Before you get your covid vaccine.....

Ask these questions:

“Where is your epinephrine kit?”

"Where is your EpiPen?"

They're going to have one or the other, not both.

But I'm curious why you feel the need to post a warning like this. Did you post similar warnings about other new-ish vaccines like pneumonia and shingles?

[www.cdc.gov]

If you get it at a medical venue they have epi available for you-see above link). I believe you need a rx to get an epi pen. If you don’t have allergies how will you get a pen?

I got a mild reaction immediately. A dr and a nurse were called over and triaged me. They examined my mouth (not swollen), pulse (was 60-not high) and took my BP. A low BP I was told is a symptom. Mine was 182. They gave me a Benadryl and kept coming over to examine me every 10 minutes for an hour.

I speculate epi will trigger af to some so unless it’s necessary I wouldn’t use epi as preventative unless it’s 100% necessary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2021 01:33AM by susan.d.

I would buy Benadryl tho. I also got a rx for 20mg prednisone 30-60 minutes prior to the jab before my second dose-not to take together with Benadryl (learned that during chemo).

Maybe have ice available for your arm. The first 24 hours my arm was very sore. Now I have piercings intermittent stabbing nerve pains all day long. Ice helps.

The CDC requires well stocked Epi-pens at every vaccine station in a given vaccine facility. I saw a bunch of them on Tuesday when Magdalena and I got our first Moderna dose from Lot# 011L20A in Cottonwood Arizona which is about 25 miles from Sedona where we live.

We got in a bit early due to a good sized snow storm from Sunday thru Wednesday dumping 10.5 inches at our home. The vaccine group in Cottonwood had sent out a notice to all with appointments for this week at their facility that any one who did not want to fight the snow, would automatically have their appointments reset for the following week on the same time as they had set up for this week previously (my original appointment was for today Thursday the 28th at noon) but I called early Tuesday morning when the roads were pretty jammed with snow and ice and asked if they could fit us in that morning ... our Audi's have all wheel drive so no problems in the snow and the scheduler kindly plugged us in for 10:00 AM!

The whole thing has been pretty much a breeze ... Magdalena's shoulder was a bit more tender than mine was, but the shoulder soreness disappeared for both of us last night Wednesday night and was totally gone by yesterday (Thurs) morning! The shoulder pain wasn't any worse than any typical tetanus shot of the past. We both had no other symptoms to speak of. Though I've heard a number of reports that the second dose is more likely to have a increase in first 36 to 48 hours symptom list.

I'm in the middle of my physical therapy still for the last of my hand surgeries (Yeah!) and my 37 year old male physical therapist got his first Moderna dose on December 24th and he got his second dose just last Friday. At my session with him yesterday he said the second dose side effects was very strong with a fever and chills of just over 100 degrees but it lasted for only 12 hours. To put it in a possible context, he also had four days of strong shoulder pain and had to take a three hour nap the first day after his morning first shot and he had to jump in bed by 8pm that first night. Significantly stronger first shot reactions that either Magdalena and I had from round one but we are nearly twice older than my PT as well.

On the CDC M&MWR Morbidity & Mortality Weekly Report from January 15th. They noted that with the Pfizer Vaccine over about 8 to 10 days I believe it said ... there were 1,836,360 vaccine recipients in the US and of those 1,836,360 recipients, only 21 showed any anaphylactic reactions and of those 21 people across the US 17 had a past history of frequent anapylaxis from various origins ... that amounts to a vanishingly small 11.1 anaphylactic reactions per million cases. In other words, that equals an odds of 0.0001% chance of having such a reaction ... not zero, but vanishing small odds!

Yes, it is important to know that your vaccine facility stocks Epi-pens for that rare person who might have a significant reaction, but it is not at all a common occurrence.

And the age range noted for both the large scale approval trials, plus including the first 1,836,360 cases with Pfizers vaccine ... the median age was 43 years old and the oldest person to have anaphylactic reaction was 65yrs old.

