium. Could this be why the 2nd magnesium IV didn't work, or could there be another cause? I started taking 25 mg of P5P (activated vitamin B6) a couple days after the IV, but the PACs haven't stopped.

I didn't need to supplement with any potassium after the first IV for it to take away the PACs. Now I have been supplementing with 300-500 mg of potassium at a time, and it works for a couple hours, then the PACs come back. I'm up to 1600 mg of potassium gluconate a day, and am getting loose stools from it. I've been trying to add high potassium foods to my diet, but I am presently sensitive to latex foods (cantaloupe, potato, carrot, cashews, avocado, kiwi, etc), so am having trouble meeting this goal. I hope to get these foods "cleared" by my nutritionist in a couple days. Since my potassium dissipates so quickly, does this mean that my magnesium is insufficient to "Hold" the potassium in the cells? Or is it normal to have to supplement with potassium at every meal, and how much is usually needed?

In doing some research on magnesium IVs, I came across some information (supplied by our own Erling Waller on The Magnesium Online Library dealing with the topic of "Intractable Magnesium Deficiency") saying that once magnesium levels in a cell get too low, that one needs to get 3 magnesium IVs of 2 grams a week for 2 weeks. Does anyone have information that would corroborate this?

Below is the information quoted by Erling. It is a great explanation of how the magnesium pump works (or fails to work) and why someone would need the IV magnesium treatments. [www.mgwater.com]


1) From the booklet Magnesium by Alan R. Gaby M.D. (also M.S. bio-chemistry), Keats Publishing, Inc., 1994, ISBN 0-87983-602-4, $3.95:

"As disease progresses, cells lose their ability to function properly. Most of the cells of the body maintain a very high magnesium concentration relative to that in the blood serum. For example, there is about ten times as much magnesium inside the cells of a healthy heart as there is in the serum. This high concentration of magnesium is necessary for cells to perform their various biochemical tasks. However, maintaining this steep concentration gradient between cells and blood requires a great deal of energy. The laws of random motion cause magnesium ions to leak continually out of the cells and into the bloodstream. Each time a magnesium ion leaks out, another one must be pulled back in by special pumps that reside on the cell membrane. Pulling against a concentration gradient is analogous to swimming upstream or to carrying bowling balls up a hill, only to see them roll right back down. As inefficient as that sounds, that is how the body works. Indeed, a substantial proportion of the calories you burn each day are used to maintain higher concentrations of some nutrients inside cells than in the bloodstream. When you become ill, some of the cells in your body may become less efficient in holding on to magnesium. The cell membranes may break down, allowing more magnesium to leak out. In addition, the cell membrane pumps that pull magnesium back in may also be weakened by disease. The end result is that disease itself can be a cause of magnesium deficiency. Since magnesium deficiency may have been one of the original causes of the disease, a vicious cycle of greater deficiency and increasingly severe disease may result."

Dr. Gaby goes on to say:
"... a substantial minority of patients ... fail to improve after taking oral magnesium for months or even years. In these cases, administering magnesium by injection is necessary to overcome their medical problems."

2) From the Forum and Bulletin Board for magnesium headed by Walt Stoll, M.D. at [askwaltstollmd.com]

"Magnesium metabolism has one quirk in that, if the level is low enough (in that person) to cause symptoms, it is low enough that the body loses its ability to absorb it efficiently orally. Since it is almost impossible to hurt someone by giving them too much magnesium, doing a therapeutic trial of an easily absorbed (orally) form of chelated magnesium (orotate, aspartate or glycinate) might be tried by anyone."

"This paragraph is just to warn those who try it that way--and get no results--not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. They may just be not absorbing it orally. For those, they will need intravenous infusions of at least 2 grams of elemental magnesium/IV about 3 times a week for 2 weeks. This can be injected over a period of about 5 minutes with no risk or negative side effects. By then, they should be able to absorb it orally for maintenance. By then, they will also know if their bodymind laboratory says they needed it (Did they get better?)"

In another section of this document, it stated, "Dr. Russ Jaffe recommends using choline with magnesium supplements to enhance assimilation. It is available in capsules or from Perque Labs in liquid form." Has anyone used choline for this purpose?

Still another suggestion by Prof. R.B. Singh, MD: "Please try magnesium + potassium+ coenzyme Q10+ aldactone thrice darily with meals for a week in patients with normal renal function for desired benefit. The later two would be able to retain intracullular and blood Mg." Has anyone tried aldactone?

