With many thanks to Barry and Mark for lifting a more than half-century fog-bank that had obscured the truth about vitamin C ('Must see video', below). The basic facts are in this 1972 book, here on-line: 'The Healing Factor: Vitamin C Against Disease', by Irwin Stone, Ph.D, with forewords by Nobel Prize-winners Dr. Linus Pauling and Dr. Albert Szent-Gyorgvi [www.vitamincfoundation.org]

For up-to-date information: [www.vitamincfoundation.org]

See also publications of Dr. Robert Cathcart, MD: [www.orthomed.com]
also [www.orthomed.com]

A 1978 article by Dr. Pauling: ‘Robert Fulton Cathcart III, MD – An Orthomolecular Physician’ [www.orthomed.com]

Erling

I have Dr Stone's book sitting in my bookcase, and I have referred to it multiple times since the 70s. Thank you, Erling, for giving us a refresher on this important topic.

Louise

Louise, it's wonderful that you have the book!

I'm fascinated by this, and shocked about how the loss of this impeccable, life saving science came about - an awful story of power vs. truth.

About the author, Irwin Stone, Ph.D: [en.wikipedia.org] (26 patents in industrial chemistry!)

Wishing you well!

Erling

Erling - I just posted my thanks to you, Barry and Mark in the original Must See Video Thread... great information. Thanks for taking the time to locate and post all this good information. Jackie

Erling,

Many thanks for the 'heads up' on Vit C. I'm in and, as such, am planning to add 3g daily to my regimen. Does 3g (1g TID) sound a sensible quantity for a 6' 4 " tall 220lb guy? Is there any particular type of Vitamin C that I should be looking to buy and use??

Kind regards,

Mike

Mike, vit. C should, IMHO, be taken to bowel tolerance every 4 hrs thruout the day. This is because whatever amount of vitamin C you take will pass out of your body [except for whatever the amounts are that are used for ongoing repair and growth purposes] entirely within 4 hrs of ingestion.

Establish the bowel tolerance amount by taking 1 gram every hour on the hour for 4 hrs. Record the dose and the time you took it. if one of those doses results in diarrhea, stop there. Wait 4 hrs without any vit. C. when the 4 hrs has gone by, take the next lower dose than the one that gave you the trots. If the urge hit you after the 4th hourly dose, then 4 hrs after that dose and the trip to the john, you should take 3 grams of vit. C, and 3 more every 4 hrs after that. Break for sleep and start again in the morning with, in this case, 3 grams every 4 hrs as your bowel tolerance dose.

If, of course, you had to stop after 3 grams in the initial test period, then use 2 grams vit. C as your bowel tolerance amount.

If the 4th dose did not result in diarrhea, wait 4 hrs without any vit. C and then take 5 grams in one dose. If no trots, then take 6 grams the next hourly dose, then 7 grams the next, and so on until you find the point where you are taking as much as you can take without overloading the gut. This point is different for different people, and also it may vary upward if the body is badly in need of this vital repair material, like when you have a cold or some other infection or injury. Retest if you feel ill, and give the body all it can accept of this vital nutrient. If you find your bowel tolerance dose to be very, very high, consider that your body may be engaged in some kind of ongoing struggle with injury or infection. The bowel tolerance dose may drop as whatever-it-is heals.

PeggyM

Mike,

further to Peggy's post I would add that at times I have taken 10g of Vit C per day for weeks mainly in the powder form but two or three times day I had to use Vit C 1g tablets due to being on site. I am 5' 9" and a few ounces under 200lb, waist 34"/35".

I never reached bowel tolerance at these levels due to the 2 hours intervals between each dose.

Having taken high theraputical levels of oral Vit C religeously for over 4 years I am now down to a maintenance level of between 3 & 4 gramme total per day split in three doses - I dont measure the powder accurately but to be on the safe side I 'add one for the pot'.

Glad to have you onboard the Vit C ship as I find passing on the message very frustrating with very few believing a word even though you can see and touch the results with skin texture/moisture in the few that have taken up my suggestions and have stuck with programme without fail.

My logic is that if that you can see/touch the results on your skin then you don't need to be a rocket scientist to imagine what could be going on inside. No need whatsoever for double blind trials.

