So Maybe Mono Atomic Mag (Angstrom) Not So Special?

In reading the various analysis of Angstrom Magnesium the "take" is that it is not anything so super special? I will say though that after 4 doses of 90 MG. 3 between 4 and 9 yesterday and one this morning I notice absolutely no stomach distress.....where as if I had used even mag gly I think I would have?

TP

PS - Erling, not to worry! I have no bomb making plans

Tom,

A few people here have used mag chloride (mag oil) topically. I don't recall anybody (besides me) using it orally. If Angstrom Magnesium works well, that is good information. If it is mag chloride, then there are other (cheaper) ways to get it. I believe it is well worth the experiment for those who are trying it. It may be that mag chloride is in fact "special."

There are reported data on the 'net showing increase in Exatest mag results from the use of magnesium oil. As difficult as that is to accomplish, it is certainly worth looking into.

I've not specifically analyzed it, but my impression is that Angstrom magnesium is more expensive than magnesium oil which are both much more expensive than Nigari (mag chloride used in Japan to coagulate tofu).

There are a lot of positive reports on the net about mag oil, and in Japan, making a drink from Nigari is considered very healthful.

My critique is not to say that Angstrom mag is not effective, only that it may be an expensive way to get mag chloride, if it is in fact mag chloride.

If it works for people and keeps them in NSR, it is worth the cost.

George

thanks George appreciate your input , I am going to dig into it some more......TP

George and Tom,

I don't know why it is working for me. I think that it is more a confluence of circumstances, the change in the times I supplemented, the IM Shots finally working. Also the sub-lingual use seems (seems is the operative word, a placebo effect maybe?) to work. I tried the Waller Waller Water. I just haven't been able to achieve the same results yet. I am going to keep trying. It is just such bliss not to have as many pacs. My mag daily intake is now at about 1200 mgs. a day.

Steve

Steve:

If it is working for you, then keep taking it, why keep analysing it. I was at my local health food store a couple of days ago and purchased a bottle of the liquid magnesium.


Elizabeth H.

Steve out of 1200 MG how much of that is Angstrom? Tom

To ask "out of 1200 MG how much of that is Angstrom?" is nonsensical. Combining the word 'Angstrom' with 'magnesium' is PR BS.

Tom,

900 of the glycinate and 300 of the liquid.

Steve

So, if it works, it may be that some brave soul could try the single case model as referenced by Dick [www.afibbers.org]

Simply a research design using the Single Case model could be:

Simplest Single-Case Design
A-B

Classic Reversal
A-B-A

Alternating-Treatments Design
A-B-C-A-C-A-B-A-C

Now everyone is right now in an A-B mode - before & after.

The rub will be, if B (the Angstrom brand magnesium) works, to revert to A (take it away) as in the Classic Reversal design.

If it is working, I'm guessing many will be reticent to revert to the A mode.

Then there is a possible C mode - adding in or replacing the Angstrom brand (with a nod of the hat to Erling) with another form of liquid magnesium chloride (assuming the Angstrom brand is that).

By the way, this site states 3,000 ppm [www.angstrom-mineral.com]. Well 3,000 ppm = 3,000/1,000,000= 3/1000 = 0.003 or 0.003x100 = 0.3%

This compares with the 2.5% mag chloride water I've made from Nigari <[www.afibbers.org];
Mike's source: <[www.afibbers.org]; [www.detoxyourworld.com] is 350 ppm or 0.035%

Trying to keep these discussions linked for future reference, here are some recent threads of interest:
[www.afibbers.org]
[www.afibbers.org]

George

Erling wow calm down, I only asked how much of his 1200 MG of Magnesium was the Angstrom form.......T

George,

I will try C (A seems foolish) and use the Nigari. You have been a great help to me. Let see what happens. I have no loyalty to the people in Utah, so if this approach saves me money why not? 125 ml is roughly 416 mgs of magnesium, so I will take roughly 3/4 of that amount to equal the 300 mgs that I take now. You must take it sub-lingually? To make this trial work, it will have be done over a period of time. Other factors also contribute to outcomes such as stress, potassium intake, hormonal changes etc. etc. Can we really measure the variables at stake in any given day? I guess the desired outcome is the same or fewer numbers of pacs and obviously no afib episodes. Of course, if there is a placebo effect that will be hard to account for. The recommendation came from the high priestess of the magnesium researchers, Carolyn Dean. That endorsement could have produced positive hormonal effects. Given other factors and the low intake level, I wonder how can a conclusion be reached?

