Why ablate so soon?

Hello everyone,
I've been reading some of the comments and archived posts and learned that many of you experience perhaps only a few bouts of Afib episodes PER YEAR and went ahead with ablation. A few episodes PER YEAR ! I would gladly accept that any day, not that I welcome any episode at all, but I don't know what I'm missing here. I thought we need to do everything we can to control Afib naturally by supplements, diet, life style changes, etc. I think someone mentioned in one of the post, 3 episodes of Afib PER YEAR, is this really that bad to possibly do the heart structural remodeling and need ablation asap? It's been about a year that I have a pacemaker implanted, experience with Afib and I'm 48 years old. I don't know how many episodes I have already experienced, but definitely not a few. I'm currently not taking any meds and I'm trying my best with the supplements (The Strategy) and etc. And I've been happy so far going a couple weeks at a time without an episode and thinking I'm having Afib under control. Am I wrong here? I guess my question is that do I need to get an ablation soon even though I don't like the idea because I'm still trying to get over the pacemaker surgery financially and emotionally? Am I doing myself harm if I don't get the ablation soon? Yes, I'm somewhat confused. Thank you all for any response.

Duke

Duke:

Like everything other kind of problem, the sooner you nix it, the better. The paraxysmal state is the most effective time to ablate because the heart hasn't had time to remodel and degenerate into fibrosis. At least this is the lesson I've learned. I recently had my Natale ablation after 6 years of afib; So far, so good. I'm glad I did.

An absolute: Afib will progress. Nutrition helps to stave it off, but only an effective ablation can give you any kind of near cure.

Chris

Chris and Duke:

Not an absolute, I first got AF in 1996, I did over the years get more episodes of AF, I do take magnesium which probably helps but not until I started taking one tab. of propafenone at night before bedtime that my episodes lessened, I can now go without an episode of AF anywhere from one to 3 months, I can live with that.

I really don't believe all of these supplements that we are advised to take make that much difference except perhaps for magnesium. I firmly believe in eating a good diet, cooking from scratch, don't buy packaged and canned foods.

Most of the experts that post and tell you about all the supplements you need to take have had ablations, the only one that I know of that posts and has not had an ablation is George N. So, I would say no harm in trying to help yourself, but you may need to also try taking an anti-arrythmic drug. I had a heart echo done this past December, no stenosis, everything is quite similar to an echo that I had a number of years ago.

Liz

Thank you Chris & Liz for your response.

Liz: You mentioned that you first got AF in 1996. How often did you get the AF episodes as time goes on before you tried propafenone? What year thereafter you started the propafenone? And once you started the propafenone, did it immediately work? And now, you have no AF episodes at all from 1 to 3 months. And when you do get the AF episode now, how long do those episodes last? And last, what does stenosis mean?
Sorry for so many questions. Thanks again.

Chris: You mentioned you had AF for 6 years before the ablation. During those 6 years, did you use any supplements or "Strategy" protocol to try to control AF? Did your heart get any structural remodeling before the ablation due to 6 years of AF? And now after the ablation, do you still have to take any medications, supplements, or watch out for any triggers or can you just do whatever like life before AF? Thanks again.

Duke

Duke:

About 7 years ago I started getting AF about every 2 weeks, my EP recommended, since I am vagal, getting AF only at night time, to take one tab. (150mg.) before bed. I did so, and my AF started to lessen, as I recall yes the propafenone did start working right away. When I get an episode of AF it usually lasts from, 12 to 18 hours, it might resolve quicker if I would take additional propafenone. Sometimes I go for a month without an episode of AF, then I get one, usually in the spring and summer months I get less AF, so I can go maybe up to almost 3 months without an episode. I get more episodes in the winter months, there have been others that have posted saying the same thing.

Stenosis is a narrowing of the aortic valve, with the passage of time, wear and tear can cause aortic stenosis, the aortic valve can begin to degenerate causing calcium deposits to accumulate on the valve, these deposits infringe on the valvular opening, causing aortic stenosis (narrowing). This narrowing causes the heart to work harder in order to pump the blood, it can cause shortness of breath, chest pain, eventually it can lead to heart failure without treatment (valve replacement).

Of long time posters, Erling also has not had an ablation, PeggyM has not had an ablation.

Erling collaborating with Jackie, developed the Waller Water recipe for magnesium bicarbonate water.

William attributes his NSR to his no-carb raw pemmican diet along with supplemental iodine. I do have a friend, who is a WPW ablatee, not afibber (though WPW patients are prone to develop afib) who correlated her adrenergic bi- & tri-geminal PAC's at max physical output to her fasting blood sugar. As long as she ate very low carb (with a corresponding low fasting BS), the PAC's stayed away. When she adds carbs to the mix, the PAC's are nearly debilitating.

