Can we safely say alcohol is at least an 80% trigger

Wow a big response to my wine / 2 minute episode........I have some history of alcohol = afib, I have proved it (for me anyway)..a couple of years ago I had 2 big scotch and waters on an empty stomach and 2 hours later bam.....then a cardioversion...a friend at the gym, 55 had an ablation 7 years ago, he drinks all the time, not a single episode....I was hoping for that too......I just want a little once or twice a week.......Wed nite I had a large glass of 14.5 alcohol red wine......12 hours later bang.........yeah I feel like an idiot, 117,600 dollar ablation 8/21 and 15 weeks later I screw it up......but......how awesome that it lasted 2 minutes! that is NOT my history......a real wakeup call though

Here, Shannon has become an educated voice.....he several times told me "don't temp it with alcohol"!.......uh well.........I did'nt....I', a 59 year old 15 year old..........

I want so bad to be done with afib.........has everyone here that has had an ablation avoided all alcohol? the old study of one I guess.....but I think we can safely say that alcohol is the top rated trigger......my other two are / were MSG and chocolate.......and yes I am back to nibbling on the darkest of chocolate!

Tom P

I don't drink, but had a small slice of homemade rum cake at our office party yesterday. Was that the reason I was in afib from 6pm-midnight yesterday? Who knows.
Nancy

Hi Tom, very glad you're doing well !

You can get a pretty good idea about any specific substance (alcohol in this case) being a "trigger" by googling it along with the words "inhibits Na,K-ATPase" (aka sodium/potassium pump). Anything that inhibits these multitudinous pumps lowers cells' voltage (and many other NSR disrupting things, such as increased excitatory IC calcium) thus encouraging arrhythmia (for crude example think of a flashlight with low voltage not working very well). Googling alcohol inhibits Na,K-ATPase brings up many informative articles, including
Alcohol Excites Cerebellar Golgi Cells by Inhibiting the Na+/K+ ATPase [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Since alcohol inhibits the Na/K pumps in brain cells, you can be quite sure alcohol does the same in heart muscle cells.

Do a google with acetylcholine inhibits Na,K-ATPase to get a handle on "vagal" AF.

Be well !

Erling, who (though not in any way recommending) has enjoyed a frequent beer or two (or three) or glass of wine (or more) ever since quelling his AF many years ago, mostly because his cells' voltage is kept high.

(for more on this see CR 72 and its Interim summary beginning on page 50 [www.afibbers.org] )

By the way, Tom; is your drinking/ bathing/ swimming water fluoridated? Fluoride is readily taken up internally through the skin. Fluoride potentially unravels/ makes dysfunctional any/ all body proteins (100,000 plus) by disrupting their hydrogen bonds. All enzymes are proteins, including of course the Na/K-ATPase (Na/K pump). For hydrogen bond see [en.wikipedia.org]

Using fluoride inhibits Na/K pumps brings up millions of googles including this:

J Biol Chem. 1992 Aug 25.[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
Inhibition of the Na,K-ATPase by fluoride parallels with its inhibition of the sarcoplasmic reticulum CaATPase.
Murphy AJ, Hoover JC.
Department of Biochemistry, School of Dentistry, University of the Pacific, San Francisco, California 94115.

Tom,

Well, here's the really bad news. Sex is a trigger for some people (ie George's recent episodes); so you better cut that out.

You just saw Erling's post, fluoridated water is verboten, so you need to sell that nice place in the City and buy a country place with a well. Hope your teeth don't rot out.

Chocolate, MSG are bad; no chinese takeout allowed.

Then we have the supplements- not enough K can cause afib; however too much K can also cause afib. Same for Mag.

Taurine helps some people but others say it's a trigger.

Prior to my surgery, a cold drink of (non-fluoridated) water triggered afib. What am supposed to do, get de-hydrated?

I don't think you can put a percentage on it, but the majority of cardiologists and EPs with tell you that alcohol can trigger afib (the french EP's say it's OK to have a really GOOD wine though). I think that moderation in anything is a key, and in your case it may be that red wine is your stone cold trigger- that means you need to avoid it (perhaps a shot of tequila won't have the same effect?)(To be serious, it may be that an occasional light beer doesn't cause it; you are controlling the amount and type of alcohol.)

BTW, does this 2 minute run mean your ablation failed? IMHO it means it succeeded. No cardioversion required.


