Q's on Serrapeptase & Nattokinase (Jackie?)

I've been taking 40,000 unit serrapeptase and 3 x 2000 unit nattokinase for several months now. That said, I just did a bit of reading that suggested that it might not be wise to take them both together. Also; I'm wondering if AFrs might well all get some benefit from serrapeptase on the basis that it helps reduce fibrosis in the atria. So to my questions for Jackie, Hans and other wise folks here on this forum.

1. Given that the potent proteolytic enzyme serrapeptase can 'digest'/remove fibrin/scar tissue, and fibrosis is a widely accepted fundamental requirement for AF, then wouldn't all afibbers be well-advised to use serrapeptase?

2. Has anyone here had any success reducing their AF burden by using serrapeptase to lower levels of fibrosis in their atria?

3. Is it safe to take modest doses of serrapeptase and nattokinase together and, if so, what should one restrict daily doses/amounts to?

4. Is it essential to take enteric coated variants of serrapeptase (and nattokinase) so as to ensure that stomach acid does not reduce/remove the benefit?

Many thanks in advance for any and all input (-:

Mike F.

Hi Mike - I'm responding briefly - on the fly here - Good questions.... Two separate issues: Elevated blood viscosity and clotformation -risk … and fibrosis formation.


I've been taking 40,000 unit serrapeptase and 3 x 2000 unit nattokinase for several months now. That said, I just did a bit of reading that suggested that it might not be wise to take them both together. Also; I'm wondering if AFrs might well all get some benefit from serrapeptase on the basis that it helps reduce fibrosis in the atria. So to my questions for Jackie, Hans and other wise folks here on this forum.

I take both the SP and NK myself... in fact, one professional product formulation contains both.. but not at the 40K units of SP... My label says:
Serrazimes - 20,00 U and Nattozimes 4,516 in one capsule. I take additional NK separately so that I always have at least 6000 a day. My fibrinogen went up lately, so I've increased the NK to 8,000 a day.

1. Given that the potent proteolytic enzyme serrapeptase can 'digest'/remove fibrin/scar tissue, and fibrosis is a widely accepted fundamental requirement for AF, then wouldn't all afibbers be well-advised to use serrapeptase?

My comment is yes; both are useful and important. See my comments after your questions.


2. Has anyone here had any success reducing their AF burden by using serrapeptase to lower levels of fibrosis in their atria?

In my comments that follow, I am very confident that the use of the serrazyme prior to and post ablation have allowed the success of my 2003 ablation to continue.

3. Is it safe to take modest doses of serrapeptase and nattokinase together and, if so, what should one restrict daily doses/amounts to?
Yes...see previous comment

4. Is it essential to take enteric coated variants of serrapeptase (and nattokinase) so as to ensure that stomach acid does not reduce/remove the benefit?
As near as I can determine in all my years of research.... it depends on how they formulate the product. Some formulators apparently can treat or make the product itself resistant to stomach acid and do not need the enteric coating; and others, still need the coating. See the clips I've offered below pulled from my research files. You'll probably need to research each brand to learn whether theirs can withstand stomach acid or must be enteric coated.

Hope this helps!
Good to see you posting, Mike. Hope all is well.
Jackie

Measuring Blood Viscosity to Improve Patient Outcomes
by Pushpa Larsen, ND, and Ralph Holsworth, DO
[www.townsendletter.com]
[meridianvalleylab.com]

Shannon’s post have described his protocols supervised by Meridian Valley and Dr. Holsworth to improve and monitor his blood viscosity while he awaits the LAA isolation procedure. The Meridian Valley Hemathix testing is now considered the state of the art and most advanced predictor and monitoring system currently available and certainly a valuable asset for afibbers.

