Nightmares and flutter

Hi folks,

Last night I awoke from a series of bad dreams (5am) the last of which involved a group of us running in vain trying to find shelter form a VAST tidal wave over a mile high the top of which was just starting to obscure the sun - was SO graphic and still in my head. Anyway, I awoke to my ticker beating at around 180 bpm very regular. Lasted for about 6-8 seconds, then NSR. Now, I've had this happen on a few occasions over the last year, but it hasn't degenerated into AF. Although bad dreams (which I DON'T remember) OR apnea (which I also experience occasionally) may well have helped in precipitating the early am AF episodes which I have had during the last 4 years.

Has anyone else experienced similar brief episodes of flutter (or runs of ectopics) in the early am as a result of sleep apnea or bad/panicky dreams??

Also, I've noticed that 2 of my early am AF episodes have started with two 8-12 second episodes of flutter sandwiching a short bout of AF (a few secs) followed by a full blown AF episode?? Anyone else noticed that one or two short bouts of flutter kick off their AF episodes??

Regards,

Mike F.

Mike,
I have had the same experience myself. The very rapid heartrate was what has actually woke me up each time. I don't have apnea though.

blessings,
MLM

Mike - yes, yes.

I've experience very disturbing dreams from which I've had to force myself to wake up. My heart was always racing and a number of times it went right into afib. This is that cortisol issue - high in the early morning hours when it should be lowering. The fright issue kicks in adrenaline and that in turn brings on the higher heart rate.

Why the dreams? I have no clue... but I do know that I haven't had those type dreams in a long while. I sleep extremely well... I think that is the magnesium effect and the adrenal support supplements - holy basil and ashwaganda.

I emphathize. It's a very disturbing thing to have happen.

Regards, Jackie

Yes, nightmares have preceeded some of my afib attacks.

I still maintain that stress and anxiety are the substrata of afib and that much of it originates from emotionally unsupported. undernourished childhood.

Carol

Mike

I believe you experimented with GABA powder- do you still take it.?
Did your sleep patterns or dreams change after supplementation.

Stay chilled.

Chris H

Hi everbody:
Have you ever considered which came first, the dream or the arrhythmia? I know that when I was in a coma, with congestive heart failure and pulmonary edema, the whole time I dreamed that I was drowning. Terrible, frightening vivid nightmares. When I woke up and was hallucinating I kept telling people that I had drown. I think at first I thought that I had died and was in some kind of afterlife. My family members have since told me that when I was unconscious and the doctors and staff thought that I couldn't hear, they kept saying things like "she's up to here in fluid", or "we've got to get some fluid off" or "her lungs are full of water". Perhaps I could hear them, and then coupled with the ventillator and just the feeling in general, that somehow I felt and thought that I WAS drowning. So I'm sure the symptoms caused the dream. Something I've often wondered about.

Pam

Carol,

Boy oh boy, your phrase "emotionally unsupported. undernourished childhood" describes my own perfectly........ So many of my bad dreams have for many years centred upon me and my father trying to kill each other. It sure wasn't any fun being constantly beaten up on both physically and psychologically (as was my mother...... when she was there..... and before she ran out for good when I was 14 yrs old). I was ALWAYS told not to ever get my hopes up about EVER achieving success or happiness, and that my father was the only friend I'd ever have in this cruel world. I was a waste of space and would never ammount to half the man my father was. Hmmm.. Throw in puberty being delayed until age 17 with accompanying teasing at antiquated grammar school, and that's got much to do with my adult emergence into the world with ZERO self-confidence and ZERO ability to love myself or others. Just an anxious confused and angry mess. But I'm getting there now, albeit slowly. Both my GP and psychotherapist are CONVINCED that my palpitations (and diagnosed GERD, GAD, OCD, and depression) are, in the absence of any reasonably readily detectable (by quite comprehensive hospital testing) disease, a direct consequence of my childhood. Hope you didn't mind the short rant - it's just that Carol's well-worded phrase got me going...........

