regular timing of afib - accumulation or depeletion of something

PC posted a thread a few months ago about the timing of his bouts that were regular and constant. i went back to my diary and confirmed my suspicion about my bouts - they were indeed pretty regular, about every 3-5 days or so for long hours. PC and others thought it might be an accumulation of something or a depletion of something that would trigger a bout on a timely and constant basis. in my case, it appears that no matter what i tried, more medication, magnesium water, etc. had no effect at stopping these bouts.

PC, anymore thoughts or research into this insight - anyone else with this regular pattern and have you tried something that helped to reduce these episodes?

Gregg,

Like you I've kept a journal and find that I'm very regular... every 2-3 days I go into A-fib, stay in A-fib for 2-3 days and then into sinus-rythym for 2-3 days.

I've tried to identify a trigger to no avail. Also, like you I've tried more medication, magnesium water, etc. but these seem to have no effect at stopping these bouts.

Not long ago I posted on this board how so many seem to believe in herbs & meds. But it's so subjective, varying with each individual as well as many assumptions made without any way to confirm. No doubt--this is a mysterious malady. (for me)

Help!

This won't help much, by way of answering your question, but my thinking is that it's almost as if the body tries to keep a certain homeostasis for periods of time. It realizes that it's in short supply of something, so it takes what it has and uses it in a certain rhythmic pattern. Something like a hierarchy of importance. Have you noticed any other patterns, such as headaches, indigestion, muscle cramps in your legs, etc., on the days that your heart is in rhythm? Anything unusual? Maybe it changes each time. Like for 1 day you may have a headache, the 2nd day you might have muscle aches, the 3rd day, you might have indigestion, and the 4th day AF. Other things to think about are changes in eyesight, hearing, balance, back aches, concentration, irritability, clumsiness, etc. Keep track of all patterns, as they could possibly tell you a simple nutrient or two that might be lacking. Food for thought.

Richard

Nope, none of the symptoms you mention (and beyond) on days when I'm in normal sinus-rythym. Feel great. Even on the days in A-fib i feel good. Only way for me to know is to stop and feel my pulse.

Migraines, muscle cramps in my legs and indigestion at night used to cluster with bouts of vagal afib every two to three nights on a regular basis. The migraine and bad neck pain would occur late into an episode and last into the next day.
Carol

I have had the same thoughts. Sometimes I go months and months without afib, and then I start experiencing little flutters again. The flutters seem to build up over several days and then I go into afib. I am convinced that my body has depleted something. Magnesium, by the way, does help me and I am currently looking at potassium issues because I frequently get dehydrated from sweating while working out or doing outside yard work. NO matter how much water I drink, you can't keep up sometimes.

I should also add that my pattern has been cycles of several days of hyperactivity, almost manic behavior (like today) - go, go, go - and then suddenly crashing with afib at night and exhaustion from lack of sleep for several days.

Does this pattern sound familiar to anyone else?

Are there other afibbers, who tend to be calm on the outside, but very active, intense, super observant, live wires on the inside? Is there a personality type for afibbers?

Carol

Gregg-

Since my flutter ablation (1 month+) I've been back with my old AFib which is cyclic in it's own irregular way. Much llike yours, lately it averages 1.5 days AFib to 3 days NSR-- the EP blames it on the atria's characturistic: The wavelets (see EP's post on these- wavelets of Moe still a popular theory) are occurring in the atria a lot of the time but he thinks that once in a while there are enough of them to trigger the Afib and sustain it for a long period. Further, the number of wavelets is not just 6 to trigger; it could be more or less dependant on the individual. [I didn't ask him the cause for the wavelets but irritability is usually blamed]

Just a theory based on observations made during his training and I find it less than satisfactory although his intelligence, education and training make him one to listen to.

Anton

Gregg,

The beat (irregularly irregular that is) goes on. My episodes have increased in frequency but have shortened in duration. However, the fact that I can change what would otherwise be pretty much a repeating pattern tells me that we can control it to some extent.

I know the general habit is to look to our diets for the triggers, but it is much more complex than that. Even if you do have a good culprit in mind, there are so many interactions operating at a given time. The chronology between the "trigger" and the episode alone makes the task daunting. There are also diurnal changes wrt hormones and vagal tone. Then there are meds to take into consideration. We're not lab rats. We have a life and there are so many variables at work.

But there certainly does seem to be something that is gradually being depleted between episodes. Given a predisposition to AF (high vagal tone or high stress state), my candidate is low intracellular K mediated by excessive aldosterone. Hans feels that it might be cardiac inflammation caused by excessive aldosterone.

But no one really knows.

PC

Carol,

"Are there other afibbers, who tend to be calm on the outside, but very active, intense, super observant, live wires on the inside?"

COUNT ME IN!!

Gregg,

"Further, the number of wavelets is not just 6 to trigger; it could be more or less dependant on the individual."

Interesting idea. It might be that since I get a lot of ectopy (every day) but AF relatively infrequently (3 times in the last 4 years - last episode almost a year ago) that my atria 'require' more waves than average..............

PC,

"my candidate is low intracellular K mediated by excessive aldosterone. Hans feels that it might be cardiac inflammation caused by excessive aldosterone."

Again, thought provoking. I have on this forum mentioned several times my belief as regards my abusive childhood, delayed puberty (17 yrs of age) and excessive underarm sweating (read non-smelly salty water) problems from age 17-19......... surely aldosterone et al were tied in with that little lot somewhere........ maybe my anxiety as an adult continues hand-in-hand with anomolies in my endocrine system including some subtle andosterone inbalance.

