Hi folks,

Just got my latest raft of blood work back. All A1. EXCEPT; for the first time I managed to get my Hc level done on the NHS, and it was NOT good at 17 (range here in UK >16, but upper limit in many other countries is, I believe, 12).

Have any other LAFrs here had elevated Hc levels in the past?? If so, what did you try to do about it and with what degree of success?? Did reducing Hc levels reduce your AF???

My own doc wants me to try a statin for its anti-inflammatory effects. but needless to say I'm fairly well set against that. Some initial reading suggests that I need to be looking hard at supplementing with folic acid (1mg/day), B12 (500mcg/day), B5 (10mg/day) and betaine (??). Does that sound OK as a starting point to you Jackie?? Should I add the betaine and, if so, at what daily dose?? Any other supplementary tweaks I need to be making? Whatever I try, my doc is willing to keep doing Hc level testing every three months or so, so it will be interesting to see what difference supplementation can make.

Many thanks and kind regards to all,

Mike

Jackie,

Here's a general all-round Hc-orientated supplement that looks OK to me.

[www.iherb.com]

Then again, here's an active folate supplement that looks particularly good:

[www.iherb.com]

Is this active variant a better way to go folate-wise??

Should I be looking for a one-tab-does-all-per-day answer here, or am I better off going for separate supplements ie as per the second one above for folate, another for B6 and another for B12?? Do I need to be adding other methylators and, if so, what??

As ever, there's a bewildering array of choice and I'd really appreciate your advice here!!

Mike

Mike, i take Twinlab's Daily One Without Iron, and it provides a whole passel of B complex vitamins plus lots of other goodies. Hans' vitamin store carries it. You can bring up the label online to read the ingredients. Recently my current doctor ordered a blood test for B12 plus some other stuff, and found me not to be deficient in B12, tho she did not share the number with me.
PeggyM

I too had high homocysteine. It was the result, it appears, of very low vitamin B12, which was in turn the result of my reaction to a long undetected chronic mold problem in our house. For what it's worth.

I've written about it here:

[www.remissionblog.com]

Hi Mike,

HCY of 17 is way too high, and definitely needs to be addressed. Please see the graph linked to below*. The bottom line, or near the bottom, is what might now be considered the 'missing link' in cardiac dysrhythmia, namely the need for adequate 'methylation' to control 'epigenomic expression', and by extension provide for health of the cell membranes and control over electrolytes. For example, a lack of methylation during pregnancy accounts for horrible birth defects, also much, or most, later life disease. It's all about adequasy of those nutrients that provide 'methyl groups", CH3. A good case in point is the FDA mandate years ago to fortify foods with folic acid, a 'methylator', so as to reduce the rate of birth defects such as 'spina bifida', a spinal neural tube defect -- etc. You will likely not get any further with your present supplements regimen until you take care of methylation nutritionally:

The first step should be evaluation of serum homocysteine, the marker for adequacy of methylation. Here is a graph for evaluating test results:
*[www.lef.org]

Below are the basic methylating supplements as recommended by Craig Cooney, PhD, [www.uams.edu]
From his 1999 book 'Methyl Magic':

-- Trimethylglycine powder (betaine), 750- 1,000 mg/day
-- Choline and inositol, tablet or capsule, 250 mg of each/day
-- Folic acid, 800 mcg/day
-- Vitamin B6 (preferably as P5P) at least 50 mg/day
-- Vitamin B12 (as methylcobalamine) sublingual, 500 mcg/day
-- Vitamin E, 400 IU/day
-- Zinc, 50 mg/day
-- Selenium, 200 mcg/day
-- EPA / DHA fish oil, 1,000 mg
-- Daily multivitamin and multimineral capsules, which will contain some of the above.

I wish you well, Mike. If you would like, write to me so as to discuss the role of consciousness in 'epigene expression'. This results from current understandings in quantum physics.