Shooting from the hip and considering your size I would say you will need to take at least 6 grammes of Vit C per day and for maybe up to one month to see any results- this is what I would do in your postion however you must do your own due diligence on this matter.

I doubt any change would be noticed on a 20 year old catwalk model no matter how much Vit C she took. I am definitely aiming my suggestions at the 50 plus group. After just saying that around four years ago on a vist back to my hometown in England and telling a family gathering about vitamin C I instigated a quick competion to prove the point. Very simply we compaired the skin on my upper arm with the skin on the upper arm of my 19 year old grandaughter who is a picture of health. After rolling up our sleeves I was declared the winner, how about that. Did anyone take any notice? not at all and they all roared hilariously when I showed them the 10 250gramme containers of Vit C (tablet form) I had just bought to take back to Hong Kong. I can fully understand the frustration that Dr Irwin Stone, Dr Klenner etc etc must have endured with the Medical Profession

My 11 year old daughter and 6 year old son take Vit C 500mg each every morning and night, my wife aged 39 takes 1gramme each morning and night and they all have beautiful skin, just like me, aged 61 ;-).
Pity it can,t do anything with my actual features though ;-(

I buy my Vit C from Han's iHerb connection, the brand is NOW FOODS and I get the 3lb container.

Barry

Peg and Barry,

Many thanks for the helpful replies (-:

Mike

I'm wondering if anyone who is on warfarin is supplementing with these high doses of vitamin C and what effect that might have on the efficacy of the warfarin. Although I can research this, I'd prefer to hear from someone on the board with actual experience.

Laura

Laura - it's not advisable when using warfarin to be on high-dose vitamin C.
[lpi.oregonstate.edu]

I'm glad you posted that Jackie I have been upping my C since the ablation so I appear to be at cross purpose here. I was getting sometimes 2000 mg per day from EmergenC before so I'll keep it at that level from now on.

Adrian

Jackie, thanks for posting the link. In your opinion, would taking 1 gram a day while on warfarin would be acceptable?

Laura

Hi Mike, thanks for the good question, well replied to already. From all the facts, dosing depends only upon what one wants to accomplish, with certain cautions, for instance as described by Jackie.

Isn’t it amazing that after more than a half century of accumulated evidence we still have to puzzle over the answer. It is almost unbelievable that medical professionals will show surprise worthy of a journal article, as if just having realized that vitamin C is a vital, potent antioxidant, therefor effective in limiting afib following cardiac surgery, and in enhancing NSR ‘hold’ following cardioversion. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

For information on dosing the Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University is surely reliable. A look at Faculty and Staff [lpi.oregonstate.edu] which links to the Micronutrient Information Center, which links to Vitamin C [lpi.oregonstate.edu], a very comprehensive article for the science and for recommended intake (the U.S. RDA for an adult male (non-smoker) is 90 mg/day). It leaves much room for alternative views. At the end there is a link to ‘The Difference Between Dr. Linus Pauling’s Recommendations and the Linus Pauling Institute’s Recommendation for Vitamin C Intake’ [lpi.oregonstate.edu] Excerpted here:

“Dr. Pauling, for whom the Linus Pauling Institute has great respect, based his own recommendations for vitamin C largely on theoretical arguments.. cross-species comparisons, evolutionary arguments, the concept of biochemical individuality, and the amount of vitamin C likely consumed in a raw plant food diet… Dr. Pauling suggested.. that the optimum daily intake may be about 2,000 milligrams of vitamin C.. Therefore, the Linus Pauling Institute's intake recommendation of at least 400 mg/day of vitamin C for generally healthy adults takes into account the currently available epidemiological, biochemical, and clinical evidence, while acknowledging the extremely low toxicity of vitamin C and the incomplete information regarding optimum intake.. the Linus Pauling Institute's recommendation is strictly directed towards prevention of disease in healthy individuals, not treatment of disease... individuals suffering from certain diseases may require substantially larger amounts of vitamin C to achieve optimum body levels or derive therapeutic benefits..."