Mike F.

Hi Carol

That described me to a T. Seem relaxed on the outside but always busy, especially the brain. It never knew when to switch off and always picking up from external stimuli. My diet has calmed this down. At least I can switch off when I go to bed now. Infact this calming down - though I am still busy is a godsend to me.

A lot of afibbers are described as type A personality. I have a touch of this, but am much more intraverted and artistic than an average type A.

Hi, Fran,
Yes, I am introverted and artistic, too - paint and draw, when I am not writing.

I have been told that I am highly senstive to external stimuli - have been all my life - and see, hear, and smell things that most people don't notice. It is a pleasure or gift to have this extra dimension, but I wonder if people with this make - up don't burn energy faster and possibly deplete stores of magnesium, and other essential chemicals faster than less intense people.

For example, I wonder if the brain uses up magnesium and other vital nutrients in intense functioning??

My mind goes all the time. I am almost a compulsive reader. Every room in the house has books in it and I read throughout the day. I have an insatiable curiosity. I am trying to back off from reading too much. My husband says that I don't give my mind a rest. I have to work at not using my mind!

Since starting magnesium "therapy," I have found that my overactive mind turns off when I go to bed and I can fall off to sleep quickly. This is new for me. It must be the calming effect of magnesium.

Also, as a result of your fine example, I am becoming very aware of including and increasing vegetables and fruit at every meal. Yesterday, I was asked to join some friends for a birthday luncheon at a small "country gourmet" restaurant. There wasn't one thing on the menu that had vegetables or fruit. No salads. No fresh anything. I was stymied. No one else noticed and ordered "luscious looking"sandwiches gooey with melted cheese and processed meat with nitrates and, of course,bread; soup with sausage containing nitrates and beans; pasta casseroles and desserts that were basically sugar and flour. I was stuck. Restaurant eating can be impossible. Small restaurants, especially, have to use food that doesn't spoil easily, which typically means the use of processed, preserved food.

When I got home I was developing a headache and had an apple to try to counterbalance the junk. I ate nothing but swiss chard, grapes (old domestic variety growing wild on the edge of our field), pumpkin seeds, organic chicken, squash and watermelon for supper. My tummy sang! It said "thank you."

This "Mindful Eating" is the new way for me.

Carol

Carol

We are of such similar make up. I suppose you have very fast metabolism too. I have long thought that my brain uses just as much energy as physical exercise. In Hans book there is reference to people with AF who do brain work - could this be a clue - in depleting minerals etc? When I am working on a difficult report I need to eat throughout to keep the fuel up or I can get lost and go off on tangents. But then it could be dyslexia. It seems I have this disorder but it was missed due to higher than average IQ which determination has served me to overcome (but probably still obvious in my spelling and phrases if I don't spell or grammer check).

As well as Mg the brain needs loads of glucose. But I have found that glucose producing starches such as flour etc only serve to give momentary sharpness with big sugar crashes - foggy thinking - and then ongoing focus problems. So protein, veggies, fruit and fat is a must to keep this steady.

I hate being asked out to eat but I love socialising so I always eat before I go (especially meat). Then if there is nothing I can eat at least I have got food in me to keep me going. The last time I was invited out it was to the nearby hydroponicum (they even grow bananas there - the most northerly bananas in the world). They use no pesticids or anything, but do grow from nutrient enriched water. For me their meat courses were off the menu, but I knew that I could eat their salads (without dressing) and veggies. When my big mixed salad arrived it came with three big wedges of fresh cooked bread - my biggest downfall as I love it but it sets me off on a binge. So I decided as it was a special day I would eat the bread. I munched through two slices after eating my salad and picked up the third when I saw IT. The biggest fattest green caterpillar edging up the side of the crust. Now this takes paleo eating to the extreme. All I could think was how many had I eaten in the salad as I had not checked it. So much for eating out.

I like your phrase - mindful eating.

Fran

Fran,
What a hoot! I hope everyone on this forum saw your post and laughed, as I did.

I think I will associate that big fat caterpillar with bread every time that I am tempted to indulge in that yummy, moist, chewy, crusty stuff...oh.

I find that I sometimes have sugar cravings when in the midst of heavy duty analyzing and writing (left brain), but that like you, it soon makes my thinking foggy and brings on a crash. I don't handle sugar well. (The brain needs glucose to function well, so there may be a scientific basis to our sugar cravings)

Onward with Mindful Eating.
Carol

Yes, the caterpillar story was an out loud laugh for me, as well. I guess I'm fortunate, to not have much of a craving for bread or caterpillars. In case you ever get a hankering for caterpillars, however, never eat the black, hairy ones.

Richard

Perfectly nutritious things caterpillars are I'm sure! Tuck in and enjoy!

Mike F.

Count me in with the overactive brain crew! My profession is a lot of mind work, also. And a lot of sitting in front of a computer. I wonder if afibbers spend more time in front of a computer than others? Bad radiation effects helping heart arrhythmias to happen, maybe?

I've had a weird few days. Forgot to take supplements, progesterone, AND cut out tomatoes just to see the effect. My digestion has quieted down and I haven't had any ectopics for a few days. Has anyone else tried to cut out tomatoes and had a positive result?

I've heard of quite a few people who can't tolerate veggies from the nightshade family - of which tomatoes are one. If you find that tomatoes are bad for you it may be wise to cut out aubergines and courgettes etc and see if that helps too. I think that peppers fall in this catagory too. But you better check.

Fran