That said George, I hope that you are right. I like most of us here are in to saving money. As I stated, I really don't know what produced the change. Lets just hope that I and anybody else for that matter who achieves some degree of success can maintain it.

Steve

Tom -

I was calm. I am calm. It's not possible for magnesium to be of "the Angstrom form" [cheezburger.com]

Tom:

Erling is either a wit or a twit with his cheezburger site, he hit me with it as well.

You have stocked the angstrom mag. H2O in your store, let your customers decide if it is helping, I don't think you can make waller water and sell it, then again maybe you could.

Elizabeth

Steve,

"You must take it sub-lingually?"

To the extent some makes it under my tongue, yes. Otherwise, just down the gullet.

For magnesium, currently, I'm taking:

2x400 mg mag glycinate (as KAL brand mag glycinate)
2x125 ml 2.5% mag citrate water
2x 4 oz mag bicarbonate water (aka Waller Water)

George

George,

Do you buy the Masu Nigari?

Steve

Steve,

I am truly glad to hear that something is working for you. However, my guess would be that it is the intramuscular injections that are doing the trick. By the way, are the injections just magnesium or are they in the form of the Myer's cocktail?

Hans

Tom,

In my opinion the Angstrom magnesium is an over-hyped rip-off. I have looked at their web site and noticed a couple of statements that are patently absurd to anyone with even a passing knowledge of physical chemistry.

"Angstrom liquid minerals are the smallest form of liquid minerals today."
As far as I know there is no such thing as a mineral that is liquid at room temperature. Mercury is liquid, but that is a metal.

"Our Angstrom minerals are one Angstrom in size."
This is patently absurd as the diameter of a single magnesium atom is 3.2 Angstrom. I doubt that the product contains magnesium atoms that have been split into 3 parts.

Quite apart from the hype the product is obscenely expensive. A 16 oz bottle costs $18.87. The recommended (daily?) dosage is one ounce (6 teaspoons). According to the web site one teaspoon of Angstrom magnesium contains 15 mg of elemental magnesium which works out to 90 mg per ounce. Thus a 16 oz bottle of Angstrom magnesium contains a total of 1440 mg or 1.44 gram of elemental magnesium. This equates to a cost of $ 13.10 per gram.

In a recent post Erling calculated the cost of other forms of magnesium. For Waller water it was $0.56 per gram of elemental magnesium and for magnesium glycinate it was $0.80 per gram. Thus one gram of elemental magnesium from Angstrom magnesium costs about 20 times more than a gram from our tried and true magnesium supplements, Waller water and magnesium glycinate.

That said, if you feel it works for you and you are willing to pay the price I hope it continues to work and that you'll share your results at some future date.

Hans

Hans,

500 mgs 2X a week of just magnesium. Now that I have achieved a respectable base level, do you think that I should continue the shots to try to keep pushing the number higher? My plan was to reduce to once a week, but maybe I should continue with the twice a week regimen.

Steve

Steve,

I purchase Mitoku Nigari [www.naturalimport.com]. This is what I had analyzed for heavy metals.

See: <[www.afibbers.org];

The results are in micro grams/gram. A micro gram is 1/1,000,000 of a gram. So Ca 1810.25 &#956;g/g means the sample was 0.00181025 Ca or as percent 0.181025% Ca.

Simlarly for Na 1960.25 = 0.196025% Na & no Hg, Pb or arsenic.

<[www.afibbers.org];

I should clarify from above:
For magnesium, currently, I'm taking:

2x400 mg mag glycinate (as KAL brand mag glycinate)
2x125 ml 2.5% mag chloride (not citrate as stated above) water
2x 4 oz mag bicarbonate water (aka Waller Water concentrate)

Also I space all of the above out. The pH of the chloride is around 6 and the Waller Water is 8 ish. So I don't take the WW around meals.