Thanks for your help.
Blessings,
Nancy M

Good questions Nancy. I'm going to ride your coat tails looking for an answer to this. My potassium (K) is staying relentlessly low. I have increased my intake of supplements and K rich foods to well over the recommended 4700mg per day. In the past I have had a few times when the K has spiked to a high level and in my notes it is at times I have been applying Mg intradermally through spray, foot soaks and bath soaks. Along with a low K level comes a hard, or strong heart beat, which in the past would trigger afib. The ablation is holding, but this condition is making me nervous and I want to do anything possible to correct it.
Ron

Nancy - I have a response for you... stand by. And, Ron, it will be useful to you as well.


Jackie

Nancy –

Sorry for the delay – There is much to understand on this very important topic.

While the general concept is covered in the Magnesium Absorption report, that needs an updating or refinement to include the very exciting findings on what’s really at the ‘heart’ or core of why nutrients may not be able to perform as expected even when taken in large amounts. This has to do with the health of cell membranes that not only cover the outside of cells but also that of the internal components (organelles)…including the highly-important mitochondria.

We know that if the cell’s coverings and layers are damaged by oxidative stress and toxic chemicals and electropollution from environmental insults that are nearly unavoidable, then the cell can’t take in the nutrients no matter how they are delivered… oral or IM/IV. Taking in nutrients by food and supplements orally means metabolizing or processing so they reach the blood stream in usable forms. That’s one hurdle.

Then, the nutrients delivered to the cells must gain access inside the cells via various transport mechanisms.. active and passive transport…but the key issue is whether the pumps that deliver by active/electrical transport are themselves functional or the membranes through which the nutrients pass are healthy, flexible and offer unimpaired receptor sites, is totally another hurdle.

And it all comes down to the status of the all the cells’ membranes… if they are unhealthy, clogged, torn or dying, the nutrients will not get inside and the expected result will not happen because the nutrients either don’t get in or quickly leak out again. This ‘disrepair’ or lack of cell envelope and wall integrity impairs electronic function.. and nothing works as it should.

Erling often referenced the brilliance of Bruce Lipton…i.e.,

….. “Quantum cell biologist Bruce Lipton, PhD (The Biology Of Belief, 2011): Cellular constituents are woven into a complex web of crosstalk, feedback, and feed-forward communication loops. A biological dysfunction may arise from a miscommunication among any of the routes of communication flow... The physical sciences have already embraced quantum physics with sensational results... It's been a long time coming, but the quantum biological revolution is nigh.” [read more in my post to Ron at this link: [www.afibbers.org]]

Now comes a hugely important piece of the puzzle which has to do with cell membrane repair and healthy function. Erling brought up the topic about three years ago and it failed to gain traction but now is the time to learn about and focus on what all of us need to do to ensure the health of cell membranes so they can function optimally and we can benefit from our nutrition.

I’ll be putting together a report eventually, but meanwhile, we all should take the time to delve into the science behind Lipid Replacement Therapy (LRT®)…through using Nutritional Therapies Factor.® Undoubtedly, you’ve heard the name, Garth Nicholson, PhD… a brilliant scientist involved in Mycoplasma exposure and other stealth pathogens. About 40 years ago in the early ‘70’s, he and scientist, S. J. Singer “deciphered the actual biochemical structure of the cellular membrane.” Last year, more science has brought forth the actual repair of the membrane and restoring the body to health by the lipid replacement therapy protocols.

When afibbers aren’t finding the effects of nutritional therapeutics to be helpful, then the flag should go up for the core cause of ‘broken cell membranes.’ The good news is, there is help to repair those membranes and restore health to the body.

Your research should begin with Dr. Nicholson’s website… [ntfactor.com]
Follow all of the links. There is an such an abundance of critically important information, one can be lost for days researching there.
I’ve been totally immersed and I will be using the NT Factor product. Reports will be forthcoming.

Also read this great report on how it all began:

Repair the Membrane, Restore the Body: A Breakthrough Discovery Comes of Age
Posted on August 24, 2012 by Michael Ash in News
By Dr Stephen Levine PhD.

This issue of FOCUS has special meaning for me. It reaches back in time to the incredible excitement generated in the early 1970’s by the stunning discoveries of Singer and Nicolson. These two scientists deciphered the actual biochemical structure of the cellular membrane. They called it the Lipid Bi-Layer Fluid Mosaic Model. I was a graduate student in genetics at UC Berkeley. Their model was talked about in laboratories, over lunch tables, and in classrooms. It was a truly exciting time.

[continue] [www.nleducation.co.uk]



Nancy – email me when you have a moment. I want to share my thoughts on your situation.

Jackie

Jackie,

Thanks as always for this and your other posts. Please do keep us appraised of your research on the NT Factor products. Indeed, it seems that they offer a multitude of products. I'd be interested in learning where you begin with their offerings.