This stat largely reflects the fact that relatively younger people are more prone to having a significant post vaccination side effect, mostly the more typical transient side effects like increase flu-like aches and pains, weakness/fatigue, sore shoulder for a few days and possibly chills and fever when the side effects are more pronounced.
And certainly the very rare anaphylactic reactions largely are seen in folks well under 65 years old.

No doubt anyone of any age can have an outlier effect from a vaccine, but it is reassuring to know that those younger folks with typically more robust immune systems are thus more prone to stronger transient side effects than us over-the-hill-gang :-)! Even the typical season flu shots are reserved for people over 65 yrs due to marginally weaker immune systems thus requiring greater potency of the vaccinations for older folks to compensate.

Cheers!
Shannon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2021 12:02PM by Shannon.

The link I shared from the cdc stated they require 3 epi pens at each location so there shouldn’t be a problem in the super rare event it is needed.

Quote
susan.d
I also got a rx for 20mg prednisone 30-60 minutes prior to the jab before

Do you realize that by taking prednisone prior to a vaccination you're tamping down your immune response, which might very well reduce the effectiveness of the vaccine?

Without a prior history of anaphylactic reactions, there is no reason for anyone to pretreat themself with Benadryl or anything else. Doing so is going to be somewhere between useless and harmful for 99.9999% of all people.

Good to know. Thanks. In that case I’ll just risk an over zealous nurse from giving me an epi pen if my reaction returns the second time. If given epi, I speculate I run the risk of getting af.

If someone is currently taking prednisone for a condition, does that mean it was useless to get vaccinated? We did ask a doctor whether if he should get vaccinated or not. His doctor mentioned it wasn’t mentioned in the trial studies and he didn’t have an answer other than to say to ramp down before taking..which he did tapered down to 30mg from 60.
Studies show on a live vaccine not to take steroids. The covid vaccine is not live.

[www.arthritis-sa.com]

[www.arthritis.org]

[www.paho.org]

How does Benadryl tamper with your immune? The dr gave me Benadryl after my first dose?
[creakyjoints.org]
Mentions it could mask skin reactions:
“ Even if you typically use allergy medications like Benadryl before getting your biologic infusion, it’s a good idea not to do so before your COVID-19 vaccine. The CDC recommends against this because antihistamines do not prevent anaphylaxis, and their use may mask “cutaneous” (skin) symptoms, which could lead to a delay in the diagnosis and management of anaphylaxis.

“The first symptoms of allergic reactions to vaccines often involve the skin, such as with hives,” says Dr. Hudelson. “So if you have an allergic reaction and you’ve already taken Benadryl ahead of time, you’ll block the histamine and we’re not going to see that skin rash. The allergic reaction will have progressed a lot further along when you start to show symptoms, so we won’t be able to treat it with epinephrine as quickly as we might want to.”



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2021 11:55AM by susan.d.

The recommendation to moderate your steroids one has on-board on the day of, just prior, and right after a vaccination for a couple days, is meant primarily for larger anti-inflammatory level steroid doses which also bring with it the likelihood of more immune system suppression from larger on-going steroid doses.

The drop in dose of prednisone mentioned above from 60mg a day (that's a pretty big dose) to 30mg a day ... will likely help mitigate any suppression to some degree, and it does not necessarily mean that your vaccine will not be effective. Yet as Carey noted, ideally its best to avoid Anti-inflammatory agents around a vaccination whenever possible.

A couple of Motrin or Aleve the night of a vaccine or the next day, doesn't seem to have much, if any, significant impact on these new vaccines according to what, at this point, is still anecdotal research from a long-term study on antibody production from both Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, with apparently initially encouraging results showing robust antibody production from even just the first week to three weeks post-vaccination after the first shot from each of these mRNA vaccines. Of course, we need to await the final data and conclusions that will be released sometime near end of this year to have a definitive answer ... but these new vaccines certainly look encouraging!