Peggy was the one who created what she called "The List." A way to mark posts for future retrieval of those who'd used means other than surgery to control their afib. Some used meds to a certain extent, but the use was generally minimal. She collected these stories in CR 61 <[www.afibbers.org]

My take is that supplements, and magnesium is highest on my list followed by taurine and potassium have the best chance of working if started when remodeling has been minimal. They are a less powerful approach than meds and the less they have to overcome, the better. For whatever reason, people seem to post less about this now than they did in the past. I'm not sure why.

I certainly know that my input of food and minerals can both positively and negatively effect my afib. Too much calcium makes me much more likely to have afib. Mag, pot. & taurine help keep me in remission. I had a 2 1/2 month episode very early in my afib "career." Subsequent to that I had 7 years of relative quiet with about 10 episodes total. I'd added in the supps and I used on-demand flecainide to convert any episode very quickly, thus minimizing remodeling. Two years ago, my control lapsed due to both divorce stress and increased calcium in my diet. It got to the point of having one episode a night every night for a week. I started taking flec before bed and turned this around. I then started titrating down from from 300 mg flec. After a week or so, I added in a couple of tablespoons of organic ginger spice powder before bed and was able to titrate down to 0 mg flec over about a month. With just the ginger, I was having about an episode a month. Then I figured out the calcium connection, reduced my consumption and haven't had an episode in 11 months. When I was having nightly episodes, I was ready to head to Dr. Natale or Bordeaux. Once I turned it around, I had no reason to. If my infrequent episodes become frequent again, I would not wait to have an ablation.

George

Its a balance Duke, that each has to discover for themselves to some degree. And the answer will be different for many at different times in their progression of life with this condition.

I don't see any rush to early ablation being suggested here. What most of us support in communicating and answering questions for newcomers here, is them adopting first and foremost a concerted and dedicated effort, not just a half hearted attempt, at improving diet and food quality while insuring any heart quietening nutrients are repleted as much as possible, that are so often in short supply in afibbers and in those who need to take cardiac drugs.

This is the first and primary step in the overall approach so many of us have found to be so effective, but at the same time we urge everyone with AFIB to pair up with the best quality EP they can to help guide their care from the medical end of things and, when needed, they can try, as most do at some point, the various AAR drugs and occasionally .. every now and then ... but not too often ... you hear stories like Liz's where the person does well on one or another of those drugs for many years and more or less controls their AFIB for a good long while mainly with drugs and some good eating.

Or better yet, with good eating mostly and little to no drugs if you are one of the lucky ones and match the right blend of less severe AFIB, perhaps some favorable family genetics, and preferably and early start at more conservative protocols as George noted.

But I can tell you too that nearly every EP out there will tell.. if they are being honest with you .. that the long term history of AAR drugs working well indefinitely is very poor. Liz's story of sailing along for years on propafenone is an exception and not the rule by any means, Im sorry to say. Liz does seem to have more episodes than some might be comfortable with as an average but this is where individual choice comes in and just how symptomatic it really is compared to how reticent or fearful one might be to undergo and ablation, will go a long what toward shaping each persons feeling on when they are ready or not to consider and ablation .. of if they ever will be.

Most of us wont get anywhere near that kind of long term return out of AAR drugs, even with a good diet. But it's always worth a try to start first with the Strategy and the dietary recommendations we share here, and certainly most of us have at least tried one and usually several AAR drugs along the way too before turning to ablation.

However, the growing general consensus of all that we know now from 16 some odd years of AFIB ablation history, is that it's wise not to procrastinate too long with conservative path in the face of ongoing breakthroughs of arrhythmia as the underlying remodeling does take a toll in most people at some point. Each person will define for themselves what seems like 'too much', but even though it can be pretty well controlled for a long time, that doesn't at all mean that structural remodeling isn't going on, and much of that will not show up on a standard TTE echo test.

The key thing is being fully open and informed about all the tools at our disposal and understand how and when to use each one, in turn, as they seem the next best option in each person's experience.

With ablations done by elite level EPs having progressed as much as they have in recent years, it makes good sense that when, and if, you cant get good enough results with, first the dietary/nutrient methods and/or with cardiac drugs, then by all means don't beat around the bush as much as we all used to do during the more dark ages of ablation history.

Right now we are in the stage where while great progress in ablations have been made, it's still true only with the comparatively lessor number of higher volume EPs for the most part. Certainly, there are some occasional exceptions where talented operators with still not a ton of experience are doing very good work. Nevertheless, it's still very much a buyer beware market out there and the lion's share of unwanted complications come from the larger group of less experienced ablationists.

Hopefully, in the coming years that will start to level out some and we will get a larger pool of quality EPs doing consistently exceptional work to confidently choose from, but we are not there yet. In the meantime, be very picky and discriminate in making your choice when it comes to ablations and your odds of sailing though with both good results and very low risks is high.

The wise approach, Duke, is to realize the goal is not avoiding an ablation at all cost, the goal is buying as much reliable NSR time in our lives as we possible can by whatever and any methods and procedures each and everyone of us can bring to bare to achieve that for ourselves.