Erling

For further reading:
[www.lef.org]
[www.lef.org]

Hi Mike - Erling has responded and I'd like to direct you to a previous post outlining the components of an HCY-lowering supplement so you have a comparison... I'll email you a copy of the product data sheet so you can read the technical info.
Jackie

<[www.afibbers.org]>

Author: Jackie (---.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net)
Date: 08-22-10
Just to give an idea of a nutritional supplement designed specifically to manage HCY... here's the ingredient list of that from Designs for Health...
You can look for similar ingredients but be sure the form of each nutrient is the same so you get optimal results.

" Homocysteine Supreme (TM)

Vitamin B2 (as Riboflavin-5-Phosphate) 50 mg.
Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxine Hydrochloride 40 mg;(Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate 10 mg) 50 mg
Folates - (NatureFolate blend) 2 mg
Folinic Acid (as 5-Formyl tetrahydrofolate) 400 mcg
Vitamin B12 (as Methylcobalamin) 1000 mcg
Zinc (as Zinc Chelazome®Bis-Glycinate Chelate) 5 mg
Magnesium (as Magnesium Chelazome®Bis-Glycinate Chelate) 10 mg
Trimethylglycine (TMG) 500 mg
Choline 100 mg
Serine 100 mg
N-Acetyl-Cysteine (NAC) 100 mg
Take 2 capsules daily with meals.

This product contains synergistic nutrients including the proprietary NatureFolate (TM) blend of active isomer naturally-occurring folates known to facilitate the efficient metabolism of homocysteine. Homocysteine Supreme allows the homocysteine pathway which begins with methionine, to produce its necessary and important end-products, including the sulfur-containing amino acids taurine and cysteine and the neurotransmitters, norepinephrine and dopamine. Any block in this pathway can cause homocysteine to elevate.

Patients with homocysteine levels above 7 maybe in need of intervention with Homocysteine Supreme. Patients with a family history of early heart attacks or depression are prime candidates for such interventions as are patients with MTHFR enzyme abnormality. "

Corrected link:

[www.lef.org]

Hello Mike,

In picking a supplement to reduce homocysteine make sure you get one with natutal folate. There is increasing concern about how well the body handles synthetic folic acid. You may wish to take a look at a couple of products from Thorne Research:

Basic B-complex and 5MTHF

You can find both in my vitamin shop at:

[www.afibbers.org]

Hans

Jackie, Erling, Hans and all,

Many thanks for the helpful responses.

My major question to you is: which is the better course of action here: is it to take a one-tab-does-it-all approach like the 'Homocysteine Supreme' product that Jackie mentions, or get separate supplements as per Erling's (Rooney's) list?? The one-tab approach is obviously easier and cheaper, but will it get the job done at least 90% as well as taking the full compliment of supplements individually??

Please let me know what you guys think and I'll get straight to it!

Regards,

Mike

Hi again y'all,

I'm about to press the button on this little lot. Any comments Jackie/Erling et al on the brands and types before i do???? I think I've gone for decent makes and the correct variants/types.

Twinlab super E (400iu from d-alpha tocopheryl acid succinate) Caps + selenium (200mcg)

Now Foods Zinc picolinate 50mg

Natural Factors B12 Methylcobalamin 1000mcg sublingual

Source Naturals Coenzymated B6 (P5P) 100mg


Metagenics Folapro (active form called L-5-methyl tetrahydrofolate as Metafolin) 800mg

Now Foods Choline 250mg (from choline bitartrate) and Inositol 250mg

Now Foods TMG (Betaine anhydrous) 1000mg

Not too bad at all at $100 for a 3 months supply for the lot. Then I'll get the test done again and hopefully have a Hcy level of rather less than 17!!

Mike

Mike,

1) For what it's worth, I have a personal, rational reason for staying away from NOW brand supplements (the one possible exception being their potassium gluconate powder, which as far as I know is not available elsewhere?) To wit, apparently they must dilute their D-ribose powder, making it 2 tsp = 4.5 gm, whereas for some other brands (for inst. Doctor's Best) 1 tsp = 5 gm. By email, their customer rep. gave me a big irrational/ illogical/ song/dance about compressibility of powder, lot and batch variations, etc., all of which served to increase my distrust. Add to that the general concern about lack of dietary supplement manufacturing oversight / trust of quality based mostly on reputation, and NOW is now a no-no for me.