In general though, mild-to-moderate true 'endogenous physiologic' dosing of basic steroids like Hydrocortisone (in a range or 5mg to 25mg per day) , or even the moderately stronger prednisone that at 4 times stronger equivalency compared to standard bio-identical Hydrocortisone (i.e. 20 mg of Hydrocortisone is equal to 5mg a day of prednisone), and these very mild physiologic doses which are almost always used for replacement doses when a persons own endogenous daily adrenal gland production of the essential hormone cortisol is not functioning optimally.

Bottom-line such mild replacement doses of steroids should not have any significant suppressive effect on a vaccine.

However, I can't so vouch for 30mg to 60 mg of prednisone a day and it's potential impact on a vaccine. It's certainly the right thinking to reduce such larger dosing a couple days before and right after getting a vaccine preferably with a slow taper if possible. Daily prednisone at 30mg to 60mg a day is equal to 120mg of daily hydrocortisone for 30mg of prednisone, and with 60mg/day of prednisone equaling a full 240mg of daily hydrocortisone which are both pretty strong steroid doses per day at such truly 'supra-physiologic' anti-inflammatory doses.

Shannon

He didn’t go from 60 straight to 30mg. He ramped down 10mg a week and took the vaccine Sunday while on 20mg for two days. Today he will reduce to 10mg a day and by the time he stops next Friday and gets the second dose in 3 weeks 3 days the half life of the prednisone would be gone. Hopefully he will get partial benefits from the second dose. Moderna vaccine after the first dose to those over 65 have an approximate 86.4% effectiveness while compared to Pfizer (50s%) at age >65.

[i.postimg.cc]

Thanks Carey for your warning. I talked to two medical doctors today. One said if I had a reaction the first dose, it’s likely I’ll get a worst reaction the second dose. The other person I polled said it’s up in the air but I should alert them upon getting the second dose. I’m hoping I don’t need an epi pen. My last tachy triggered a type 2 MI. I’m trying to avoid another hospital admission.

Shannon- I feel not enough info is out there at the moment since the vaccines are new and we are all lab rats. Regarding taking pain meds, there are differences in opinion:
[www.healthline.com]. Doesn’t recommend it. But I’m sure if I google enough I will find a different opinion.

So the question isn’t (to get back to NLAMA post) whether to self medicate with an epi pen (likely to trigger af in some), or take various of drugs (pain meds, Benadryl etc) prior in the hope of avoiding a reaction--the question should be does anyone know yet? Would you get a worst reaction on dose 2? Not enough studies were made for a proper answer.

I stopped my Immune booster beta glucan until after my last booster because I don’t know if it will effect the effectiveness of the vaccine. It does help me recover faster from bronchitis and pneumonia. However beta glucan shows promising to boost up your immune system for covid19.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

I have been taking it since 2014. Beta glucan is a cancer treatment in Japanese oncologist practices.
[www.amazon.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2021 02:57PM by susan.d.

Quote
susan.d
Good to know. Thanks. In that case I’ll just risk an over zealous nurse from giving me an epi pen if my reaction returns the second time. If given epi, I speculate I run the risk of getting af.

I said nothing about epi. Epi is totally different from steroids in that it has no effect on the immune system. If you want to bring your own EpiPen that's up to you, but why spend money when they have them for free and it's extremely unlikely you'd need one anyway?

And by no means should anyone try to premedicate with an EpiPen. You really, REALLY don't want to do that and it will accomplish absolutely nothing other than making you feel like you're running from a hungry bear. Epinephrine is just another word for adrenaline, and that's exactly what it's going to feel like -- a big, huge dose of adrenaline.

Honestly, I don't understand why allergic reactions are such a big topic here when these vaccines have shown no particular tendency to produce allergic reactions. I can't imagine this thread happening around any other vaccine, even the ones more likely to cause allergic reactions.

I originally thought a dose of prednisone and Benadryl would help prevent a reaction. I’m allergic to CatScan contrast and was given this combo beforehand each time. Same with chemo everyone had a dose.

I read one of the future vaccines still in testing may require premedication

Carey you are right. Subject shifted from epi which I would never take. I just had a dental appointment yesterday and my dentist knows to give me linocaine plain without epi. I wanted info on precautions one can take for the second dose to prevent epi if one had a reaction during the first dose.