If we get too dogmatic about it being only the ablation way, only the natural and dietary way or only the drug way, we risk shackling ourselves tying one hand behind our backs based on some ideology or belief that is ultimately not in our own best interest. Look clearly at all the pros and cons of each approach and stay open to making the best choice and best use of each of them in your life at the right time. That's the best overall approach for a life time for the broadest array of afibbers in my view Duke.

Best wishes on getting all this under control Duke, you really can do this!
Shannon



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2014 06:53AM by Shannon.

I've had afib for over 3 years now. The first year was awful, events almost daily. The cardio guy suggested an abalation and a pacemaker. I found this site and started the strategy I slowing started feeling better and the events lessened. After about a year of that
I got togather with my PCP and worked out a program, finding my triggers and meds that worked for me. The only two times in the last
two years that I had an event was when I had a steroid shot in my shoulder. Then when I had a radiated stress test. Both times I self
converted.. That was over a year ago. I know I am lucky and I thank God for giving me this time in NSR.
I am taking carvedilol and warfarin.

Thank you all for your comments.

Dee: When I first got Afib, I had no idea what it was and I got sold into having the pacemaker. I should have started the Strategy like you, but did not know about this site or any site for that matter. Anyway, what's done is done and I'm stuck with the pacemaker. Questions for you: You mentioned your events lessened when you tried Strategy. How often were you getting the episodes at that time? And then, when you worked out a "program" with your PCP, how and what did find out about your triggers and why did you decide on taking meds when it appears that you really have it under control? I mean, is it the meds that help it under control now or did you have it under control before the meds? Sorry for many questions.

I'm prescribed to take Flecainide also, but I'm not taking it. And right now, I'm trying to get AF under control with supplements and Strategy. I'm getting an episode from time to time, may be a few days to a couple weeks if I'm lucky. I haven't been able to go months without an episode like many of you. I will gladly accept that any day. That's why I'm so surprised to hear some of the folks only experienced a few episodes PER YEAR and headed to ablation. It makes me think that I might just give up and sign up for ablation. My EP also one time mentioned that I might consider taking blood thinner in the near future as well which I'm not thrilled about. I'm taking so much supplements as it is right now and I hate to add more stuffs to take. It seems like I'm taking some kind of a pill every hour (I spread out my supplements through out the day). I even have my iphone set up the alarm every hour to take them. Sorry, I'm in a way venting now. And everywhere I go, I have these plastic meds containers in my pocket. Sometimes I'm just tired of remembering everything. Anyway, I appreciate more suggestions and comments. Thank you all.

Duke

I believe that AF is like a lot of ailments, some people have it harder than others---some cancers are more benign, others more virulent. Some people no matter what they do AF keeps rearing its ugly head. As I recall Peggy (George mentions the name) did not have a lot of episodes and could terminate them by going up stairs, that doesn't work for most of us. A lot of people on "the list" no longer post here so we don't know if they are AF free, or had an ablation.

I recall one poster (Tom) that had only a few episodes a year but the only way he could terminate them was to go the hospital and get shocked back into NSR, he also had to pay out of pocket, so in his case an ablation is understandable, he no longer posts and is fine. Another poster that posted years ago was PC, he was a Pathologist, he tried everything, different drugs etc., he eventually had an ablation and is living happily in Hawaii.

Duke, you can only try, however, before taking a large amounts of supplements that you may not need, you should see where your electrolytes are (have your doctor run blood work) if your potassium is ok, taking more potassium can cause heart palps. Dee said she takes drugs in addition to what she is doing, are they anti-arrhythmic drugs?

I wish you luck
Liz

Duke:

Yes, from the advice of this board, I tried all the nutirional protocols. I used the recomended magnesium, taurine, low sodium, and potasium glucinate regimen. It would give me periods of freedom from afib, sometimes as much as 3 months, but the beast always returned.
Which is why I had the best EP ablate my heart, which happened last March 17 by Dr. Natale. My heart is steady and I just had my 4 week follow up check up and all is well. I will still continue my nutritional regimen, however, because even though my heart is ablated properly, those triggers are still there.

The only drug I take for afib is cardvedilol . Before that I was on Dilitizem and had palpatations on that. The Cardvedilol is a Beta Blocker..
In the beginning I was on Digoxon and a regular Beta Blocker. I had events almost everyday. Then I started the strategy and the events
slowly began getting further apart. I changed meds to Dilitizem and the BB as a PIP and that worked for awhile. I had events maybe
every 3-4 months. After changing to Cardvedilol I have been in NSR for over a year. It did take a while for the supplements to build up.
And I am on Warfarin as I had 3 clots over 2 years ago. I very foolishly did not take aspirin or anything for clots. [life threatening]

As for the food and drink triggers they are something you will have to figure out for yourself. Take your time and figure out what you need to
do for yourself. Don't let a Dr. rush you into anything. Afib is unpleasant but bearable. Most of the time.