2) be sure to add selenium, 200 mcg (not mg!) per day. From an article I linked to [www.lef.org]: "Studies published in 2000 show that selenium is essential to maintain DNA methylation. Selenium, the form of L-selenomethionine, was most helpful in this regard."

3) Why in the world does your doctor want you on statins?

4) Above all, study! Read in detail the material I linked to, and email me for more if you get a chance.

Erling

Erling,

1) Noted: I've switched to other brands (Source Naturals, Jarrow etc.).

2) Selenium already included at 250mcg/day as part of Twinlab Super E.

3) Ostensibly to help reduce inflammation....... My cholesterol has ALWAYS been a bit high too - 5.2 last time (not that bad really, and not bad enough for a statin!).

4) Will do some studying this w/e.

Kind regards and many thanks for the further input (-:

Mike

Mike and all readers - Hans brings up an important point about using the natural folate form... avoiding synthetic folic acid. Methylation is such an important issue and understanding the reason why to use the natural form is very important as well.

Here’s a clip from a teleconference that discussed, in part, the issue of too much synthetic folic acid versus the natural forms.

...." The take home message about the whole concept of folic acid is that folic acid is synthetic. It’s not a naturally-occurring form of folate. If you have hypo-methylation, you are more prone to birth defects and various forms of cancer… but with hyper methylation, you are also at risk for cancers. The concept is that we are undoubtedly becoming exposed to too much folic acid and particularly in those individuals who have the MTHFR..polymorphism (Methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase) may not be able to metabolize the folic acid levels from both food supply and folic acid supplements and they may reach toxic levels which could have the potential to promote cancer – over time.. specifically colon and breast cancer (as noted in the literature). The problem to some degree is that unless you are testing specifically for that polymorphism, you don’t know whether you have it or not…so rather than guess, just eliminate the synthetic form of folic acid.

The natural forms of folates found in some supplements provide a safe option.

The homozygous form is in about 1 in 10 people and the heterozygous form is in about 40%. Almost half of the population will have the MTHFR polymorphism. It is definitely more clinically significant in the heterozygous patient So one out of 10 people who walk through your door will have trouble utilizing folic acid and having problems with DNA methylation so it’s not really all that rare… 10% of the population is significant."

“The more we learn about folic acid, the more it’s clear that giving it to everyone has very real risks,” says folic acid researcher David Smith, PhD, a professor of pharmacology at the University of Oxford in England, as quoted in the Prevention magazine article. (Is your breakfast giving your cancer?) [www.msnbc.msn.com]

I have a pdf file on the biochemistry behind these concerns… very detailed so if anyone wants to read more, just email me and I’ll send you a copy. You can check studies online about this:
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Following is an abstract from another article that spells it out and is easier to understand.

The natural folates are the way to go. Avoid synthetic folic acid.

Jackie


Folic acid — vitamin and panacea or genetic time bomb?
Abstract
We live in a health-conscious
age — many of us supplement our diet
with essential micronutrients through the
discretionary use of multivitamin pills or
judicious selection of foods that have a
health benefit beyond that conferred by
the nutrient content alone — the so-called
‘functional foods’. Indeed, the citizens of
some nations have little choice, with a
mandatory fortification policy in place for
certain vitamins. But do we ever stop to
consider the consequences of an increased
exposure to micronutrients? We examine
this issue in relation to the B-group vitamin
folic acid, and ask whether supplementation
with this vitamin could introduce a
strong genetic selection pressure — one
that has the side effect of increasing the
prevalence of some of the most significant,
human life-threatening diseases. Are we
affecting our genetics — is this a case of
human evolution in progress by altering
our diet?
by Mark Lucock and Zoë Yates

Mike,

Nobody should ever take a statin drug, for any reason, regardless of what the incredibly brainwashed doctors will have you believe about cholesterol. Homocysteine (HCY) is an entirely different matter, as it is the #1 risk in cardiovascular disease (CVD), and is in fact a marker for disease throughout the body, because the level of serum HCY indicates the degree of essential methylation taking place in all cells. The reason they/ we are not told this is of course because the remedy for high HCY is via un-patentable nutrients, the ones you are ordering, whereas statins are a multi-mega-billion dollar/pound/yen/franc/krone/whatever money machine for BigPharma. The combination of high cholesterol and high HCY is of course a high risk factor for CVD, but a statin will not remedy that. And, surely there are better, no-risk, anti-inflammatories than statins?