George

Thanks George,
You have convinced me, I am moving ahead. The nigari should only make things better, plus cheaper. Have you done an Exatest recentl?. As I posted my mag. was in range 34.3, just above the 33.9. I am thinking though that a healthy range for us afibbers should be at least 37 or 38, what do you think?

Steve

Steve, my '09 Exatest score (which I hope you saw, I posted it many times for eduction):

MAGNESIUM: 41.5 (33.9 - 41.9)

I have been out of afib for 8 years.

The higher the better, within range, of course.

Combined with a high K/Na ratio, I believe most cases of afib would be bye bye.

Erling

Thanks Erling,

My K/Na ratio is very high 37.8 (19.4-38.9), so I am okay there. Now to get the magnesium up above 41. That may take a little longer. My k/Mag is a little high so I am cutting my supplementation from 1200 to 900 mgs a day. I get quite a bit of K in my food.
Steve

Tom, i think the "stomach distress" you speak of after taking Mg glycinate must actually be "bowel distress", the kind that makes you want to go sit on the throne while your gut expels everything in it. Politeness is great stuff but sometimes it gets in the way of accuracy.

If you should happen to take potassium chloride in large enough quantities, it will cause genuine stomach distress, by which is meant a pain in your actual stomach, which is the first place your food lands after you swallow it.

The bowel is the long, complicated, many-folded tube inside your abdomen, the place where your food goes after it leaves your stomach. The bowel runs from the stomach to the anus. When this long folded tube becomes full of liquid, all that liquid gets dumped, along with any food that happens to still be in there at that time, rather than having the normal progress, which is for digestive enzymes to be mixed with the food and excess liquid removed by the bowel and sent to the bladder via the kidneys and then the food's nutrient content is removed by the intestinal villi and sent into the bloodstream and used by all the different parts of the body like the heart and brain, for example. The residue is then shunted out. Mg glycinate is specially formulated to reach the bowel and be absorbed there rather than being dissolved in the stomach.
PeggyM

thanks Peggy and to everyone involved in this discussion. I have this Angstron Mag so I will now include it to my mag intake but not the sole source. I am going to balance it with gylycinate and the Pure Essence Ionic Fizz mag that I use.......I am 8+ weeks now of no afib and like everybobdy trying to find my perfect balance.

Erling , 8 yrs, incredible. I would settle for 8 months!

TP

Wit OR a twit? Can't I be both?

Hi Steve,

No, I've only taken the Exatest once, while I was in persistent afib, 5 years and 10 months ago. All indications are that I still need to ingest copious quantities of magnesium. So I'm not sure what it would prove that I don't already know.

11/5/04 (mo/day/yr) terminate 2.5 month persistent afib with PIP flecainide - takes 20 hours to convert. Start supplements (played around with the dosages, but something like 3 grams elemental potassium as citrate, 800 mg elemental magnesium as glycinate 4 grams taurine taken in divided doses.

All afib after this point terminated with PIP flecainide
Dates are approximate, from memory

12/3/04 3 AM afib, 20 hour conversion - assume atrial stunning from persistent afib still in effect

3/1/05 run out of taurine, don't bother to replace it - I rationalize it isn't doing anything

3/22/05 afib around midnight, sleeping in 3-person snow cave I constructed. Broke trail for hours in 3'+ snow with snowshoes & heavy pack. My helpers weren't much, so constructed the large cave mostly by myself for many hours. If you've done this, you know how much work it is. Point being I was running my system at "redline" for many hours. Chewed the PIP flec and washed it down with waterbottle that was partially frozen. 25 minutes to convert.

4/22/05 afib - 3 AM. Don't recall the trigger. Convert in less than 1 hour w/PIP flecainide.

5/1/05 remember I've not been taking taurine. Restart - duh!!

6/5/07 Think that I'm sensitive to fillers in supplements. Stop taking all of them. Within one or two days went into afib - 3 AM. Convert in less than 1 hour. Immediately restart supplements - duh!!