My Doc is aware of the supplements I take, he is into natural things if at all possible. He closely monitors what I take.

Best of luck to you. Dee

Duke - Whether you go for ablation sooner rather than later becomes a personal decision based on the severity of your events and how debilitating or disruptive they are for you along with how you can manage to function in your job, home life etc. Many people just can’t take a ‘time out’ with every Afib event so for them, sooner is more practical.

That said, the ablation advice offered here has always been to understand fully what’s involved in the ablation procedure and to select an EP from the elite or top-tier EPs that we mention frequently. If one is not in your area, then definitely consider traveling to receive the care. If you go to a highly skilled EP, the chances of an adverse event or an unsuccessful outcome are minimized significantly.

However, fundamentally and most importantly, you must look to the cause of Afib which is typically tied to an intracellular deficiency of critically essential minerals or electrolytes that support proper electrical conduction in the heart. We go to great lengths here to talk about replenishing these to optimal levels. Often there is a genetic defect that allows for magnesium wasting. Magnesium deficiency allows fibrotic tissue to grow in the heart (cardiac fibrosis) and causes conduction interferences or the deficiency can just be from poor eating habits and lifestyle.

While supplements are often very useful and frequently required in those who are woefully depleted, the main focus should be on many other factors that cause or influence the deficiencies in the first place… starting with food intake and habits which include:

1. Food selections that fail to supply the required nutrients – ie, mostly packaged, processed foods (and not whole fresh) – with an over-abundance of sodium and low potassium, low magnesium and other key nutrients such as iodine, selenium, zinc and essential amino acids and B vitamins etc.

2. Food choices that deliver excitotoxic chemicals such as pesticides, MSG or other additives or chemicals that stimulate Afib such as ‘diet’ sugar replacements, diet sodas or a high sugar/high carb diet, sulfites in wine and food, or high sodium content foods

3. Lifestyle habits that deplete nutrients, over-exercise, 24/7 stress, drugs and alcohol etc

4. Environmental interferences that either use up minerals or block by competition; over-exposure to EMFs, pesticides and other excitotoxins ..a few from a very long list of potentials

5. Medication interferences that use up critical electrolytes

6. Underlying health issues that contribute to arrhythmias such a silent inflammation, thyroid, adrenal, hormonal, infections, insulin resistance, sleep apnea, infections including periodontal disease and much more

7. Digestive issues including intestinal dysbiosis, H.pylori infection, Candida overgrowth, lack of adequate stomach acid to ensure proper digestion and metabolism of food nutrients

8. Hydration issues – inadequate intake of pure water or exposure to chemically-treated, fluoridated water

9. Acidic tissue pH. Attention to alkalinity is vital for overall health as acidity supports disease…especially cancer.

10. You can have the genetic tendency for wasting magnesium or interference with various metabolic cycles that influence the arrhythmia, but there again, if you know afib is in your heritage, then taking steps to prevent or reverse the gene expression of the flaw goes a long way toward preventing afib becoming chronic or persistent. That’s true with all gene flaws. Treatment today is preventive…not just sitting back to wait for the inevitable to happen.

It’s important to investigate or assess each area and correct the defects or deficiencies so that you have the very best chance of having a successful ablation outcome if that’s the route you choose. Either way, it’s a win/win.

So the bottom line consideration is that Afib is the warning sign or signal that something is out of balance your body…(our Canary in the Coal Mine)…most likely diet, lifestyle and environment. You can have an ablation and that may manage the Afib either permanently or temporarily, but the big issue is learning what caused it to happen in the first place. If that isn’t corrected, you’ll likely have a manifestation later on in another area that could be much more serious or inconvenient than an arrhythmia.

I wish you well with whatever decision you make.

My final comment is a quote from one of my favorite functional medicine physicians who often reminds his audiences that:

….. “It is estimated that 70-90 percent of deaths in the U.S. are not genetic but are modifiable through diet, exercise and the reduction of environmental toxin exposure. This stands in the face of traditional medical education which teaches treatment of disease through drugs and surgery rather than a comprehensive individualized analysis of each individuals unique case. Traditional physicians are not trained or qualified to implement nutrition, diet, exercise and other lifestyle changes to patients' treatment plans, leaving little hope for healing chronic disease.”

Nikolas R. Hedberg, D.C., D.A.B.C.I. is Board Certified Internist by the American Board of Chiropractic Internists (only 200 chiropractors have achieved this designation).

Best to you,
Jackie

Jackie, you know how to say what needs to be said. Well done.

Shannon, you are so right (no news there). I can only speak for Paroxsymal AF and then obviously just for me, but the ablation I had from Dr Barrett (then at MGH) 18 mths ago has led to a rock steady NSR.

Liz,
"the only one that I know of that posts and has not had an ablation is George N."