For me, the many decades of accumulated anecdotal clinical data from highly credible physicians, showing amazing efficacy and safety of extremely high doses, takes precedence over any formal trials showing contrary results, quite possibly “spun” to satisfy the ‘powers that be’: [www.orthomed.com]

Highly recommended reading, a 1991 article in the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine by Robert Landwehr: 'The Origen of the 42-Year Stonewall of Vitamin C' [now a 61-year stonewall] [www.seanet.com]

You might want to take advantage of the many important writings by Robert F. Cathcart, MD (and others): [www.orthomed.com] such as: ‘Rationale for Use of Massive Doses of Ascorbate in Disease’ [www.orthomed.com]

Erling

Error:
Dr. Cathcart's 'Rationale for Use of Massive Doses of Ascorbate in Disease' is at [www.orthomed.com]

Laura - the only way you'll know is by monitoring your INR... after taking the vitamin C. They mention Prothrombin Time but most EPs and cardiologists use the INR measurement to determine dosing of the warfarin. At 1000 mg daily, most likely if you had some interference, your warfarin dosing would be increased somewhat but hopefully not a large amount. If a much higher dose, then I'd think that might offset the potential benefits of taking the C. Personally, if I were going to experiement, I'd start with only 500 mg a day as the body can only absorb 500 mg at a time anyway...the rest is flushed out. (just my opinion)

Jackie

From that link:

There is some evidence, though controversial, that vitamin C interacts with anticoagulant medications (blood thinners) like warfarin (Coumadin). Large doses of vitamin C may block the action of warfarin, requiring an increase in dose to maintain its effectiveness. Individuals on anticoagulants should limit their vitamin C intake to 1 gram/day and have their prothrombin time monitored by the clinician following their anticoagulant therapy. Because high doses of vitamin C have also been found to interfere with the interpretation of certain laboratory tests (e.g., serum bilirubin, serum creatinine, and the guaiac assay for occult blood), it is important to inform one's health care provider of any recent supplement use (119)

Thanks for your help, Jackie. I'll go with the 500 mg and see what happens with the INR. You're right--I'd prefer not to have the warfarin dose increased.

Laura

Erling/Jackie,
Given some of the comments above re warfarin and C, should I double up the nattokinase (from one 2000fu tab per day) whilst taking 3-5g of C per day??
Mike

Mike - Nattokinase does not function the way warfarin does. If you have active afib and are not on warfarin.... active meaning more than a couple times a year.... then the dosing for NK is at the very least, 4000 FU daily. If you have weekly or monthly AF, then you need the 3 doses of 2000 NK daily - every 8 hours.... to manage fibrinogen. You should know your fibrinogen level.

Taking vitamin C with NK should not cause any difficulties.

I'm surprised Isabelle hasn't jumped in here and talked about vitamin C and the hemochromatosis issue. If you have a problem with that and keeping ferritin in the low range, then you have to be careful with vitamin C dosing if you are able to use it at all....because C increases absorption of iron. I know at least two people with HC and they are told not to use vitamin C. So always know your ferritin level as well.

These are not routine tests. Typically, you have to request them. My FM MD does them automatically.

Jackie

Laura,

I do not claim anything but my own observations i.e. known 'facts'

The 'facts' very clearly are these.

For several reasons it took me nearly three months to get my INR scores for three concsecutive weeks to be in the range of 2 to 3 before the hospital in Hong Kong would do what turned out to be a successfull electrical cardioversion on me for Left Atrial Flutter- possibly the end result of a successful ablation of Atrial Fibrillation.

The INR results would continually range between say 1.5 to 3.5 throughout the three months but because I could not get three weekly consecutive results of between 2 & 3 they would not cardiovert me even when I said ( quite agreived ) I will lie on the floor now and just zap me I don't care, I was that far gone.

Bottom line, I was taking religeously around 6 Gramme Vit C and 10 grammme lysine per day throughout this period on the dot already recorded on Han's BB.

Like anyone else taking Warfarin we all know that the weekly results are random to say the least. The Vit C was not random it was measured.

To consider constant measured Vit C and Lysine to be the cause of INR fliuctiuations in my particular case is a straight forward figment of the imagination IMHO.

Barry

Laura - here's a link to a chart that indicates high doses of vitamin C intefere with INR results when on warfarin (meaning shorten the clotting time).

As I said previously, I doubt of small doses are going to bother you much.

[www.careinternet.net]

Jackie

Jackie,

further to you latest post on Vit C, could you quantify your statements as I have positively done mine i.e.

Drugs ????? that MAY shorten PT.

Vitamin C (large doses)

What I read is contarary to my actual findings.