Thansk for all the responses thus far. Interesting about the adrenal support supplements Jackie - I'm sure mine became exhausted when I was a child - always lived in fear. In the fact the anticipatory fear was worse in many ways than the events themselves.

Gregg,

No I have never tried GABA....... maybe I should look into it though...... thanks for that.

Pam,

Point taken, although - and as I implied in my post above - I usually seem to wake up BEFORE the AF starts - i.e. just as my ticker is starting to get revved up with ectopics and runs of the same. On the other hand, I know from experience - as I'm sure do many others - that wanting a pee will make me dream of.... having a pee........ and I wake up SHARPISH in fear that I may have bought into the dream!! Never have yet though thankfully. It is accordingly not unreasonable to conclude that it can work either way round as regards which comes first, the dream or the palps - although my own experience in this regard suggests that the dreams precede the palps.

Cheers,

Mike F.

I once dreamed that I had atrial flutter and I was very scared, trying to get home. But then I woke up and it took me about 30 seconds before I realized that my heart was actually racing. I found that very weird.

Mike

I have had that same dream many times in my past. You are in fear of being swamped by everything that is going on in your life at the moment. At least this is what I learnt. I used to have another one about earthquakes - trying to run away and the earth renting open and me narrowly avoiding falling into the abyss again and again.

Try to relax. Are you eating a lot of free glutamate - I posted something about night terrors and MSG a day or so back.

After I gave up free glutamate my dreams took on a different vein. A recurring one I had at this time was climbing a long wooden bridge type thing. But it had lots of big bits missing and I would have to swing out and up to get to the next bit. It was a sheer drop to the bottom. It was going to the top of something (in dreams this means your life). I got there. The ones I have had since have been flying dreams. These are sensational. What freedom and you really experience that swimming through the air sensation.

I don';t know for sure, but I do believe that your dreams are from the subconcious and by listening to them you can over come anything. Go with it and don't let things overwhelm you. I once went on a course for Project Management It was called How to Eat an Elephant. It can be overwhelming. But what you do is cut it all up into bite sized chunks and deal with it one bit at a time. Put that into daily use. Only deal with one thing at a time and don;'t move onto the next thing until it is completed. Are you still in counselling? I found long term counselling to hold me back. It kept the wounds open, it didn't heal them.

Hope that helps

Fran

Carol - that's an interesting theory and one to which I can relate. I always thought I had a normal childhood until not so long ago when I really began assessing how long I had been stressed. I think I must have been born stressed....and it continues even now. I'm sure much of it is rooted in repressed memories and emotional traumas from childhood on.

I can relate well to "emotionally unsupported - undernourished childhood" even though I thought everyone's life was like mine. Now I know and now I can make a connection to a lifetime of stress and afib.

Working hard to undo the emotional damage done...making alot of progress.

Thanks for your input.

Mike - you are a true survivor. I hope you find a solution to your damaged adrenals. I'm sure it is at the root of much of your symptoms.

Best regards to all. Jackie

Fran,

Amazing to read your analysis of my and your dreams. I've also frequently had ones where I'm jumping from pinnacle to pinnacle (tall pointy ones) to get from one side to the other........ or climbing at height from one obstacle to another......... or crossing a building at high level (via ledges and beams etc.) whilst the building is falling down behind me. The tidal wave dream is frequent for me: last night's was particular harrowing and frighteningly vivid and real. Strangely enough, I used to get the flying dreams when I was a child - I guess I REALLY wanted to fly away so I did it in my sleep. And no, I really try to avoid MSG - I eat NO processed foods whatsoever. The free glutamate released by cooking, I'll admit I have rather more of a problem with. I like to gently casserole (110 C) my game and vegetables for 3-5 hours until REAL tender! BTW, does salmon and mackerel in tins have any hidden MSG in it to your knowledge - despite listing only fish, water, and salt??