What am i, a potted plant? And anybody who wants to contact at least 50 people who have also not gotten ablated but are not having afib any more can go to Conference Room Proceedings number [whatever], i forget the number but you can find it by scanning down the list of topics. I will go look it up and then post it here if George does not beat me to it. All those people are posters here, how else would i have gotten their posts to include them in The List? TTYL. [Talk To You Later].

PeggyM

Duke, I'm curious why your doctor put in a pacemaker? I don't really understand, but I thought a pacemaker basically "set" your heart rate and adjusted it to remain the same whether exercising, stress, etc., so I would think that would prevent an "irregular heartbeat" which is what I understand afib to be (although in varying scenarios).

That's just my question. I would say that at your age you are smart to make the eating/supplements changes and see what happens, since you can go two weeks without an episode. If you are diligent, you may get good results.

I was talking to a doctor/friend last week (he's 71) who was taking a PIP (not sure what) for many years; now takes Flecainide I think morning and night, or at least once a day; however, after referring him to this site he started taking magnesium (and I don't think in very large doses) and he rarely has an episode. If he stops the magnesium, he gets an episode. He still takes the Flec.

I am almost 65 and have been in afib 24/7 (except one ekg in 2011) since January of 2010. I didn't discover this site for a year and a half ago, then started the Strategy, moving toward a more natural, alkaline diet, etc., but it doesn't seem to have made any difference for me after a year, so NOW I am planning on having an ablation this year. If I were younger I may give it a little longer, but with the prospect of structural remodeling caused by non-stop afib and not liking the idea of being on an anticoagulant for the rest of my life, for me it is time. By the way, even though I am in permanent afib, I never had a debilitating episode that sent me to the ER or anything close.

So basically, there is no one answer here; just a whole lot of information and experiential advice, which is priceless. I wish there was a way to "advertise" this site so that as soon as anyone was diagnosed with afib they could immediately start getting educated -- it is my experience with family physicians and cardiologists that they are comparatively clueless.

Louise

Peggy:

Are those 50 people that did not get an ablation still posting here, as far as I know they are not, enlighten me, you know for sure that they are still Afib free and did not get an ablation?

I also said, I got this from your postings here, that you do/did not get frequent AF episodes, so tell me, how many episodes do you get in a week, month, year.

As for being a "potted plant" you said it I didn't.

Liz

Louise:

Do you take an anti-arrthymatic drug for your AF? You have been in AF a long time, so an ablation is due, some people just have a harder time with AF no matter what they do.

I also have a pace maker, my heart rate dropped way too low when going back into NSR from AF, so my pacer is set at 50, that means that my heart rate won't drop below 50, if it does the pacemaker kicks in. My heart rate is usually in the 60s, so I only use the pacemaker if it should drop below 50, it can go up higher, nothing to stop it.

A pace maker would be set and hold at a certain rate only if our natural pace maker node would be ablated, that is very drastic and doubtful that many people have that done.

Liz



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2014 03:00AM by Elizabeth.

Louise,
Per my EP, I have bradycardiac problem (slow heart rate) and recommended pacemaker although my heart rate was in 50's. Like I said, I don't think I should have had the pacemaker, but I was "sold" into buying it. I agreed to buy it because I thought it would solve my problems of arrhythmia and Afib, but it doesn't. It only raises your heart rate if your heart beats slower than the set rate. It does NOT help to reduce your natural heart rate if it goes fast or if your heart rate is irregular. Although, it does have some algorithms that supposed to help if you're in Afib, but it doesn't work. My episodes still come when they want and there's absolutely nothing the pacemaker can do about it. That's why I'm frustrated for having it.
And now, I think I have the gut problem which gives a lot of gas that make me belch a lot. This is also frustrating because I think this belching and digestive problems lead me to having the Afib episodes. I'm not sure. This Tuesday I will have an upper endoscopy done and I hope to find out what kind of problem I may have.

Duke

"Are those 50 people that did not get an ablation still posting here, as far as I know they are not, enlighten me, you know for sure that they are still Afib free and did not get an ablation?"

Since nobody at that time had the time and/or was willing to put in this effort, nobody emailed all those people and tabulated the results. If you are willing to take on that responsibility, please feel free. All these people posted here so as to help others do likewise, so they will not resent hearing from you.

"I also said, I got this from your postings here, that you do/did not get frequent AF episodes, so tell me, how many episodes do you get in a week, month, year."

Since you ask, i get maybe 3-4 episodes a year. Until recently i self converted all episodes, but last November i had cardioversion for the first time ever. I was a little scared about this procedure but found it completely painless and un-alarming. I was anesthetized with propofol and awakened to sweet NSR. It was the bronchial infection that put me into afib. Once that was vanquished by azithromycin, no more afib episodes since then. I attribute this low number of episodes to the regular intake of magnesium glycinate to bowel tolerance for me, which is different for each separate individual, and of potassium gluconate in drinking water., usually 3 teaspoons a day, each in lots of water. I also take taurine, 2 grams a day, and a multivitamin and mineral capsule, Twinlab's One Daily without iron. I do not go into afib if i omit the taurine, but i generally feel better when taking taurine than when not taking it. Taurine acts as a mild anti-depressant with me.

