3 months Afib free after taking NATTO (food)



Hi All

After suffering Afib events every month or so for 10 years, sometimes more frequent especially in the early years, this is a major breakthrough for me and I must thank Dean for encouraging me to try Natto in the first place and to thank Jackie for her encouragement and support to keep with it.

Longer serving members of this forum will know of all the things I have tried to stop this beast. I have tried them all!

For the first 3 months I had some afib setbacks but since then I have been afib free. So it's not a quick fix.

I started taking Natto on the 1st May this year. My last Afib event was 25 July, and a previous event was 21st May.....So 3 weeks after I started Natto I got Afib and then again 2 months after that (I almost gave up at that point) but now 3 months later I'm Afib free. For ever I hope!! Dean has been Afib free for 14 years now.

I have some ideas why Natto has helped stop Afib and I'm conferring with Dean because I think we are on to something.

I should make it clear that Natto is NOT nattokinase, it is the fermented soybean.

Colin

Great it worked for you, Colin! How much are you eating / day?
Wishing you all the best and lasting relief!

I've eaten 40g/day for the last year. Got persistent AF back 9/17/2018 and went into sinus yesterday 10/25. Initially i took Sotalol - only marginally reduced HR.
Two weeks ago i went onto Atenolol and Flec which kept irregular HR mostly below 100. Two days ago i upped the Flec to 100mg 2x/day.
I'm more confused than ever as to what is helpful of all the changes i've made. Now the HR is about 50 and BP 95/60 or so. (had normal BP prior to taking meds, normal BMI and heart seems to be functioning well judging by the stress test which got my HR up to 197 while in AF)

Hi Joe,

I take 40gms of natto every 2nd day.

Sorry to hear of your persistent Afib.
I have never had persistent Afib, always paroxysmal Afib. I gave up the drugs years ago, they didn't work for me. Gave me all sorts of side effects.

The only exception was flecainide, 300 mg as a pill in pocket.

Other than that I don't know how to advise you.

Colin,

Great news!!

Cheers,

George

Colin:

In May of this year I had my pace maker stop pacing me at 80 BPM (I don't know why they did that in the first place), I was getting AF a few times a month for about 6 months. From the first of May to the middle of Aug. I had no AF, about 3 and a 1/2 months. I got an episode of AF a few weeks ago, which is better than what I was getting previous to May, at least I had most of the summer AF free. Hope your Natto keeps you in NSR but at least you were in Nsr for 3 months.

Liz

Is whatever it is that does the trick in Natto food available in a good quality supplement form??

Thanks Colin I'm ok with the drugs for the time being especially since i'm in SR for the last 24hrs. I'll continue eating Natto as well as taking Mg etc. - who knows what worked (at least for the time being).

Congrats, Colin. That's great news. I'm looking forward to your progress reports and collaboration efforts with Dean.

Jackie

Quote
mwcf
Is whatever it is that does the trick in Natto food available in a good quality supplement form??

Mike, I don't think we know. If Natto isn't available in your locale, it is possible to make your own. Only issue is acquiring a desire to enjoy the odor (and for your guests, too)...

It could be in the soybeans themselves or in the fermented product the bacillus natto creates. As Dean pointed out once, the Germans in North Africa in WWII had their soldiers consuming camel feces (which also have bacillus natto) to cure otherwise fatal dysentery (after observing that is what the native population did).

I'm sure you'll think my comments are helpful

Cheers,

George



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2018 11:25PM by GeorgeN.

Quote
GeorgeN

Only issue is acquiring a desire to enjoy the odor (and for your guests, too)...

George

It's not that bad these days, just a slight yeasty small.

mwcf... Check out the Conference Room proceedings Sessions 39 and 40 - although dated, they still give the fundamentals of how and why natto (food) works to reduce inflammation etc. ... the basics and also the findings back then when it was becoming popular. [www.afibbers.org]

You should keep in mind that the enzyme form, nattokinase, helps reduce blood hyperviscosity so you should probably not use much, if any, if you are taking an Eliquis or similar.