BTW, I've had three sessions of councilling over the last 6 years - none of which did any good whatsoever. But the psychotherapy (as opposed to councilling) I've had for the past year (and which I anticipate having for several more years) is, I feel, REALLY doing me some good. Particularly as regards identifying the self-destructive and disrespectful behaviour/s which I pile on myself and others as a result of carrying my father's manyfold and complex mental problems by virtue of them being imprinted/intrajected onto/into me whilst I was an impressionable child. Mike as a person doesn't carry his own sh*t, he carries his father's............. Also, I find as an adult I am extremely defensive and analytical - not in touch with my feelings which are painfully buried away somewhere deep down. Couldn't risk having feelings out in the open - just left you vulnerable. So you end up as a cold impassionate analytical adult with complex defence mechanisms (which continue to prevent you getting the nurturing love you so desperately need); a critical parent which on one hand DRIVES you to achieve perfection in all that you do, whilst simultaneously being always disappointed with the (typically excellent) results you achieve; and finally a frightened child which has out of necessity (to simply survive) disassociated itself from the world and which is locked inside beneath one's concious in a state of constant fear still believing the war to be on when it isn't. This, and much more, I am learning to unravel and deal with with my excellent psychotherapist. Yes it hurts, but I believe I will have to perhaps get a little worse before I can REALLY start to get better. Understanding the problem is, I feel, a terrific - albeit sometimes disconcerting - start.

Jackie,

Thanks for the kind words of support. I will look into the adrenal support substances you mentioned in your previous post. BTW, I too will be thinking of you and rooting for you come your ablation date in a couple of weeks or so.

Cheers,

MIke F.

Michael ,

It takes courage to admit that one needs help and it takes strength and courage to do something about it. How very human you are. (What is the quote "Why be perfect, when you can be human?")

Can you hear me cheering for you?

I really relate to what you say about the tendency to approach life analytically as a defense against opening ourselves up to the vulnerability of our emotions. You said it so well.

I would say that you are making great progress. I think that the wounds and scars will always be there to some extent (but very much lessened by psychotherapy) but by recognizing the fact that our ANS has been compromised (partially burned out) by early wounds and unrelenting childhood background stress (like background radiation?), we can learn to pace ourselves, avoid further compromises to our sensitized nervous systems and we can learn to take better care of ourselves emotionally and physically.

Pam, your comments are right on, it seems to me. I have arrived at that same conclusion: You get a physical situation, and THEN you get a dream wrapped around it. Once I was trying to kick a snake off my ankle while my heart raced.... It seems clear to me that my heart was racing, for whatever reason, and my subconscious mind wrapped a scenario around it.
There is a similar situation with men's erotic dreams; the physical urgency is first, and then the dream... but that's another story. :-)
There are many good thoughts on this web site, along with the voodoo medicine.
--John McCafferty, Fellow A-fibber

On many occasions I woke up from a nightmare and found I was in AFIB. I was taking Toprol XL during this period. My EP tells me that a side effect of Toprol XL is often nightmares.

Newman

Curiosity killed the cat, etc. Will you tell me what you find here that you consider voodoo medicine? I do not ask in order to criticize you, but because i want to know your views on the matter.
Peggy Merrill

John,

I took Pam's point also - as I pointed out wrt dreaming of having a pee whilst asleep and NEEDING to go! It's just that my own bad dreams seem to precede plpitations which could lead to AF: if I wake up soon enough I seem to be getting preliminary ectopics, short runs of ectopics, or a short run of flutter, but wake up just in time to avoid AF. In fact, the 3 AF episodes I have awoken into (of the total of 4 that I've had in the last 4 yrs) were not, so far as I was aware at the time, preceded by bad/any dreams.

Your comment re 'voodoo medicine' also caught my attention. Can you please clarify?

Mike F.

Most times dreams are there for good reason. They all have a message to give. Like some of you say you've had nightmares but look into that so called night mare it is trying to tell you that you need to change things in your life. Your letting things get you all down on top of you. You have to make new changes in your lives and stop worrying bout the small necessities.

I''ve often interpreted dreams for people. I have been writing my own dreams down for several years and find that they all have a message of some kind apart from certain ones which i would think you would not understand unless you are Psychic... think most of you are...... you must look into yourself and find out whats going wrong in your lives and stop letting this problem get hold of you.