--Lance

Lance - thank you. I will. Keep watching. For the past several years, my focus has been on Restorative or Regenerative Medicine... so that we all can age well and remain healthy. This is very exciting science. Coupled with the Energy Medicine factor so prevalent in these circles as well, it just makes sense to stay on top of what's currently providing success. And, they are many.

My ears perk up when I see statements such as: "Supports normal mitochondrial membrane potential and ATP energy production" since the heart has the highest concentration of mitochondria in the body and I want to keep them all healthy, happy and functioning optimally.

Further, Garry Gordon MD, DO MD(H) recently commented about energy medicine and quantum biophysics as it relates to Western Medicine…

"Photons and Bio-photons are the basis of life, the invisible force. Immeasurable means Incurable by Western medical science. If it can’t be measured, it can’t be cured. Quantum Physics, the crown of Western science, addressed the basis of energy fields at the sub-atomic levels, yet Western medicine doesn’t apply the thinking of photons and energy medicine into the biology of human energy fields.

Bio-cybernetics and energy medicine understand that “invisible energy fields” exist and can be measured based on the ancient principles of Acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine. Curing the “incurable” can become possible when we can measure the “immeasurable.”
He further says: I believe that tells you that if you are not learning energy medicine, you are not keeping up. end quote

So - I plan to "keep up" so I can utilize what is practical for me and I'm certainly willing to share with others who are interested as well.

Be well,
Jackie

Just stay away from the Potassium suppositories folks. They taste awful.

I am supplementing about 1500mg. Potassium in the AM and the same in the evening. No problems with bowel tolerance. I usually take it in the form of Low Sodium V8 or Potassium Gluconate dissolved in seltzer water (it fizzes and the bubbles go up my nose).

Keeps the ticker calm. If I am skipping beats or whatever, I take up to 2100mg. Potassium Gluconate dissolved in seltzer water and they are gone within 20 minutes or so.

Just my personal experience. Jackie, just another public thank-you for sharing your experience and knowledge. Don't know what we would do without you and the other "rocks" on this board. You are a blessing.

MY EP does not wish to see me for a year! (As long as I remain in NSR on Tikosyn)

Murray L

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Tikosyn uptake Dec 2011 500ug b.i.d. NSR since!
Herein lies opinion, not professional advice, which all are well advised to seek.

Thanks, everyone, for your help. The people on this BB are wonderful! I feel so blessed that I found this forum.

Jackie, the NT Factor product is not new to me. I was taking NT Factor with B Complex for about 6 months, but perhaps I wasn't taking enough of it to heal my cells. I have emailed you to discuss this more.

RonB and Murray, there is a reason that we need so much potassium to keep our hearts quiet. This isn't normal, and it's important to dig for the answer. In my case, my nutritionist has just discovered that I am low in the B vitamins and that I have very high homocysteine, which can cause arrhythmia. He says that B2 and B3 are needed for ATP, and my B2 and B3 are both way too low, thus I'm not able to take in the nutrients/supplements I need, and the broken cycle continues. He has put me on three different types of B vitamins--100 mg a day of sublingual B6, a B complex sublingual, and a capsule of B complex, all which have very high doses of the B vitamins--in hopes of correcting this problem. Will keep you posted on what happens.

Many blessings to you all,
Nancy M

Nancy, good clue. I have been on a quest to reduce the number of supplements that pass my lips. I was taking a B complex morning and dinner, but have eliminated the late one. I was told that B's have about a 12 hour life, so if this is true I could be getting depleted at night. The B12 serum levels were checked recently and found to be OK, but the test was done in the morning.

I am finding by way of frequent testing with my Cardy Meter that my levels of K can fluctuate dramatically through a 24 hour period. At night the levels drop, and this is when my heart becomes very anxious with a pronounced beat. Maybe, just maybe my B's are affecting this. I will have the conversation with my doc this week.

I have stressed adrenals and have been questioning whether the night time levels of cortisol are affecting this.

Thanks for the tip.
Ron

I am also supplementing with B vitamins; posted my list elsewhere a while back. It's the potassium and the sodium for me. Keep the Potassium up and the sodium down and I get along gangbusters. Get lazy with either and I am headed for trouble. The rest of the supplements just keep me level. If I shortchange myself with any of them I seem to feel it in one way or another.

Murray L

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Tikosyn uptake Dec 2011 500ug b.i.d. NSR since!
Herein lies opinion, not professional advice, which all are well advised to seek.

