paleolithic diet v. standard diet potassium/sodium ratios

<[en.wikipedia.org];

Sodium-potassium ratio

Since no processed foods or added salt are included, the sodium intake (~726 mg) is lower than average U.S. values (3,271 mg) or recommended values (2,400 mg). Further, since potassium-rich fruits and vegetables compose ~30% of the daily energy, the potassium content (~9,062 mg) is nearly 3.5 times greater than average values (2,620 mg) in the U.S. diet.[3] The inverted ratio of potassium to sodium in the U.S. diet compared with pre-agricultural diets adversely affects cardiovascular function and contributes to hypertension and stroke.[98][134]
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So, the paleolithic* diet provides a K/Na ratio of 12.5 : 1.
(9,062 / 726 = 12.48)

The standard American diet (SAD) provides a K/Na ratio of 0.8 : 1.
(2,620 / 3,271 = 0.80)

*This "paleolithic" diet is of course today's "designer" version. There are studies showing that the actual paleolithic diet probably provided as much as 15,000 mg of potassium per day.

Erling:

Do you (or any others) have links/references to any clinical studies done to show the beneficial effects of potassium (and magnesium) on atrial fibrillation? I have been reading here and searching on line and while I am not done (and have not found anything useful). I want/need to lay some clinical results on the desk of my current EP to see if he agrees with my current regimen of electrolyte support. I mentioned this once in the past and he was dismissive that any serum electrolytes could have any effects on afib. I realize I may need to find another more enlightened EP, but having some clinical data might open his eyes somewhat.

Any suggestions or links?

Thanks for all of the science you post. It can be overwhelming to newcomers like myself, but surely seems valuable.

Ken

I realize I need to revisit the Conference Room reports (I have already read through some). It is a lot of material to remember or note (hence my other thread post asking about how you bookmark all of this information), but I was hoping for some specific pointers. Thanks.

Ken
I suspect you will not convince your EP of the benefit of electrolytes. Mine does not give me a hard time but he doesn't "endorse" either.
But, Jackie's Observational Report is an excellent resource. I have read two of the books that she references : "The Magnesium Factor" by Seelig and Rosanoff and "High Blood Pressure Solution-Natural Prevention and Cure with the K Factor" by Moore. I learned much from both books. I have also read "The Sinatra Solution" by Stephen Sinatra (a holistic cardiologist). Excellent and straightforward. I suspect Jackie references this book as well.
Hope you have success with your EP.
Cyndie

Ken,

Hard to come by, but here are some:

[www.internationaljournalofcardiology.com]

[journals.lww.com]

[www.annemergmed.com]

Also if you look up hypokalemia (low serum K) and hypomagnesmia (low Mg), you'll see that either can cause arrhythmia. For that matter, so can the hyper (high or excess) versions of both.

Some here experiment with benefit of consultation with their EP's others direct their own treatment. I had to get to the third cardio (an EP) before I got one that understood magnesium had a benefit. The second didn't "believe" in vagal afib & his favorite med was digioxin (which I refused to take & is contraindicated for vagal afibbers). My philosophy is that MD's are consultants who work for me. If they aren't satisfactory, I replace them. I am fortunate to have a GP who is a friend and puts up with me.

I think your task of educating your EP is difficult. I would have hour long discussions with cardio #2 about vagal afib. He was very bright. Regarding vagal afib. He said, "I'm sure there are papers in your field that I could come up with that you would not agree with." My GP used to get a big chuckle when he'd get the reports of my visits with cardio #2. They must have painted me as a big pain in the ___.

George


George

Cyndie: thanks for the reminders and book names.

George: thanks for the three links. Curious nothing on potassium tested similarly.

You both are right regarding the EP. While there are some convenience factors having this EP (same practice with my cardio plumber--fixes blocked pipes if there are any), the lack of expertise and interest to guide me leaves me alone and with the need to interview some new ones, a time and cost related process.

Maybe five years from now we will be reading in the newspaper (if there are still newspapers - another topic not suitable for here) about how K and Mg are the mainstays of physicians everwhere, even your friendly nurse practioner in the local WalMart knows all about them and will guide you during one of your visits to stock up on groceries -- bananas in aisle 5, afib solutions near the check out registers.

Ken

Ken,

You might find something useful among the 110 references in the conference room session "Magnesium and Potassium in LAF" by Patrick Chambers MD. You can find it here:

[www.afibbers.org]

Also, I don't quite understand the need to convince your EP that magnesium and potassium supplementation might be useful. After all it is your body and you are in charge of it.

Hans

Ken

I see an EP in London who is very co-operative and open minded. He says that no research is being done on the effect of potassium and magnesium supplementation so there is no evidence on whether they work or not.

Gill (nsr since ablation in Bordeaux Jan 2003)

Any practicing Cardiologist with any years on him, was trained many years ago, with information many years older than that. It is my opinion that most cardiologists are practicing with information from the 1970's. Also they are so busy, and confident in their knowledge, that few of them spend much time at all learning any new information. The older the Doc, the older his information. I have met interns with more up to date perspectives on afib.

Just my opinon, I dont have any materials to reference, perhaps someone else does?