Barry

Thanks, Barry and Jackie, for the additional thoughts and info. Taking rat poison can be a real challenge--seems like EVERYTHING affects its efficacy.

Laura

Jackie,

Thanks for the reminder about the C and iron absorption issue..... I'd forgotten about that one. My ferritin is always rather high at 270 or so, so I'm unfortunately going have to steer clear of the C supplements. I did try to go down the blood donor route to lower my ferritin, but the blood donor folks over here in the UK wouldn't take my blood because of my history of LAF. Maybe I shouldn't have been so honest in fronting up about having a history of LAF, but I do take a small daily dose of Flec and I felt that I had to tell them about that and why I took it.

A shame since I really was up for adding 3 -5 grams of C long term.

Mike

Can someone tell me the best form of vit. C to take? Thanks, Sue

Sue,

Jackie posted only the other day about some form of Vit C that may be superior to the standard stuff and you can find it mentioned in an earlier posting titled 'must see video'.
There is a part in the actual video where it shows some form of 'special' Vit C being used by the family during the guys convelesance, maybe the Vit C compound that Jackie as mentioned.

In my experience I have seen definite seeable, touchable results with NOW FOODs Vitamin C powder from from Hans's website connection with iHerb.

Barry

Error in above instruction: when starting second series of hourly doses, for people who did not get diarrhea from 4 grams within 4 hours:5 gram dose the first hour, them at the next hourly dose take one more gram, and one more gram only at each hourly interval, so that the dose for that 4 hr period is increased by one more gram each hour for 4 more hours. Again, if diarrhea results stop right there and consider the dose before the diarrhea-producing one to be your bowel tolerance dose.

Better health to you all.

PeggyM

Thank you Barry...........Sue

Hi Sue, and all -

This began with a reference to Robert Cathcart, MD. Here is a brief biography, his life and medical career:

Robert Cathcart III, MD
1932 - 2007
Hall of Fame 2008

"I have never seen a serious reaction to vitamin C supplements. Since 1969 I have taken over 2 tons of ascorbic acid myself. I have put over 20,000 patients on bowel tolerance doses of ascorbic acid without any serious problems, and with great benefit."

-Robert F. Cathcart, M.D.
Independent Vitamin Safety Review Panel Statement
=======

Robert Cathcart's observations on clinical use of ascorbic acid drew worldwide renown, along with the respect of Linus Pauling. A native of Texas, Bob came to Northern California as a child and spent most of his life in the Bay Area. He earned his medical degree from the University of California in San Francisco in 1961, then completed his internship and residency at Stanford Hospital. Bob was an instructor in orthopedic surgery at Stanford after his residency. The "Cathcart Prosthesis" has been implanted in over 100,000 hips.

Bob became interested in vitamin C when he read Linus Pauling's Vitamin C and the Common Cold, and he began using it for his own allergies and his patients' viral infections. He thought about a common side effect of high-dose [oral] ascorbate, namely diarrhea, in a new way. He observed that a person's tolerance for the vitamin increased considerably in the presence of viral illness, seemingly in proportion to the severity of the illness. A person who ordinarily develops diarrhea from, say, a 12-gram dose of ascorbate, might be able to tolerate upwards of 100 grams when ill with a cold or flu. Bob found that titration of vitamin C dosage to bowel tolerance permitted quicker resolution of an illness.

Bob treated tens of thousands of patients with vitamin C megadoses. He was a popular lecturer at medical meetings, where he freely shared his findings with his colleagues. However, he was not well published. Like Linus Pauling himself, Cathcart encountered rejection and even scorn at the hands of scientific and medical journal editors. JOM is proud to be one of the few platforms to have brought Bob's work to the attention of the world's healing professions.

Bob Cathcart received the Linus Pauling Award from the Society for Orthomolecular Health Medicine in 2002. He leaves a reminder for all who would do science: progress and success rest more on dispassionate observation and creative thinking than on all the gee-whiz technology mankind has ever come up with.

From Richard Huemer's article, "In Memoriam: Robert Fulton Cathcart III, M.D." Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine, 2007

Hi Erling,

As I posted above; I'm a bit frustrated that I on-the-face-of-it can't supplement with C since my ferritin is/always has been on the high side (250-300 as against range 50-400 - Jackie always says 50 or so is ideal) and, as you know, C increases iron absorption. What do you think? Would it be worth trying C and seeingif it DOES categorically increase ferritin, or am I best steering clear? I just ask given that Cathcart treated 10s of 1000s of people with mega C with no serious problems including, it would be fair to assume, hemachromatosis?