Read for instance the book 'The Cholesterol Myths' by amazing Danish researcher Uffe Ravnskov, MD, PhD, [www.ravnskov.nu], also this article of his which has been pos,ted several times in the past: 'The Benefits of High Cholesterol' [www.coconutoil.com] which begins:

"People with high cholesterol live the longest. This statement seems so incredible that it takes a long time to clear one´s brainwashed mind to fully understand its importance. Yet the fact that people with high cholesterol live the longest emerges clearly from many scientific papers. Consider the finding of Dr. Harlan Krumholz of the Department of Cardiovascular Medicine at Yale University, who reported in 1994 that old people with low cholesterol died twice as often from a heart attack as did old people with a high cholesterol.1 Supporters of the cholesterol campaign consistently ignore his observation, or consider it as a rare exception, produced by chance among a huge number of studies finding the opposite.

"But it is not an exception; there are now a large number of findings that contradict the lipid hypothesis. To be more specific, most studies of old people have shown that high cholesterol is not a risk factor for coronary heart disease. This was the result of my search in the Medline database for studies addressing that question.2 Eleven studies of old people came up with that result, and a further seven studies found that high cholesterol did not predict all-cause mortality either."

Erling

Jackie and Erling,

All noted and understood.

One last question (perhaps a bit moot since I ordered all my Hcy-fighting supplements last night): is the 'Metagenics Folapro' type of folate that I've ordered a good choice?? If not, is there a still better form of folate to supplement with??

Many thanks and kind regards,

Mike (who WILL NOT be taking a statin Erling!)

Folapro indicates the natural folate form.

Jackie

Erling: This is a very timely subject because my wife has stopped taking her doctor-prescribed statin because of the leg cramps it caused; two days after stopping, no more cramps.

Being "brainwashed", as Erling says above, she and I are left with a "What to do?" about the "key" blood lipids which I carefully document: LDL, HDL, Triglycerides, and Total? I guess you would counsel to not worry about any of them? Or would you?

What supplement combination are recommended for someone who is stopping statins and looking for the best supplements to avoid any of the problems that are associated with the heart? A clue for us is that my wife's lipid panels were "fine" while she was on the statin, but her CRP reading was "too high".

Would appreciate any further comments and suggestions.

Thanks,

Ken

Hi Ken,

Leg cramps can definitely be an early sign of 'peripheral myositis' or 'myopathy' from statin use, possibly caused by its simultaneous blockade of internal synthesis of coenzyme Q10 and other vital substances of the 'mevalonate' biochemical pathway. This is a process that, left unchecked, can lead in later life to the ultimate, deadly condition of 'rhabdomyolysis', the tragic outcome that caused Bayer Corp. to withdraw its statin Baycol, cerivastatin, "after causing at least 60 deaths".

I believe that the clear advice of Dr. Craig Cooney (above) regarding homocysteine is to be strongly recommended. My cholesterol has always been "high" according to "their" standards, but I could not possibly care less. Drs. Uffe Ravnskov, Kilmer McCully, Duane Graveline, and many, many others are the source for my understanding and freedom from the tyranny of BigPharma. But it was untreated high homocysteine that led to carotid artery blockage, and surgery in January (actually two back-to-back surgeries for the price of one - such a deal), plus a gift of 'iatrogenic stroke' and severely damaged peripheral nerves from the surgeon. But it was the prescription for high dose simvastatin (Zocor) at discharge from the hospital, which I trustingly took - for less than 6 weeks - that nearly did me in. Eight months later I'm finally becoming somewhat "normal" from the statin effects, although the future is still unclear.