And on the sex thing, don't tell your wife or she'll use it as an excuse...

One of these days I am coming down to your shop and I won't bring anything stronger than a light beer.

EB

Hi Tom

I will say that alcohol is a trigger, but then so are a lot of other things. I truly believe that for me it's the Vagal nerve, something going on there. Eating. rubbing my chest hard, turning or twisting the wrong way, bending over, all will/can trigger AFib.
I have had 'Lone A Fib' going on 9 years, started once every 6 months, then every 2 months the...well you know the story.
Currently I am at once every 2-3 weeks. My episodes are very scarey, incredibly fast heart rate, arm and jaw pain, nausea, dizzy (to the point of fainting) and needing to pee every 10 minutes. What I have noticed lately is that I am very confused after an event so real worry about blood supply to the brain during an attack.

I would love to sit and drink a bottle of wine with a friend, as I used to, and talk about the world going by, but no more. I would be in AF before you could blink.

I am a 72 yr old female, still working full time.
I am very frustrated with the medical side of this 'scourge' which ruins so many people lives. Here in Australia it's very undermanaged, with my Dr telling me to get on with it and not really interested in engaging in any chat about the problem.

I have tried all of the pills and none of them do anything at all except make me sick. I have read and re read anything and everything about AF and I am not convinced they are on the right track.
It used to be a complaint of old age...why then now do I read about the thousands upon thousands of younger people with it.
The impact it has had on my life is staggering, I was looking forward to retirement and travel and getting fitter etc etc and now I am afraid to do anything too demanding as 'bang' I'm into AF.

I don't think the medical profession has any idea how limiting and frightening this AF is. I know more about this than the majority of Doctors I talk to. Some of the advice I have had would make your hair stand on end and it worries me that those amongst us who dont educate themselves about AF may take the advice seriously.

Any way Tom, keep trying all the tricks,anything thats helps in some way is a blessing. I take Mag, Calc, ViteC, ViteE, Taurine, 1 Multi Vite and 12.5mg of Metorprolol( terrible drug, but just takes the edge off) each day.

Take Care



I

Joy:

Would you be able to get an ablation? It sounds like you are a perfect candidate for one, it would be tough going through what you are enduring and having to work besides. You said you cannot take any meds for your AF, I am vagal and I do take one tab. of propafenone at night before bedtime and it has helped me, perhaps if you took it and went to bed you might be able to tolerate the med.

Liz

Erling, funny thing.....I just the other day began a toothpaste with flouride!! I always use non.........EB I got a week's worth of laughs from your post! hysterical

Really, it's all insane everyone triggered or supposedly triggered by so many different evils.........yes there are triggers but they do not always cause I had wine last Sat and nothing, then Wed nite and Thurs AM afib ? I have absolutely taken more risks with diet and so firth since my ablation.......my collage age son during thanksgiving said "dad loosen up you had your ablation, what was the point of the ablation if you can't enjoy yourself" I bought into that a bit

Joy - get an ablation! you are a prime candidate ....so long as your health is strong enough

Oh, EB.....this is where afib for me has never occurred:

1.) during sex
2.) working out
3,) on vacation

so...............maybe I need to pay attention to this

Tom

@Tom: Your replys are spot on. It seems the more I read through this site's comments, and I've been doing it for the last 4 years with an occasional comment of my own, I can't help but be excruciatingly confused by the amount of tweaks, triggers, and faux pas an affiber can make to send him or her into chest thumping hell. But there is one trigger that is for me an absolute and that is red wine and too much booze.
Suffice it to say, the only near cure for the afib beast is a brilliant EP who knows how to joy stick a catheter inside a trembling heart.

Do more of those three and you are good!

As my favorite character says "stay thirsty my friend." In your case that may be literal.

Take care-

EB

I just finished my 4th beer.......Hey it's Friday night give me a break!

Alcohol is not a trigger for a lot of us.

If it is a trigger before an ablation, then very likely, it will be after. That goes for any trigger, if the ablation isn't 100% effective.

Oh, and not all alcohol is created equal, so red wine may be troublesome, but not white, or gin may be a trigger, but not vodka, and so on.