That said, if you are looking for the best brand/type of nattokinase enzyme offered in supplement form, then the Cardiokinase by Pure Prescriptions has the credentials... check the chart offered by Dr. Holsworth [www.cardiokinase.com]

Jackie

Finally, after all these years (since 2005) someone has taken natto food seriously and so far is successful. I hope more afibbers will now try it.

I have been researching natto food trying to find out what ingredients are responsible for my and Colin's success. The stand out one is the isoflavone Genistein which natto contains a large quantity of. As you will see below Genistein is basically an antiarrythmic drug that alters cardiac ion channels.

So in reality natto food seem's to have natural antiarrythmic properties.

If you go into PubMed and google genistein, arrhythmia and cancer there is some really eye opening stuff particularly with genistein and cancer where a lot or research is going on.

Dean


Genistein and Natto

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Genistein is a major bioactive isoflavone, abundant in some vegetables, that has proven to have beneficial cardiovascular effects in both animal and human studies (5).

Kv4.3 is responsible for the primary transient outward K+ current in the heart (30). This channel is an important repolarizing current that determines the amplitude and duration of action potential in the heart. Inhibition of transient outward K+ currents, which are mainly mediated by atrial and ventricular Kv4.3 in humans, may contribute to prolongation of action potential duration (8).

Consequently, Kv4.3 channels are a potential therapeutic target for antiarrhythmic drugs (41).

The inhibitory effect of genistein on Kv4.3 may, therefore, have antiarrhythmic activity that could explain, at least in part, its cardiovascular effects.

Plasma concentrations of genistein were relatively low and generally <40 nM in humans consuming diets devoid of soy, but were considerably higher in vegetarians (32).

However, the average plasma concentration of genistein in Japanese subjects consuming a traditional diet was 0.1–0.27 μM, and plasma genistein concentrations as high as 2.4 μM were measured (1, 15).


“The results obtained in this study demonstrate that hKir2.1 channels are down-regulated by protein tyrosine kinase inhibition, suggesting that epidermal growth factor receptor kinase participates in the modulation of human cardiac excitability.”


Genistein and Cancer

“Genistein and daidzein induce apoptosis of colon cancer cells by inhibiting the accumulation of lipid droplets.”

“One of the major isoflavones in soybean is genistein which can inhibit proliferation and induce apoptosis in cancer cells”

Thanks, Colindo and Dean, for this interesting thread.

I myself like natto, and it's available at my local Japanese grocery in organic, non-GMO, no MSG form (Megumi Natto).

My concern is that soybeans in general are reputed to suppress thyroid function. However, I read (I think on Dr. Mercola's website) that fermented soybeans--as in tempeh--doesn't have this negative effect. Perhaps the same is true of natto, which is of course similarly fermented by bacteria.

--Lance

Quote
Jackie

That said, if you are looking for the best brand/type of nattokinase enzyme offered in supplement form, then the Cardiokinase by Pure Prescriptions has the credentials... check the chart offered by Dr. Holsworth [www.cardiokinase.com]

The one I use has the "JNKA" symbol...... Jarrow Formulas, NattoMax 2000 FU, 100 mg, 90 Veggie Caps.

“JNKA Mark” is an accreditation mark that certifies that the product has met the standard set by JNKA. To label the JNKA Mark on the product, a member needs to submit the product to JNKA that determines if the product meets the standard. The accredited product can have the JNKA Mark with the statement explaining the accreditation.

Hi Colin -
Since you are eating natto food, I’m not sure if you actually need additional supplements of NK since natto food is known for its fibrinolytic effects. I don’t like to quote studies results using animals, but this one indicates there is fibrinolytic efficacy. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

There’s been an upgrade or change in the measurement of the fibrinolytic activity and/or efficacy of nattokinase products. Regardless of which product one uses, the vital issue is whether or not it is actually doing the job intended to break down fibrin and prevent adverse clotting.

As a matter of information and for those taking Nattokinase supplements….. previously, the nattokinase capsules were measured in Fibrinolytic Units or FU’s… but later on the testing and measurement of the fibrinolytic activity was upgraded to International Units… or IUs.

Note these two clips from the Cardiokinase website.