Nancy and Ron - with the B vitamins, it's almost always recommended to take it in the morning or at least before noon and with food as it can causee nausea on an empty stomach. Later in the day is too stimulating and people frequently report trouble sleeping. Reversing defects in the methylation cycle with all of the appropriate B's takes a considerable amount of time and the specific B's have to be in the most usable forms.

Nancy-- -Designs for Health has a specific formulation for Homocysteine lowering.to use along with just one dose of the B Supreme. Or consider also consider adding to that extra doses of the L-MTHFR from DFH.

With continually low potassium (when you are eating a diet high in potassium rich foods and supplementing as well) ... suspect a wasting problem and look to kidney dysfunction. See a nephrologist for an evaluation. If kidneys check out as healthy, then, it's safe to add in generous amounts of potassium regularly throughout the day to help maintain levels that support NSR. When your potassium borders on low continually, you are going to have missed beats or AF. And, unless your IC magnesium remains optimal, adding more potassium without correcting the IC magnesium level just makes AF worse.

Obviously, check your food sources of competing sodium to rule that out as well.

Jackie

Jackie,

When I saw my nutritionist on Thursday, he said that I am only absorbing 4% of the 600 mg of Designs for Health magnesium glycinate into my tissues, but he said that even someone who is healthy will only absorb about 30%. I didn't ask him how much of the 300 mg of topical magnesium oil or epson salt baths is getting absorbed. I am only taking 300 mg of potassium glyconate at each of my six meals/snacks so as not to overdue it and make my PACs worse. Does this sound reasonable?

You said that "Reversing defects in the methylation cycle with all of the appropriate B's takes a considerable amount of time and the specific B's have to be in the most usable forms." How long would you estimate this to be? My nutritionist thought I should be doing much better in two weeks, but it sounds like that may not be the case.

I think my nutritionist was trying to give me "the most useable forms" by give me sublingual vitamin B's, but unfortunately my throat, mouth, and tongue broke out in sores after taking the sublingual B6 for two days and I have stopped it today. I found that it contains citric acid, which may be the culprit. Instead, I am taking 50 mg of Solgar P-5-P tablets at breakfast and noon to replace it. I will pass on the other supplement info. to him that you discussed.

Thanks so much for all your help.
Nancy M

Nancy - It's important for you (and your nutritionist) to realize that absorption of the nutrient means ... getting it into the blood stream in a usable form or bioavailable form so that the body can actually use it... The next challenge after that as I said in another post...is getting it inside the cells... in the case of afibber...inside heart cells where it functions. If it's only staying in the blood, it doesn't help the heart cells.

I am curious to know by what method he calculated that you are currently absorbing only 4% of your magnesium glycinate intake.

This is the reason I initially mentioned the NTFactor science involving repair of damaged cell envelopes and damaged envelopes for the individual mitochondria and other organelles. If you have cell wall disrepair and various stages of disintegration, you won't be able to 1) assimilate or take in the nutrients and 2) even if you do take them in, they will probably leak out because of the lack of functioning of the wall itself but more importantly, the various electronic mechanisms (ion pumps) in the cell walls that direct cell utilization, function and waste cleanup... (the body's own detox system).

Since you are so very hypersensitive to such a variety of elements, it would signal to me that you are not able to get those nutrients inside the cells and keep them there. The natural surveilence of the immune system automatically become hyper-vigilent when cells leak and the host (you) responds with various sensitivity reactions...just as you report. The B vitamins required for an efficient and properly-functioning methylation cycle can take much longer than 2 weeks to become fully efficient and optimally functional. .... and if you have cell-envelope (lipid layer) damage, it may not be possible until that is completely restored or actually replaced during the natural cell renewal process, assuming there is adequate amino acid building blocks and phospholipids available.

As for your intake of potassium by supplementing.... the only way to know for sure what's coming close to adequate is to keep a daily diary/log of the foods you eat and the potassium and sodium content of each. If you aren't close to the minimum recommendation of 4700 mg (which many feel is inadequate), then you'll know how much more supplement or foods you need to add. Foods are always preferable to supplements when it comes to potassium, but the potassium gluconate powder is easy and quick and definitely measureable. Calculate your ratio of potassium to sodium intake in foods so you know if you are close to the recommended minimum of 4:1 (K to Na).

I will be expanding on the Lipid Replacement Therapy and will respond more to Lance in his new thread...I'm just pressed for time and rather than do a disorganized post that may leave out important details, I'm putting that aside while interested readers can follow the large amount of science offered at that website.

Bet to you,
Jackie

Jackie,

Not a pretty picture regarding my cell damage!! I have been researching NT Factor again, and it sound like something I need; however, like Lance, I don't know how to deal with the calcium in the products. If you have any ideas about this, I'd love to know.

Nancy M.