You may recall that initially about 10 years ago, I studied this topic extensively and made it a point to interview various companies producing the fibrinolytic and proteolytic enzymes and had regular conversations with the US NIK expert, Ralph Holsworth, DO. Prior to my 2003 ablation, I began using a Vitalzym product along with a nattokinase product. I was looking for something that would help me avoid a prolonged exposure to using warfarin because I don’t tolerate that well at all. While I did have to follow the pre-ablation protocol for warfarin a month or so prior to and then six weeks after, I got off warfarin as quickly as I could and went back to Nattokinase.

I specifically asked Dr. Natale about the ablation scar reduction potential and although he said he was not that familiar (then) with NK, he did not have any concern that it would ‘undo’ the ablation scars because it's actually not the scars but the fact that the abberant nerve pathways (signalling betweenthe gap junctions) are destroyed and that determines the efficacy of the ablation.

You may recall my LAA clot history which points out the efficacy of NK on dissolving clots... I was off warfarin and back using nattokinase when I had the AF breakthrough at 103 days post ablation and had to be cardioverted at hour 39. That resulted in the formation of a clot in my LAA which showed on the requisite spiral CT scan prior to my post-ablation 3-month plus checkup… but it was not flagged as present at the time and I didn’t learn about it until I received my copy of the CT report and saw the notation. When I talked with Natale’s nurse about the oversight, I said that ought to be proof to everyone at the CCF that NK works and I’m alive to boast about it!

From that time one, I’ve continued to use both NK for fibrinogen control and also Serrapeptidase to reduce fibrosis because I had battled fibrocystic breast disease and was wanting to prevent further issues. As a result, I feel confident those two enzymes have helped ensure that the success of my single ablation was definitely assisted by lowering or perhaps even eliminating the existing cardiac fibrosis that was undoubtedly present since we know that magnesium deficiency causes fibrosis. We’ve acknowledged that it’s a given that those with AF are typically magnesium deficient until they start replenishing and optimizing intracellular levels. There are two conference room sessions on the Cardiac Fibrosis topic… 24 and 75.

Shannon has talked about the recommended new generation of nattokinase (CardioKinase), which is highly effective and helps ensure that we have the best possible combination for reducing clot risk and managing the tendency for hypercoagulability or elevated blood viscosity.

For managing the formation of cardiac and other forms of fibrosis, there are several well-known products that have a history of efficacy and I rely on the serrapeptase-type enzymes.

I just pulled up my old research files from when I was learning about these important enzymes … the following clips may help to clarify what exactly we are preventing by using a combination of both… NK and the SP.

Nattokinase's (NK) Effect on Fibrin/Blood Clots
“Over the years, a significant amount of medical research has been performed on enzymes and their use for circulatory and cardiovascular health. Scientists worldwide have found that vascular and circulatory disorders respond extremely well to systemic oral enzymes.” Gordon (1)
“A clot or thrombus forms when platelets and red blood cells clump together. It is the blood protein, fibrin, that “glues” them together. Fibrin is formed at the site of a clot from the soluble circulating protein, fibrinogen. If the clot forms at the site of a broken or cut blood vessel, it is appropriate, even lifesaving. If the clot forms inside a blood vessel in the absence of a wound or trauma, it is unnecessary, even life-threatening, since it may plug up a crucial heart or brain artery.

There are more than 20 enzymes involved in the coagulation cascade that creates clots, but only one enzyme – plasmin – that can dissolve fibrin and thus, break up small clots. Plasmin is a thrombolytic (clot-dissolving) enzyme and is made from plasminogen through the action of an enzyme, tissue plasminogen activator (TPA).

Natural, thrombolytic enzymes are produced in blood vessel linings, and their production decreases with age. Even in healthy peoople, fibrinogen levels rise by 25 mg/dl per decade. There are several pathways by which acute or chronic increase in fibrinogen levels can lead to a cardiovascular (or cerebrovascular) event including increased platelet aggregation and thrombus formation, and increased fibrin formation.