For obvious legal reasons this forum can't offer specific medical advice, only knowledge, and for that one should of course rely on the elite, most highly qualified medical science researchers. Here is Dr. Kilmer McCulley,MD, the scientist who alone, and at great initial cost to his career, ultimately prevailed in his quest for acceptance of knowledge about homocysteine as the initial source of arterial damage that sets the stage for cholesterol. The following is an excerpt. Reading the full article provides a good understanding of the research history, and of the politics of "The Cholesterol Myth" (Uffe Ravnskov) as it stands today. Duane Graveline, MD's website offers enough supporting evidence to convince any critic. [www.spacedoc.net]

Wishing you well, Ken!

Erling
=======================

An excerpt. Read the full article at: [www.spacedoc.net]

By Kilmer McCully, M.D.

The longest running study of cardiovascular disease in a population was initiated in Framingham, Massachusetts in 1948 and continues to this day. This important longitudinal study identified important major risks for disease, especially smoking, lack of exercise, age, male gender, and elevated cholesterol levels in younger men.

In spite of the great emphasis on cholesterol levels, the Framingham study made several critical observations that refute the "diet-heart" hypothesis. In the first place, dietary cholesterol has no relation to cholesterol levels in the blood, and dietary cholesterol has no relation to the risk of developing cardiovascular disease.

This observation was confirmed by multiple large studies from Chicago, Puerto Rico, Honolulu, Netherlands, Ireland, and the massive Lipid Research Clinics study of US citizens. The next astounding finding is that elevated cholesterol is not a risk factor for women of any age or for men over age 47.

Furthermore, both total mortality and cardiovascular mortality in Framingham participants increases in those with LOW cholesterol levels. This finding has been confirmed by multiple studies from Canada, Sweden, Russia, and New Zealand. These contradictory findings have been ignored, distorted, and incorrectly reported by supporters of the "diet-heart" hypothesis.
=======================

This account by Dr. Duane Graveline of his tragic experience with the statin Lipitor is from his website [www.spacedoc.net]:

My first book, Lipitor, Thief of Memory, was written after my two bouts of transient global amnesia (TGA) associated with the use of Lipitor in the years 1999 - 2000. Predictably at that time, I was focused on cognitive dysfunction and Lipitor.

I soon realized the adverse reactions involved far more than impaired cognition, including personality change, myopathy, neuropathy and a chronic neuromuscular degeneration similar to ALS, and that all statins were contributing to these adverse reactions, not just Lipitor.

It was in this climate that I wrote my second book, Statin Drugs Side Effects. This is when I learned what reductase inhibition really meant. The reductase step blocked by statins was at the very beginning of the mevalonate pathway.

This pathway to cholesterol synthesis is also shared by many extremely important biochemical substances, including coenzyme Q10, inhibition of which was the cause of many of these side effects.

One cannot reduce cholesterol by the use of statins without simultaneously blocking these other biochemicals sharing the mevalonate pathway. Then I learned that CoQ10 inhibition was contributing to increased mitochondrial damage and premature senility - the dark side of statins. My book, the Statin Damage Crisis was written to help people understand this."

Duane Graveline, MD, MPH.
Astronaut and Flight Surgeon

Erling: Many thanks for sharing this further information. And let me say, as I think others have said, that your presence on this forum and your willingness to help by sharing your experience, knowledge, and information sources, is a true "service of the heart" that I and many others appreciate very much.

Besides the subject I described regarding my wife's leg cramps and subsequent stopping of statin intake, I myself, am 10 days away from the TTM to be performed at Ohio State by Dr. Sirak. I am planning to take a good supply of the antioxident supplements I have been taking for a long time (fish oil, green tea extract, and grape seed extract) and may add some of the items which have been mentioned earlier in this thread. I have to believe that suppressing inflamation and inflamatory processes after this procedure will (or should) help my recovery.

Ken