PeggyM

p.s. the conf. rm. proc. session is Session 61.

PeggyM

Good for you Peggy,

Its always good to hear of those able to get good management of this thing with the Strategy alone. It does happen at times and hence why I so strongly urge people to give it their best effort. And even if its not enough to avoid a quality ablation to get the job really done securely for the long haul, it very often helps keep even the ablated and AFIB free heart more stable and silent underneath it all with general less ectopics etc has been my experience and that of many others when following good diet, good mineral repletion and often old trigger avoidance .. as much as possible.

But it is true too that many of us, certainly a significant majority that I have noticed, will usually require an expert ablation at some point to really put a lid on this thing and not settle for a modest but regular number of episodes a year, and at times an unknown number of silent episodes as well.

I hope it works well for you for many more years.

Cheers!
Shannon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2014 08:07PM by Shannon.

Hi Peggy,

Good to hear from you!

Glad your afib continues to not be a huge factor in your life!

George

Shannon,

For whatever reason, 10 years ago, there seemed to be more people trying to keep their afib at bay without ablation. They were also innovating various approaches. Don't know why that has changed. This innovation was fertile ground for me to mine when I was trying to come up with my approach.

George

Hi George,

I think it has changed to include ablations more readily for several reasons, firstly the major increase in ablation knowledge and success rates among the top-tier ablationists has certainly inspired much greater confidence than 10 years ago in both the overall safety and efficacy of an expert ablation when making a good choice for ablationist and center.

Secondly, while important strides have been made for quite a few people in controlling AFIB mostly with diet and supplements, its still relatively less common for the kind of success that would put a halt to structural remodeling to truly take place long term.

It does happen, but its not as common and in quite a few of those cases it requires and demands an seriously dedicated mind-set and commitment long-term that many people just are not wired to follow through with. It can also be a social/family issue too, as in some cases the degree of both life style and eating changes some people need to make to get real control over their AFIB could wind up ending their marriage or significant relationship.

This can even happen with just a switch to gluten-free eating for example even with a true celiac patient. There are many facets to this, and for those that just need to dial in a little extra magnesium and potassium to gain excellent control, that is no problem. But when it winds up having to take over much of the person's life and focus ( or at least feels that way to the non-afibber in a relationship that really can be a tough pill to swallow for a significant other who does not have AFIB, even when they are trying their best to be a good trooper.

Thirdly, there are just a whole lot of us, like myself, who in-spite of total dedication to trying to whip the beast nutritionally had to finally realize I (we) needed more help to get ahead of the curve. My sense is that this catagory describes the majority of afibbers, at least eventually. Maybe if we find and herd people very early on in the process to a site like ours and convince them to fully invest in learning and adopting steps like The Strategy and revise their eating and lifestyles to a much more heart friendly approach to life, we could likely see a fair degree more long term success stories from going it the natural route alone.

But I think there will always be a fair number who find the nutrients and dietary changes will remain a valuable adjunct to their health and life as well as help to some degree with an overall calmer heart, but for whom it will still fall shy of really and truly controlling this entirely for the long haul.. At least at this stage of our knowledge.

Its also the issue, of how many variations of diet and supplemental protocols that might be required to quiet AFIB down for real for a large percentage of people. That part seems much more individual than ablation for example. even though there is a fair degree of variability in the kind of ablation different people need as well. There still seems to be a lot longer trial and error process with the supplemental process alone for many folks to find the peace and quiet they are looking for and I think many will not stick solely with those efforts alone. especially if their AFIB continues to increase over time in spite of dedicated efforts. And I have to agree with that feeling as well with what we now know about remodeling and the wisdom of not waiting too awfully long in the face of continued breakthrough episodes.

That part will remain an individual choice and will depend on each persons different sensibilities and value judgements as well, as it should.

Ten years ago, ablations were still quiet new, no irrigated catheters and a lot of uncertainty and more fear than there is now. So I think all of the above factors have led to the shift now, not so much away from supplemental and dietary measures of control, but more toward a more open and welcome attitude toward adding an ablation to the mix while continuing to use whatever nutritional support and dietary/stress reduction methods we can to keep in front of this train.

But its good that we continue to explore what is possible and look for new avenues to help get toward the core metabolic factors driving AFIB for sure. At some point, we may even be taking about advances like effective stem cell ablations with a very different process that everyone can embrace, but we aren't there yet.

Shannon

Hi Peggy… Thanks for chiming in again to keep in the forefront the message that many afibbers have successfully cured or substantially reversed their afib. Congratulations to you, too, for your long-standing record and once again…thanks for doing all that work to pull together "The List."