Ken - I have those references in the Observational Report that I sent you.
Jackie

Jackie> Got it. Will study in detail, something I have not had time to do until now.

Ken

Curt,

I agree with what you are saying, but there's much more to it. You're kinda giving that kind of doctoring a free pass by allowing shallow reasons for being that way. To be ignorant and unable or un-motivated to keep up with new knowledge is one thing, but to be opinionated and arrogantly dismissive is something else entirely. I actually think that many doctors are that way because of family wealth that allowed the expensive and extensive education, thus an ingrained sense of superiority, and "I'm a doctor therefor I know, and you're a patient who doesn't". A polarized relationship rather than mutual cooperation in the task of getting the patient well. I'm remembering the '60's and 'Transactional Analysis' and the book 'I'm OK, You're OK', and the joke on it 'I'm OK, You're not so hot'. This is a good opportunity for me to pay tribute to a friend and a much better way for a doctor to relate, with humility and kindness:

Gerald Tantillo, an internist and a fine physician, was trained in the 70's, and was one of the most open minded and self-effacing persons I've known -- and I've been blessed with having had many, many wonderful people and doctors in my life, for myself and for my family. There were times I would actually spend a co-pay just to have the opportunity to share with him how and why I was confident about overcoming my a-fib without the use of drugs or procedures (and that actually did happen, more than eight years ago). He would just listen with great understanding and encouragement, freely admitting that medicine really had nothing to offer (no left atrium ablations yet). Or I'd go just to have my BP and weight and temperature checked and a nice 20 minute chat about anything but medicine, maybe about fly fishing and the local mountains, which we both loved. Sometimes the visit really was medical, like the time I thought to have a troublesome sore on my ear frozen away, but wound up with a referral for a biopsy and removal of a small cancerous growth. It was always just first names although I never knew him outside his office. He once told me (this was after my successful a-fib cure), that he'd recently been hospitalized with a pulmonary embolism, and earlier with kidney stones, so I told him some things I thought were relevant that he might like to know about, like magnesium and stones and deep vein thrombosis and nattokinase. I'll never forget him once saying "I always learn something from you". The last time I saw him he gave me a hug when he left the room, where before we always just shook hands. Later I received a letter, sent to all of his patients, saying he was undergoing chemotherapy and hoped to be back soon. He died of cancer. In the lobby of the clinic the other doctors and staff made a lovely memorial with pictures of him fishing and camping with friends, some pebbles made to look like a stream, his rod and reel, some pine cones and wild flowers and a registry filled with heartfelt thanks and condolences for his family from his many grateful patients. That hug was his goodbye. He left a huge impression on me. He was a great man and physician, and he taught me a lot. I miss him.

Erling, Though we never met, now I miss him too. I hope to someday meet a physician like that.

Gill, i assume he does not consider your experience to be evidence.
PeggyM

Curt - that's a very nice comment. In talking with Erling over so many years, I, too loved Dr. Tantillo for his receptive and caring attitude. He and others like him are missed.

In a interview with Ron Rosedale, MD, who is well known for his research into the function of leptin and insulin, he comments that what is taught in medical school is the basic 'stuff'... and it's up to doctors to continue on with their own research to continue to learn more. He says nutrition is not taught and doctors are ignorant unless they pursue it on their own....and as we know... most don't because their continuing education comes from the drug reps.

As for cardiologists knowing about AF, there are really few that do unless they make an effort to have a subspecialty in arrhytmia. I've commented previously, that I saw 3 cardiologists prior to finding one who really knew how to manage AF.

Jackie

Hi Cyndie,

It's good to know that you have been studying the books in Jackie's important Observational Report, aka The Strategy- What Metabolic Cardiology Means to Afibbers. The combined science within those books provides a deep understanding of how to proceed with the management of a-fib, its amelioration, even its cure.

In fact, my reason for the opening post was to emphasize the importance of one book, Dr. Moore's The High Blood Pressure Solution, wherein he explains very clearly why one's intake of potassium (K) should be - at least! - 4 times that of sodium (Na). This book is a result of his doctoral work in biophysics, so it is high science and should be heeded as such for the sake of all of the body's cells, not just the arterial smooth muscle cells that can cause high blood pressure if their internal calcium is not controlled as nature intended, but all of the many-trillion cells, and for a-fibbers' sake obviously those of the atrial musculature.

So here are the sad facts:

-- our SAD diet provides a K/Na ratio of 0.8:1
-- our diet SHOULD provide a K/Na ratio of 4:1 - at least. That's 5 times SAD!!
-- a-fib is a "disease of civilization". See [www.afibbers.org]

Erling

Peggy

This EP and I work very well together and I respect him. He is pleased that I am well informed about AF and often gives me pointers about what to research next. I think I am lucky to have such an open-minded person as my EP.

He is very happy for me to be taking the supplements, records the amounts and my reports in the notes, and totally accepts that they have helped me. I have told him about people on this board who have stopped their AF without surgery or medication - he listens and has never denied that it can work.

When he says no evidence exists I think he means published peer-reviewed double blind trials.

Gill

Thanks for explaining, Gill.
PeggyM