8/5/08 Afib, wake up in tent at midnight after day of high altitude (>12,000' or 3,600 m) backpacking. There is a huge thunderstorm with a deluge of water. My PIP flec is up in a "bear bag" suspended high between trees. I brave the weather and get the flec. Convert in less than 1 hour. Climb a 14er the next morning w/o incident.

9/5/08 Afib, again late night in tent after multiple days of high altitude backpacking. Had climbed a very rugged peak of 13,800' (4,200 m). Have tent again a long way from "bear bag". Get PIP and convert in less than 1 hour.

Have afib episodes associated with hard exercise in 10/08 and again in 1/09. Dawns on me that mag might be the issue. Add more magnesium in the form of citrate - about 1 gram elemental.

10/5/09 Have started a "ketogenic" diet (very low carb). One of the characteristics of this diet is you use all the stored glycogen in you muscles. Each molecule of glycogen is associated with 3 grams water, which dumps through your kidney (hence the lost "water weigh" of a diet). This water is a transient effect, but can cause electrolyte wasting. Notice for a number of nights that I can "feel" my heart when I lie down to go to sleep. This is normally an indication of not enough potassium. So I increase potassium intake by the "bucket." Does not help & keeps getting worse. I'm getting lots of ectopics & think I'm going to go into afib. Sure enough, one morning around 2 AM, I'm in afib. I convert in an hour with the PIP. Am wearing my recording heart rate monitor. Go back to sleep and wake up in an hour with a steady (NSR) heart rate of 130. This is not normal for PIP flecainide for me. My NSR heart rate immediately after conversion with flec would normally be in the 80's. So, it finally dawns on me - not enough magnesium. I take 400 mg of glycinate and another 400 of citrate - powder dissolved in liquid for quick action. In ten minutes my heart rate is down in the 80's! So getting the message, I added more mag into my routine in the form of 8 oz Waller Water concentrate.

My analysis - I waste copious quantities of magnesium. The potassium I added when I could feel my heart probably exacerbated the situation by blocking some of the magnesium absorption. Heavy exercise also plays a role in magnesium depletion for me. My very first episode followed a training run at 14,000'. In addition, a significant number of afib episodes while on supplements followed heavy activity. I no longer train for endurance events but haven't given up all outdoor activity. I do add extra mag if I'm especially active.

George

Thanks George,

That is very informative. Each one of my episodes that I can remember (there were others before I I knew I had the condition) started as thump thump and then a period of normal beats and then a second thump, thump and we were off to the races. I was electro-cardioverted once (7 weeks in afib) and the other times used the pill in the pocket (low dosage 100 mgs). One event actually started and ended very quickly, not more than 10-15 minutes. I sense a short period of tachycardia precedes the afib, but I am not absolutely sure of this point. My goal now is to get that Exatest number, as per Erling's suggestion, around 40 or 41. Then we'll see what happens.

Steve

Tom,

Do you spread your supplementation out over the whole day? That approach may help with your stomach issues.

Steve

Tom and all.... it is always necessary to spread out supplement dosing throughout the day and even save some for bedtime so the absorption takes place slowly and over the extended time period. Jackie

Steve,

This is purely a guess on my part, but I would think that biweekly injections providing 500 mg of elemental magnesium per injection for 4 weeks followed by 4 weeks of just one injection per week would be adequate.

Hans

Hans,

I have already done biweekly injections since the end of March, but I feel that I should continue until my IC numbers are in the 40 to 41 range.

Steve

Hi Tom,

I see this topic is pretty much closed. I want to thank you for it, because the title gives me the giggles every time I see it, which is always. I need that. Pretty soon it will disappear from sight and I'll be the loser. Ol' P.T. said there's a sucker born every minute*. Marketing wizards know that's the truest of true.

*This is hilarious!: "Barnum is also affiliated with the famous quote "There's a sucker born every minute". History, unfortunately, has misdirected this quotation. Barnum never did say it. Actually, it was said by his competitor. Here's the incredible story": [www.historybuff.com]

Actually i think Hans said it best,"In my opinion the Angstrom magnesium is an over-hyped rip-off."

PeggyM