McHale:

lisa
__________________________

So much of medicine is looking solely down the wrong end of the gun barrel, and that is really a pity for all of us---Shannon

Lisa,

You are absolutely correct. A survey (LAFS-III) found that alcohol is a trigger for 33% of vagal afibbers, 36% of mixed afibbers and 19% of adrenergic afibbers. And yes, a pre-ablation trigger may remain a trigger post-ablation, particularly if the ablation is not entirely successful.

Hans

that no sex dont tell your wife remark was V. funny

My doc didn't mix words when we discussed alcohol as it relates to afib. He flatly told me three years ago, no alcohol. I don't miss it and have come to realize there are more health and other benefits related to being a non-drinker.

EB,

Your very funny insights hit home with me. I have lived like a choir boy for the last 4 years, and at times I have become very stressed out if had something other than greens or boiled fish; now stress has been/ is my biggest trigger, so walking arounrd all the time thinking you better not do this or that may not be the best idea ..........

Steve

Thanks Steve,

Yes, this disease will stress you out and stress is probably one of the biggest causes. If you have a procedure and still have to tiptoe around scared to death, then what have you accomplished?

That does not mean that you can go abuse alcohol, eat bagfuls of chocolate, etc. to tempt the dragon.

Moderation and balance are pretty good keys to success in most things. May we all be able to live our lives in a happy, afib-free way. Seems to be what most folks on this board are looking for-

EB

Hi Tom - Consider that you are very early in your recovery stage post-ablation. You may be able to indulge with small amounts of alcohol after considerably more time has passed, but don’t ignore the warning that alcohol is toxic to heart cells. As Shannon has posted, EPs such as Dr. Natale certainly witness plenty of evidence supporting the adverse effects of alcohol on the heart. And of course, we all can go into the biochemistry behind that and we should all be able to recite how it reduces heart energy which is really the heart of the matter.

Coupled with that, several of the items you mentioned caught my attention.

Drinking on an empty stomach may be a significant trigger whereas a glass (small) of wine half-way through a meal may not be…the fat content in a meal helps slow down alcohol absorption.

Over the years many afibbers have reported that red wine, especially, is an AF trigger. My first AF event was triggered by too much red wine. You can find sulfite-free organic wine.

Lifestyle modifications, no matter how unappealing they are to us, are undoubtedly lifesaving. I’ve always said that Afib is our ‘canary in the coal mine’ which gives us an early heads-up that something is awry in our body….silent deficiencies, toxicities, and functional defects are not at all uncommon and can often result in worse conditions than AF... including stroke, MI or worse; sudden death. With Afib, we have this unwelcome but early wakeup call that should prompt us to assess seriously everything involved in our own personal Lifestyle. Leave no stone unturned and don’t succumb to the denial factor just because the indications interfere with a favorite food, habit etc.

The fluoride factor IS a very big deal.

The fluoride response/comment by Erling brings up facts that relate to heart issues and arrhythmia as well as other issues relating to thyroid and heart function plus cardiovascular diseases. Since fluoride competes with and actually dominates over iodine, that’s an important consideration depending on how much fluoride is introduced and equally important, how deficient you are in iodine stores. You can be evaluated for iodine status.

In the book, Iodine – Bringing Back the Universal Medicine by Marc A. Sircus, Ac OMD, there are many references to heart complications as a result of iodine deficiency. A few quotes of many particularly worth noting….

“Whole body sufficiency of iodine/iodide results in optimal cardiac functions,” writes Dr. Guy Abraham.8 There is an epidemic of cardiac arrhythmias and atrial fibrillation in this country and Dr. Abraham is convinced that the medical iodine phobia has a great deal to do with this phenomenon. Adequate stores of iodine are necessary for a smooth heartbeat.9

Dr. Bruce. West says, “Iodine supplementation may be the missing link in a good percentage of heart arrhythmia cases, especially atrial fibrillation. The body needs adequate stores of iodine for the heart to beat smoothly. After close to a year now of using Iodine Fulfillment Therapy, I can attest to this fact. Most of the stubborn cases of cardiac arrhythmias and atrial fibrillation that we were unable to completely correct with our cardiac protocols have now been resolved with adequate supplies of iodine added to the protocol.”11

"Thyroid hormone is an important regulator of cardiac function and cardiovascular hemodynamics. Triiodothyronine, (T(3)), the physiologically active form of thyroid hormone, binds to nuclear receptor proteins and mediates the expression of several important cardiac genes, inducing transcription of the positively regulated genes including alpha-myosin heavy chain (MHC) and the sarcoplasmic reticulum calcium ATPase.” 5