Shannon, what about strong ginger tea? I use it as an anti-inflammatory. I have an auto-immune condition that sets of my Afib and am concerned about the COVID vaccine. Waiting for more documented side effects to be recorded, etc.

Lois

Quote
LSulka
Shannon, what about strong ginger tea? I use it as an anti-inflammatory. I have an auto-immune condition that sets of my Afib and am concerned about the COVID vaccine. Waiting for more documented side effects to be recorded, etc.

Strong ginger tea will have absolutely no effect on the COVID vaccine. The two are perfectly fine together. And there's no reason to suspect the vaccine will have any effect on your auto-immune condition either unless other vaccines have had an effect.

In 2019 I did have flu symptoms and was treated with an anti-bacterial for about a week following a flu shot. They say it wasn't the flu, so what was it.

Quote
LSulka
In 2019 I did have flu symptoms and was treated with an anti-bacterial for about a week following a flu shot. They say it wasn't the flu, so what was it.

Who knows? There are all sorts of diseases that cause flu-like symptoms. Whatever it was, they were treating you with antibiotics so they didn't believe it was viral. If you're thinking you caught the flu from the vaccine, that's impossible. You cannot get flu from the flu vaccine. (Or COVID from the COVID vaccine.)

Carey - Isn't it true that with the flu vaccine, it takes two weeks to build antibodies for protection... so if during those two weeks, you are exposed to the flu, you could get it? ..especially if your immune system is weakened or impaired.

I believe that's emphasized for those in their more 'senior' years...like 70's and 80's and especially those with known immune system compromise.

Jackie

Quote
Carey
I'm curious why you feel the need to post a warning like this.

Would you also be curious if I suggested people wear a seat belt on the way to get their vaccine?



Traditionally, the risk was about of anaphylaxis was 1.31 (95% CI, 0.90-1.84) per million vaccine doses.

Early data indicates rate of 11.1 per million doses for the Pfizer covid vaccine

8.47 X more likely.

By all means get the vaccine, but make sure those providing it are prepared should something go wrong...

and wear your seat belt... and your N95 mask.

[pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

[www.cdc.gov]

CDC requires 3 available epi pens at each inoculation site.

Jackie, BINGO! I think you may have hit on it. I think after careful reflection that I had some very mild symptoms over the summer, but it just didn't get full blown and when I was given the flu shot it may have caused a case of the flu. Why don't we know more about this? Why isn't more research being done?

Carey, while I have been around for a while, I haven't had a lot of time to spend here. I love the changes that have been made, and wonder what your background is as you seem to have many opinions, and that's fine, just like to know more about the person who is talking and what they have expertise in, etc.

I really appreciate it when posters post their sources.

Quote
Jackie
Carey - Isn't it true that with the flu vaccine, it takes two weeks to build antibodies for protection... so if during those two weeks, you are exposed to the flu, you could get it?

Yes, for sure. Same with COVID.

But for LSulka's question, it's still impossible that the flu vaccine could have caused flu. Besides, it doesn't sound like Sulka had flu at all.

Quote
LSulka
Carey, while I have been around for a while, I haven't had a lot of time to spend here. I love the changes that have been made, and wonder what your background is as you seem to have many opinions, and that's fine, just like to know more about the person who is talking and what they have expertise in, etc.

I'm an expert on having opinions.

But I do like to think my opinions are informed. If you really want to chat about it send me a private message and we can talk. I doubt if anyone else wants to hear it.

Quote
susan.d
CDC requires 3 available epi pens at each inoculation site.

Indeed they do. But when seconds and minutes count, wouldn't you want to make sure Nurse Sally didn't leave them elsewhere or they're locked in a cabinet but no one knows where the key is.

In the 80s it was "where's the beef"

In the 90s "show me the money"

When getting a vax - "show me the epi pen"

And yes, wear your seatbelt when going to get your vax



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2021 06:48PM by NotLyingAboutMyAfib.

Ask nurse Sally to “show you the epi pen” prior to your jab. Easier than getting a rx for an epi pen since you are not anaphylactic.