Love Light and Wisdom

Babs

I was thinking about this, and thought I'd throw out some thoughts, as they pertain to me.

I had a good childhood, and don't typically have nightmares.
I had low tryptophan on two tests, but my thoughts here are could melatonin be having problems changing back to serotonin in the early AM?
I had elevated AM cortisol while not taking any meds, and during my long bout of flutter (1.5mths).
While taking beta blockers, that is when I would awake out of rhythm in the AM, and betas block adrenalin. I did experience some strange dreams during this time, which is unusual for me.
Two nights ago, my wife took 5-HTP (breakdown product of tryptophan), and felt drugged and very tired when she awoke the next morning. She went back to bed, and had horrible dreams, that she could not breathe.
Is cortisol necessary for the conversion of melatonin to serotonin?
Due to the fight or flight response of adrenalin, could you be using up what little stores you have to fight off the bad effects of your dreams, leaving little for heart to do its job?
This all sounds a bit like adrenal exhaustion to me, as I think about it.

Just some questions and thoughts,
Richard

Hi... I shouldn't have used an inflammatory word like "voodoo;, sorry. It's just that I am very nervous about what appears to be a lot of unscientific and possibly even dangerous experimentation. I'm not a scientist or doctor, but,
1) "post hoc ergo propter hoc"... The fact that one's A-fib gets better after taking, say, a major dose of Chemical X, whether natural or unnatural, doesn't mean that that chemical improved things. Could be coincidence, could be many things.
2) Taking mega-doses of various chemicals could have deleterious long-term effects on OTHER parts of one's body and electro-chemical system.
3) Extreme diets are also suspect in that there too we are lacking information on what could happen in the long run.
Ex.: My mother-in-law claimed that Dr. Dong's Miracle Diet (the actual title!) greatly improved her arthritis of the knee joints. But I think it's more likely that her knees hurt a lot less because Dr. Dong almost starved her, and she lost a lot of weight, taking it off the knees!
That's all.. just wondering... I sympathize, having the same feelings of hope in this baffling matter.
John McCafferty

John:
Well, the proof's in the pudding. If it makes you feel better over a sustained period of time, it's probably working. Indigenous peoples for thousands of years didn't have empirical evidence when taking herbs and other substances.

I usually sleep pretty good. I only have nightmares when I'm too hot. I HAVE to have fresh air in the room and have the temp down at least to 68 Fahrenheit or below to sleep well.

Count me in the for the miserable childhood set. I too went analytical as a way to cope, thinking subconsciously that if I could just figure out WHY people were being assholes, then I might figure out how to survive their BS. Then I also learned how to be hypervigilant, figuring that if I could see it coming I could figure out a way to avoid it.

Well, that and a quarter got me on the bus!

Now I just work on letting go, letting go, letting go, and realizing that other people's BS is about them, not about me. It's hard work, takes a long time, but the rewards are worth it. Why, I just got handed a 32-page newspaper to put together the other day when the top had been 24 pages in the past. Did I stress? Hell, no! I said, "Sure, no problem. If I run into trouble, I can always ask for help." It got done and everything went fine.

Like you, I too learned the emotional storm within me was most often worse than the actual events or projected outcomes I was fearing. It's a major step to realize that, and a major step to be able to stop the projecting/obsessing before it gets started. I'm still working on it.

k

John - I agree that taking chemicals is not a good thing.

I definitely think that taking naturally occuring minerals or vitamins that the body needs to function - and which are shown to be deficient - only makes good sense... like adding a quart of oil to your car when the level is down. If you don't put in oil, but use another subsitute like alcohol, the engine doesn't function as it once did.

I also agree with Fran that the best way to get vitamins and minerals is through wholesome food. Sometimes, though, one simply cannot consume enough to make up the deficiency.

Remember, also - all the pharmaceutical drugs prescribed are "chemicals." A very few are naturally-occuring substances.