Some former afibbers that I have corresponded with have, indeed, cured their afib with the dietary, lifestyle changes and nutritional interventions we recommend here. Others have managed it down to one ripple in a year or two occasionally. Another not only cured his afib but arrested a devastating health condition early on during the process. I hear from them occasionally to report they are still doing well and are most grateful for the assistance they received. Many no longer post or even read the forum as they’ve resumed their lives once again. Most always, they mention they would never, ever be without their specific core nutrients.

One is an MD who never did post here but contacted me for help. He completely cured his afib …probably 10 years now, at least. We share emails on other holistic health news regularly.

Another, about whom you’ll be glad to learn is Erling, the first testimony on your List, who definitely cured his afib and who helped all of us so much to learn the important, core issues so we could progress as well. You’ll be happy to know that Erling is doing well and remains in full time NSR after his initial seven years of misery. He’s still in Portland, Oregon….. AND is now writing a book: “Curing Afib Naturally.”

Exciting times to think back on where we all were so many years ago and how far many have progressed.

I wish you a delightful Spring in Maine…. I’m sure you are (as I am), really looking forward to some great weather coming up soon. It’s been a loooong winter in NE Ohio.

Best to you,
Jackie

Shannon,

I'm sure you are correct.

I've always felt the nutritional/lifestyle approach had the best chance of working if applied as soon as possible after diagnosis. The more remodeling, both physical and electrical, higher the hill to climb and the lower the probability of success. I'm a big fan of early application of PIP meds like Flec to terminate whatever episodes there are as soon as possible and minimize the time out of NSR.

Given my early 2 1/2 month episode and my later year of poor control due to stress and excess calcium, I'm very amazed I'm back to stellar control. Of course, even during my year of poor control, I terminated the episodes quickly, mostly within 1-2 hours with PIP Flec.

George

George:

You said you had to take flec. in order to terminate your AF,I am in AF right now heart rate is very slow., I have been on this board for a number of years and have seen many posts of people trying all the many supplements etc. that are posted here to try and control their AF, a lot give up and have an ablation. If all of the protocol works so well why then did Jackie, PC, Shannon and Hans get an ablation, I will say that eating a healthy diet and getting the right supplements will improve our health, but for many it is not a cure for their AF.

Peggy said that she gets or got 3 or 4 AF episodes a year, I do recall that she didn't get the many episodes that many posters here got, so if Peggy still gets 2 or 3 episodes a year I would not call that a cure, I would say to Peggy that is great but it doesn't equate to many here.

I don't think many here eat any more healthful foods than I do, I have taken vitamins probably a lot longer than most here, actually since my early twenties, I am now in my late seventies. I am very healthy otherwise expect for the AF episodes (oh yes, the canary in the coal mine), I have some ancestors that had AF, which unlike some here, I believe has set me up for AF. I believe that Hans had a survey whereby a lot of those surveyed had AF in their families.

It is certainly worth a try to eat more healthy, take some supplements and see what happens, but to make us believe that by doing all of this will cure our AF and it doesn't, could give one a sense of failure. There are some known causes of AF, so if those are taken care of then AF can be held in check---some causes are high blood pressure, thyroid problems, probably gastric issues and genetic.

I would think we all learn more if there is a give and take and questioning without trying to squash the person questioning. In my early days on this board there was a lot of different ideas back and forth, I liked it better.

Liz

Liz,

I agree that many very motivated, bright and talented people tried very hard using lifestyle/supplements and meds did not succeed and ended up getting an ablation. I don't think they failed or that people should feel bad or guilty if this does not work.

Yes, I use Flec to terminate any episodes I have. This is because 2 months into my afib career, I had a 2 1/2 month episode that I terminated with on-demand flec. It was at the termination of this episode that I started my experiment with supplements. I also decided I would terminate any future episodes with flec so as to minimize time in afib and any remodeling. I hoped not to repeat the 2 1/2 month episode.

I point out that some people have succeeded to give others the idea that it is possible, but there are many variables beyond a person's control that can determine the outcome. There is a lot of luck involved.

I came here nearly 10 years ago. For whatever reason, I applied myself totally to the problem. Early on, I expected a reasonable solution from cardiologists. When I got to #3, an EP, he said, "you are doing well out of rhythm, why don't you stay there?" I replied I did not want to accept that outcome and proposed a "Plan B" of electrolyte supplements and PIP flec for the times the supplements did not work. At the time, I did not have a clear idea for a supplement plan. He agreed, but gave no suggestions for the supplements. He did prescribe the flec. Once I converted from the 2 1/2 month episode, I went on a two pronged approach to the problem. First, I read every anecdotal approach in almost all the past comments on 4 or more years of this board. I also studied the medical literature for any studies that might give a clue about what might be effective. The second prong was to be a hardware/software/drug approach. I started work on a monitor to try to predict episodes with a 10 minute lead time. My idea was to use this lead time to take a med to ward off the episode. This was a very difficult problem. I worked on software algorithms to parse the ECG time series looking for clues of an impending episode. As it turned out, I never was compelled to complete the second approach, because the first worked.

