Fractal Geometry & Afib

I am wondering if the concept of chaos theory and fractal geometry might be a better way of thinking about Afib than the easier simple linear model we tend to fall back on. I am aways quite amused to think that I actually attended a lecture in San Francisco where Benoit Mamdelbrot, the father of fractals, was speaking in a very thick german about his book which someone from Lucas films, I believe, said he wished he had available since the film makers had been doing fractals for about 5 years previous to the talk. The idea is that there can be order in what appears to be chaos. The often given example is the computer animation of trees on a hillside where the branches seem to be randomly created but the fact is that a single algorithm produces the logically chaotic image using a randomness within certain bounds like the length of a branch. The idea is to find the pattern in a series of events that on the surface do not appear to fit our standard notion of order.

Howie,

I completely agree. I believe that the body is so intelligent, that it can communicate subconsiously to us, if we are open to that concept. I also believe that there is an order to the chaos. It's an order of hierarchy, meaning things are arranged in a graded series. As I posted before, the body has to make decisions, based on the tools (nutrients) at its disposal. Because our diets are so varied, from day to day, however, that wouldn't seem to be the real problem, especially in leiu of the fact, that there is such a predictive pattern of so many AFers here. Mine's not so predictable, though. Here's some questions and thoughts to ponder.

If we have fibrosis, then why aren't we in constant AF or flutter?
Magnesium levels could have dropped far below normal levels, and couldn't be restored rapidly enough, by diet alone, hence supplementation helping a number of posters here.
The same with any mineral, such as molybdenum, in my case, which was extremely low, but it could be copper or zinc, for others.
The circadian rhythm having something to do with the predictive patterns, and that being a problem with melatonin via its precursor, tryptophan, which also makes serotonin, and is the orchestra leader of all the neurotransmitters, and I was below range here, as well.
Thinking in terms of electricity, and how a neutral wire malfuntion could cause lights to flicker, occasionally, such as what just happened at my home. What would the neutral wire in the body be, if there is one? Copper is a very good conductor of electricity, but all the minerals conduct electrical currents at varying levels.
Free glutamate buildup in the body, such as the case with Fran's problem, as well as others.
Hydration habits, and its effects on antidiuretic hormones or aldosterone.

The list in infinite. Questions leading to more questions.

Richard

Questions leading to questions, yes, but i think we are starting to ask better questions.
Peggy

Howie:

My EP thinks the pattern (wavelets) generated from an atrial focus is random and once it reaches the right amount for that individual it creates AFib. (not just six, but varies by individual) He spent some time during his fellowship watching such data from instrumented dogs.

Perhaps the pattern is fractal but how would one create such a model? I'm not even aware of a simpler linear model so I'm in the dark!

I didn't ask him how the pattern, once established, would then disappear. Some of us remain in AFib for over 24 hours as if something else besides ramdomness has to first process.

Any thoughts?
Anton

The randomness may be just the confusing factor that makes the intrinsic cause appear chaotic when actually the nature of the whole function is being governed by a condition or set of conditions with a hidden order. Perhaps the solution can only come from trial and error like Edison trying thousands of materials including elephant hair for an electric light bulb filament. Serendipity and anecdotal evidence like the discussions here may suddenly lead to something like the solving of simultaneous equations where someone sees the proverbial light bulb go on.

Anton,

Interesting since I often feel (most days once or twice) my heart start to 'go off on one' for a few seconds i.e. 2 - 5 secs of quick palpitations both regular and irregular and mixed (a real jumble); and I have often pondered that maybe enough wavelets are not formed (maybe my heart needs a high number of them - 7 or 8?) so the palp resolves and does not progress to AF. Maybe such runs of palps only give me AF when ALL the necessary factors are in place - including for me it being the middle of the night! Maybe most of my episodes of palps would set another AFr requiring six or less wavelets off into AF every time.......

Mike F.