I have always maintained that my heart does not have a flecanide deficiency. Rather it is an imbalance most likely of enzymes and minerals that allow the electrical system to mal-function.

The problem arises when no substantial research is done to uncover the nutritional deficiencies that allow the condition to occur. Most drugs merely mask the symptoms of the condition; and do little to correct the problem. Drugs (chemicals) have side effects; nutritional supplements when used properly, do not.

There are a few exceptions, though. While mis-used, antibiotics have proven their effectiveness in fighting infection when a body's own natural killer defenses are substandard.

I loved the example of your mother-in-law... see natural therapies do work...nothing wrong with losing weight.

While I'm not a doctor or a scientist, I do have a health science background and good knowledge of how the human body works. Even though I'm retired, I continue to take courses in health science education just to keep up with trends and watch the growing importance of functional medicine come to the forefront.

Healthy is wealthy. Jackie

Richard,

I'm fairly sure that it is serotonin which is converted to melatonin as opposed to vice versa. Some preliminary reading on adrenal exhaustion has got me most interested. Many individuals posting to health bulleting boards with AE complain of ectopics and palpitations (for up to 2 hrs in duration........................ undiagnosed AF?). As regards symptomology, I certainly appear to fit the bill, and given my stressfull childhood and anxious adulthood, I am going to look into some appropriate testing. BTW, I emailed Doc Wilson re. hair testing, but have had no reply yet as to whether he'll do it for someone in the UK.

Mike F.

Kestra
I could so relate to your post. You have put into words what I try to do for my own sanity. I am still too analytical and still have problems with trying to avoid problems.

Mike F
Since the first day you joined this BB I could relate to your emotional issues. And you have the exact same type of dreams I had. So I believe that your answers are not too far from my own. I think the canned fish should be OK, but as I don't eat them am not too sure. I know that sulphites are often used in the processing of fish as an antioxidant and they do not need to be mentioned if the amounts are low. For this very reason I can't drink cartons of fresh orange, apple etc. So squeeze my own.

I think what got me passed this stage was being a mother. Suddenly you are responsible for other lives. The one thing I did not want to do was to let history repeat itself. Its been hard - but worth it.

John
Just wondering what you call an extreme diet? Do you consider mine extreme?

Fran

Kestra

Thankyou so much for your recipe on stress reduction. I just had a bad week. It all started three years ago when the new foreman showed up at work. Last week I finally lost it and told him to f off. Since that time I have been in three meetings with managers and supervisors all very stressfull. I thought I was getting a chance to tell my side of the story but it soon became apparent that because of my outburst I had lost all credibility and the more I said the deeper the hole I was digging for myself. Managment will allways back there own. This morning I decided to pull in my horns and apologized , Phoned the number for counselling that they had strongly suggested I do.

I really do need to learn how to handle the bs and this might be the silver lining in my dark cloud. Shortly after capitulating I went NSR. My Afib had lasted for 7 days straight. You don't have to convince me that stress plays a major role in AF. Some people will go a long way to get free counselling

oops.. hit post by mistake. I was going to put a "warning, venting taking place" somwhere at the start but o well. no matter how hard you try you can't take it back.

Counselliing may be just what I need. I need to stop being a butthead butting heads with a butthead.

Peace to all

Adrian v49

Adrian:
The interesting thing is that this woman where I work has not changed. Even though she doesn't gun for me directly anymore because I changed my job to step out of her path, she's still conniving and selfish and neurotic. The difference for me is I don't let her get to me anymore (well, most of the time!). I can't do anything about her - I can only control how I respond to her. And, if it ever comes to a situation where she does decide to gun for me again and I can't keep from getting hooked into it, I'll find another job. No one - certainly not her - is worth bad health!

Mike,

Yes, serotonin does produce melatonin, but in the wee hours, melatonin, either diminishes and serotonin takes over, or melatonin goes back to serotonin, in order for the biological clock to tell us, it's time to wake up. I'm not clear on exactly how that works. You'd think I would have that one down, but I never read about that.

Richard