Regards,

Mike

Mike - I can appreciate your frustration over this. Why not try it? But... be sure that you don't go an extended time without re-evaluating the ferritin levels... I'd think try the C for 2 - 3 months and test.

In the literature about C and iron absorption... they always caution not to use C with meals as it increases the iron absorption. So, if you took your doses in strict isolation from meals, you may find it could work for you.

Since vitamin C is such an important nutrient, it seems worth a try.... and also remember if you can find a cooperative lab or clinic that will do regular phlebotomy, you could control the ferritin that way as well. I can't recall what you said about being able to do that.

Jackie

Hey Mike!

Oh boy -- "Terra incognita, here be dragons!" So, high iron causes high rate of oxidation (think rust) of organic molecules (of heart cells) (!) and 'lipid peroxidation' (as of cell membranes) = dys-rhythmia (!?) from "free radicals"--"reactive oxygen species". Common sense advice sez take plenty of anti-oxidants, right? Vitamin C (ascorbate) is mother nature's wonderful antioxidant and essential nutrient, right? But it also increases absorption of iron!! Help!!

Maybe the Horse's Mouth to the rescue? (actually about vitamin C and 'hemochromatosis'): [www.vitamincfoundation.org]. Meet Dr. Robert Cathcart again! - and Dr. Thomas Levy, and Dr. Selva Kumar, and Bill Sardi:

"Questions Frequently Asked by Health Professionals"

Q. Orthodox medicine advises people with Hemochromatosis (congenital iron overload in tissues) to avoid vitamin C? What is the foundation's opinion?

"The foundation understands that vitamin C facilitates iron absorption, but according to our advisors, it also helps to regulate unbound iron out of the body and might be a good treatment for this condition. People with hemochromatosis can take steps to reduce iron in the digestive tract at the same time they are taking vitamin C orally."

A. Opinion of Robert Cathcart, III, MD (orthomed.com):

"My clinical experience would indicate that vitamin C increases iron absorption when iron is needed. It seems to increase excretion of iron when there is an excessive amount of iron. Therefore, vitamin C might be a good treatment of hemochromatosis.

"This theoretical difficulty concerning C is typical of how the orthodoxy will expand a theory into a fact without any evidence."

Read it all, and please do try to open the "Paper recommended by Dr. Selva 'ANTIOXIDANTS FOR HAEMOCHROMATOSIS'..." My screen yells FORBIDDEN !!

Let us know what you make of this, Mike. Wishing you well!

Erling

Let's chew on this from Dr. Cathcart, above:

"My clinical experience would indicate that vitamin C increases iron absorption [only] when iron is needed. It seems to increase EXCRETION of iron when there is an excessive amount of iron. Therefore, vitamin C might be a good treatment of hemochromatosis."

Wow. Could it be that high iron / hemochromatosis is sometimes just a symptom of vitamin C deficiency? Another effect of (very common) "sub-clinical" scurvy?

Erling - that's very interesting... I wonder if anyone has experimented with that specific line of reasoning besides Dr. C...not that I doubt him whatsoever. It's just that it's such a common warning...of course, we know very well what often goes on as standard advice misses the mark completely...

So... Mike... you can be our experiment of one in this department... the logic of what Erling's points out in Cathcart's statement can't be ignored.

Fascinating stuff.

Jackie

Mike, I think this is the article Erling was forbidden from. Suggested by "Selva Kumar, MD opinion
I have managed many cases of iron overload because I see many Thallasaemia trait cases where the older patients usually have anemia but high ferritin levels. I continue giving 30 grams sodium ascorbate infusion weekly or biweekly for their chronic conditions, yet their ferritin DID NOT INCREASE and you see improvement in their anemia, with added folic, vitamin E and oral vitamin c at 3 to 6 grams per day."


[www.health-science-spirit.com]

Just keep track of your ferritin levels.

Adrian

Jackie, Erling and Adrian,

Many many thanks for posting the above.

I'll get on it and order some C from Hans' store and see how it goes for 3 months or so as Jackie suggests (-:

Kind regards,

Mike