In other words, high fibrinogen levels tend to promote the spontaneous formation of unnecessary fibrin clots. High fibrinogen (and consiquently, high fibrin) levels are a serious risk factor for heart attacks and strokes.” South(2)

“ Underlying connective tissue weakness due to nutritional deficiencies and dysfunction of the endothelium gives rise to inflammatory and repair mechanism. Once initiated, this pro-inflammatory/pro-oxidative process is not only the underlying process of atherosclerosis and vascular dysfunction, but also causes a propensity to thrombi and thrombo-emboli.

In general, once damage has occurred to the blood and blood vessels, the process of coagulation and clotting involve the following: Damaged, weakened or traumatized blood vessel or blood vessel wall, as initiated by nutritional deficiencies, trauma, and/or infection (can be chronic or acute)è Prothrombin Activatorè Catalyzes the conversion of prothrombin to thrombinè Thrombin acts as an enzyme to convert fibrinogen into fibrin fibers è Fibrin fibers cause clotting. The final clot is composed of a meshwork of fibrin fibers, running in all directions and entrapping blood cells, platelets and plasma.
Normally, the body has its own anti-coagulants, which are able to keep balance between the pro-coagulants, allowing for repair and healing, but not overshooting to cause pathological mechanisms. However, chronic nutritional deficiencies, infection, cell senility, and/or trauma can overwhelm the body's endogenous coagulation homeostasis, resulting in thrombus and emboli.

Although it is extremely important to treat the underlying cause, such as replenishing the necessary nutritional factors to allow for the formation and repair of healthy connective tissue and to support proper endothelial function, often immediate and acute modulation of a decompensated clotting system is needed. Until now, the only tools available to target a decompensated clotting system were potent pharmaceutical agents ("clot busters") with known serious side effects.

Now, however, an ideal candidate appears to be Nattokinase, which can safely accomplish this task in many instances.
It is interesting to note that (studies show ) oral Nattokinase (NK) is more effective than Plasmin in dissolving thrombi. Research indicates that the mechanisms of Nattokinase stems from its close resemblance to endogenous plasmin; it appears to be able to dissolve fibrin directly and it may enhance the body's own production of plasmin. Furthermore, Nattokinase appears to have ACE (Angiotensin Converting Enzyme) Inhibitor activity and in studies has been able to lower Systolic Blood Pressure up to 11% and diastolic pressure up to 9.7%.” Calvino (3)

“Nattokinase acts much like plasmin and gently up-regulates the body’s anti-clotting pathways so when patients have thick blood in the morning, their body’s ability to dissolve incipient clotting is greatly increased. In studies, we have high-resolution images of NK literally eating away artificially-induced canine blood clots. NK is more potent and economically feasible than any current thrombolytic agent including urokinase. It’s a two-pronged attack, as it dissolves fibrin, it so gently (yet effectively) up-regulates the body’s own anti-clotting mechanisms. I’d rather see patients taking nattokinase and literally chewing away presumptive blood clots than meeting them later inside the confines of a hospital ICU after a heart attack or stroke…and that’s what nattokinase excels at, keeping my patients out of hospital ICUs. NK is more potent than the clot busting drugs we use there; yet, paradoxically, it is completely safe.” Gordon (1)

….. “But the fibrin is the thing…. I want to make it very clear that the fibrinogen, which we all know is a risk factor, goes up whenever C-reactive protein goes up and it goes up specifically where infection is most active. Fibrinogen is the late-phase marker of inflammation. And then it goes in the direction of a thrombus or a blood clot, so we need anti-inflammatory enzymes (like Wobenzym N) to get our C-reactive protein levels down to a healthy range.” Gordon (1)

…”We have nattokinase to help break up that thrombus, if it does go that far, and help break it into fibrin-degradation products. We know it is safe, thanks to the great clinical work that Ralph Holsworth, DO is doing now in New Mexico. We’ve already done about one million dollars worth of studies on it, so here you have something that’s backed by research that shows it would work in stroke, angina, venous stasis, thrombosis emboli, atherosclerosis, fibromyalgia, fatigue, claudication, retinal pathology, hypertension, diabetes, deep vein thrombosis and arterial embolism.” Gordon (1)