Why is measuring activity in IUs (international units) better than FUs (fibrin units)?
The old test used to measure fibrinolytic activity, FU, was not able to correctly identify true nattokinase and was thus subject to false positive readings. Therefore, subpar products were showing fibrinolytic activity when in fact they had none. The new test, IU, is a more precise test that confirms the identity of the nattokinase and more accurately measures activity.

2. Accurate determination of fibrinolytic activity in vitro, sensitivity

The previous standardization of nattokinase identified activity in fibrinolytic degradation units (FUs). Unfortunately, the test does not validate whether the enzyme is in fact, nattokinase. Any proteolytic enzyme (bromelain, papain, fungal enzymes) tested using this test would erroneously report fibrinolytic activity or the ability to degrade cross-linked fibrin. Many companies manufactured, produced and falsely identified their bulk and/or finished retail products as “nattokinase” based upon a false identification of FUs activity. Can you imagine a physician prescribing insulin that was not truly insulin or the units of the insulin were incorrect? Many patients’ lives depend upon securing a valid form of nattokinase and accurate determination of its activity because they do not have a pharmaceutical drug such as an anti-coagulant that they can tolerate and/or is effective in the prevention of their condition of inadvertent blood formation.

In addition, the substrate utilized in the previously standardization for determining the activity was not soluble so activity determinations were inaccurate and not reproducible.

Source:
[www.cardiokinase.com]
[www.cardiokinase.com]


(All that said, however, the original form of nattokinase measured in the FU activity worked well to lyse the clot in my LAA after a long bout of AF and then cardioversion…. captured on a heart scan shortly after the ECV at 103 days after my first ablation in 2003.) This experience certainly helped bolster my confidence in the efficacy of nattokinase's ability to lyse clots.

Best to you,
Jackie

Hi Jackie,

Is this the ongoing major clinical trial for nattokinase that you have mentioned previously or is there another one?

[clinicaltrials.gov]

Dean

Hi Jackie,

I eat natto every 2nd day and get 1600 FU's of nattokinase from 40gms of natto, I need 4000 FU's per day, so the need to supplement.

The JNKA Mark is issued by Japan NattoKinase Association and it's their aim to standardize nattokinase supplements.
I see a lot of nattokinase supplements sold by iherb which don't have this mark. In fact very few sold by iherb have it. I don't know about Amazon's supplements, but expect the same.
[j-nattokinase.org]

Standard Criteria
1. The product contains Bacillus natto that is traditionally used for food and medicine.
2. The number of Bacillus natto in the product is 2.5×108 /day.
3. The safety of Bacillus natto contained in the product is evidenced.

I had a fibrinogin test done 2 years ago and recently had another test taken, which showed my level has increased. I have booked another test for 6 months time and expect to see about a 10% reduction. This will tell me if nattokinase has worked or not.

Colin

Hi Colindo and Dean,

I currently have been taking Megumi Natto since September. I take a 3 ounce container every day. I also take Cardiokinase
everyday as well since I am currently not on any anti coagulant drugs. My A fib episodes still continue but I am still willing
to give it a chance.

From what I've been reading about magnesium, I think I might increase what I am currently taking now...… which is
magnesium citrate as well as magnesium glycinate. Anyone have any ideas on which form and how much to take?


Thanks

I take a teaspoon of this in a glass of water after dinner Garden of Life, Dr. Formulated, Whole Food Magnesium Powder, Orange, 7 oz (197.4 g) helps get better sleep.

I would strongly recommend you change from Cardiokinase to a NSK-SD product like Nutricology, NattoZyme, 100 mg, 60 Softgels

Cardiokinase may not be as good as first thought, we have more information coming.

Yes - Colin and I will be offering a separate post shortly about some discrepancies in Cardiokinase properties.
Stay tuned.

Jackie

Hi Jackie, Dean, Colin...

I'm getting confused as to the overall purpose of Natto; originally I understood that it actually reduces the chance of going into AF, due to anti-inflammatory action. After reading here, it seems prized for it's fibrinolytic properties. Does it work both ways?

(I get paroxysmal AF, and take xarelto as soon as I'm in an episode. Otherwise I take the bloodthinners about 2x/ week)

Ruby