The work on monitoring led me to create an approach to try to evaluate and optimize my supplement intake. I would monitor my heart during an hour or so of daily meditation and count PAC's and PVC's. I used these counts (less being better) to adjust my intake of supplements, both in quantity and type.

Later, I started monitoring serum glucose. I realized my glucose response to meals was suboptimal and changed my diet. Much later I surmised I'd been prone to nighttime hypoglycemia. This may have been one of the triggers of my 3 AM episodes, however I'm confident that chronic fitness predisposed me to afib in the first place.

The result of this program is that after the 2 1/2 month episode, I started the above and had to use flec about 10 times in 7 years to terminate episodes. A result I was very pleased with. Then I had divorce stress and inadvertently added a very large amount of calcium to my diet. This led to a year of poor control of afib and many more episodes. I thought at one point I'd be joining the ablation crowd. I was able to mitigate the problem for a while with preemptive flec and then with powdered ginger spice. I used the ginger to wean off the flec in about a month. I also used these to give myself time to try to solve my poorer control, while minimizing remodeling. A review of my notes and of the early posts here finally led me to consider excess calcium as a bad actor. That was about a year ago. I've only had one afib episode since (11 months ago) and that was a delayed vagal trigger to a long day of very hard mountaineering. This is a known trigger for me and one I generally try to avoid.

So is my afib "cured?" No, but it is currently controlled to my satisfaction. My heart is very stable at this point (0-2 PAC's/hour). I'm sure the all day max exercise could still be a trigger, but I usually avoid it, though I remain highly active.

Statistically, using these tools may be a long shot, but certainly one I think is wholeheartedly worth pursuing.

Regards,

George

Hey Liz – Because of my several previous very negative and traumatic experiences with unnecessary surgical procedures due to my own naiveté about trusting the medical establishment to look after my best interests, I was totally gun-shy and vowed never, ever to have another invasive procedure including an ablation. I had the ablation procedure only because my insurance was at risk of being severely changed or cancelled.

You may recall from the Calming My Heart report that, after 8 years of relative success ‘managing’ my AF with flecainide, I suddenly had increasing frequency of events that were very long lasting… some for 24 and 27 hours with only 4 hours in NSR and then back in AF again for many days at a time. I decided it was time to throw in the towel and made the date with Dr. Natale.

That gave me six months to give it one last try to reverse the trend… and after a couple of months with a lot of heroics, I was able to stop the AF completely and then wean off flecaninide. I managed to get down to 50 mg daily (from 300 mg previous) but didn’t have enough time to wean off the last bit…so stayed in NSR on only 50 mg. The ablation date arrived so I went for it. I’m not sorry, but I’m also relatively sure (and knowing what I do now some 11+ years later) that, if I had delayed the date, I could have avoided it completely. So, it’s not as if I ran for ablation at my first opportunity.

From when I began the journey in 1995, I have learned a great deal more about my biophysics and biochemistry and the extreme importance of making sure all systems are both functional and optimized with required nutrients. And I have a much greater understanding of the importance of those core, essential nutrients that keep the heart in NSR and how, with time, we can become very depleted.

I totally agree with you that dietary intake of whole, fresh foods that eliminate the perils of chemicals added and processing changes lies at the core of disease conditions today – including AF. I also know that my success then and remains so now cannot be achieved strictly with a good dietary intake of nutritious food and that I must augment several core nutrients responsible for allowing my heart to maintain the energy (voltage) it needs to ensure NSR.

My Exatest results support that. While I’m at the low end of normal in the ranges, I need to supplement aggressively to maintain the levels my body requires for NSR stability which is in addition to a whole, fresh foods diet that is mostly organic. Now that I have had to deal with latent or chronic Lyme and Epstein Barr Virus activity, it’s even more of a challenge to keep those levels optimized.

The advent of junk food and empty calories is a disaster for the health of all populations exposed to it. People seem totally unaware of the detrimental impact their food choices and lifestyles make on their health and it’s been that way for decades. Year after year, we see the increasing incidence and prevalence of chronic, degenerative conditions including arrhythmias with rising healthcare costs. I am saddened by the misery people are heaping on themselves and families and yet they are seemingly clueless as to why it’s happening.

The most important service we all can do is help to educate and enlighten whenever we can. So, I agree with you that sharing more knowledge along those lines is critical for everyone whether or not they choose an ablation because ultimately, poor diet and lifestyle will catch up in one way or another.

Long ago, someone very wise said…. “Let your food be your medicine and medicine be your food…”… hmmmm was that the founding father of (natural) medicine, Hippocrates ancient Greek physician (460-377 BC)? Somewhere along the way, we forgot to listen.

“Primum non nocerum. (First do no harm)”
― Hippocrates

“There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance.”
― Hippocrates


And many other precious words of wisdom.

Jackie