Dr. Michael Donaldson says, “Iodine stabilizes the heart rhythm, lowers serum cholesterol, lowers blood pressure, and is known to make the blood thinner as well, judging by longer clotting times seen by clinicians. Iodine is not only good for the cardiovascular system, it is vital. Sufficient iodine is needed for a stable rhythmic heart beat. Iodine, directly or indirectly, can normalize serum cholesterol levels and normalize blood pressure. Iodine attaches to insulin receptors and improves glucose metabolism, which is good news for people with diabetes. Iodine and iodine-rich foods have long been used as a treatment for hypertension and cardiovascular disease; yet, modern randomized studies examining the effects of iodine on cardiovascular disease have not been carried out.”3

Adequate iodine is necessary for proper thyroid function. The heart is a target organ for thyroid hormones. Marked changes occur in cardiac function in patients with hypo- or hyperthyroidism.

"Thyroid hormone is an important regulator of cardiac function and cardiovascular hemodynamics. Triiodothyronine, (T(3)), the physiologically active form of thyroid hormone, binds to nuclear receptor proteins and mediates the expression of several important cardiac genes, inducing transcription of the positively regulated genes including alpha-myosin heavy chain (MHC) and the sarcoplasmic reticulum calcium ATPase.” 5

Further on the Fluoride comment:
You needn’t lose sleep about causing problems with your teeth if you don’t use a fluoridated toothpaste or drink fluoridated water…. because fluoride has no influence on preventing cavities.

Fluoride doesn’t work for preventing tooth decay. Studies bear out this finding.
Further, the FDA has never approved the use of fluoride for tooth decay.

However, water fluoridation has been foisted on the unsuspecting, uninformed public who think it’s a health benefit which is far from true… so go back to using your fluoride-free toothpaste for overall health. The damaging effects of fluoride has been discussed here previously… perhaps prior to when you joined us. But, definitely, you should be concerned that fluoride competes with Iodine…which we all need.

For new readers who may not be aware of the detrimental influence of fluoride from all sources, refer to this post offered July, 2007, which is notes from a presentation by David Kennedy, DDS (bio in the article) who is a well-known, world-wide, for his expert knowledge on both mercury and fluoride toxicity.

Hydrate Safely-- What’s in Your Water?
[www.afibbers.org]

Dr. Mercola (today) reports on the current status of the anti-fluoridation movement in Portland, OR, and gives a very complete summary of the adverse health conditions caused by fluoride. Must read for everyone. [articles.mercola.com]

Lastly, Tom… be sure that you keep up with your intake of essential electrolytes… this is no time to coast or think they aren’t important now that you’re ablated.

Best to you,
Jackie

I reduced AF to 2 episodes in 6 months using Iodine supplementation, or think I did. But then 6 mths later it came back with a vengeance. So I got ablated and so far that's worked out.

Jackie,

Can you cite confirmed cases of LAF caused by fluoridation?

Seems doubtful to me.

EB

EB,

Very funny! Interestingly enough, alcohol is not a trigger for me. A couple of bottles of wine will insure that sex isn't a trigger, too!!!

Fortunately my current routine of prophylactic flec use before bed works even 8 or 9 hours later to keep post a post orgasm vagal response from being a trigger. Because my partner is amorous every time I see her, and I'm fortunate to see her very frequently, it has inhibited my downward titration of flec below 100 mg pre-bed as I like the insurance. In this trigger, I can feel PAC's before afib. I guess I could really titrate the flec lower and if I feel the PAC's just jump up and run around the room to offset the vagal response and then tell her we need to cuddle standing up. I'm sure it would add to my aura...

George

George,

Back in my afib days my wife put me in it a time or two; it was worth it every time. (I was also using flec PIP and I usually converted in less than an hour).

Don't trust anybody who wouldn't trade a little afib for some kanoodling...

EB

It's absolutely a trigger for me. It helps me to relax as well though, so I've got into a bit of a bad habit where I can kid myself that I'm drinking to stave it off. Definitely don't mind giving up the booze if I can stay fib free though. I can still smoke weed right? (For any law enforcement officers reading, I'M KIDDING!)