INTRO SUMMARY

It is clear to me the approach to avoiding strokes and heart attacks is by preventing inflammation which is the initiator of the whole cascade of contributory conditions…including oxidized LDL, elevated CRP, elevated fibrinogen, and elevated homocysteine. While nattokinase and serrapeptase have these properties, they are aimed more specifically or have a specificity toward breaking down and preventing clots. The second prong of the approach to prevent or reduce inflammation would be through the use of other oral systemic enzymes with high propensities for reducing inflammation such as pancreatin, bromelain, papain, chymotripsin, trypsin, rutin…all contained in Wobenzym N. Dr. Gordon works closely with Mucos Pharma of Germany and he has used this two pronged approach successfully in his practice. I’m convinced that it is important to use both a NK product and a product such as Wobenzym N which is the anti-inflammatory portion of the two pronged attack to control inflammation, clear out blood vessels, and prevent clotting.

Vitalzym Fights Fibrin Build-Up and ]Fibrosis
Fibrin is a type of protein that can form masses or webs throughout the tissues, muscles, and organs, creating a variety of health problems including inflammation, pain, and fibrosis, among others. Fibrosis is a type of scar tissue formation containing fibrin. Excess fibrous tissue is marked by the body as “foreign proteins”. When there is a buildup of excess fibrin, systemic enzymes like those in Vitalzym can help reduce these so called “foreign” proteins, which may help:
• Fight the aging process by removing the buildup of fibrin
• Reduce the formation of blood clots caused by fibrin build up
• Reduce Fibromyalgia symptoms by reduction and removal of fibrin buildup
• Reduce Endometriosis by removal of fibrin buildup
• Reduce Uterine Fibroid Tumors by removal of fibrin buildup
• Reduce Pulmonary Fibrosis by removal of fibrin buildup
• Reduce Chronic Fatigue Syndrome pain
• Reduce thickening of the blood (fibrin deposits), increasing circulation
• Unclog the microcirculation system, increasing circulation
• Reduce spider veins and wrinkles
• Reduce formation of scar tissue
• Increase penile functionality
• Reduce post-operative scar tissue, increases healing capabilities
"A Singapore Medical Journal (30( I ):48-5s4 1989 Feb) claims that enzymes eat scar tissue and fibrosis; therefore, it makes sense that replacing lost enzymes can help control and reduce the amount of scar tissue and fibrosis our bodies have."

Source: [www.energeticnutrition.com]

Jackie.

Great stuff (-:

Many thanks,

Mike F

Jackie,

Just reading about Wobenzym N.

Not sure I like the fact that it contains pig and cow pancreas!!

Vitalzym looks to be totally vegetarian though.

Having looked at the ingredients of both, I'm figuring pig and cow or not, the Wobenzym would be the most useful additin to my existing regimen of Serrapeptase and Nattokinase - would you agree Jackie? Does the pig and cow content of Wobenzym bother you at all??

Many thanks,

Mike F

Mike - the glandulars from highly reputable companies do not bother me but when I have choices, I typically go for vegetarian. The Mucos Pharma Wobenzym product has been used extensively throughout the world for a very long time. At Dr. Garry Gordon's website, he's reported his succeses with his own health and with his patients for over 20 years. I've used glandulars...such as Standard Process and currently, one by Biotics and I'm also using Armour Thyroid.

Another choice would be to look at Dr. Wong's Zymescence... he's the fibrosis expert and has abundant clinical successes using systemic enzymes to clear severe fibrosis. He was originally associated with World Nutrition and Vitalzym and then formulated his own product. If you feel uncomfortable with the glandulars, Zymescence or Vitalzym certainly is a viable option.

Jackie