Back to the drawing board

Well, so much for having arrested the afib. Not sure what brought it on, but yesterday afternoon i ate a largeish meal - fried up some liver, and it tasted so good i ate it all right up - felt sleepy, lay on the couch and dozed off, and woke up in afib. Lasted all evening, went to sleep with it, woke up this morning in blessed NSR. Don't know what time i got up to use the bathroom, but i still had it then.

On the bright side, it was a very mild episode, the most benign i have ever had. It was the afib that woke me up, but it didn't have some of the more distressing attributes. That feeling of wrongness was present, but my heart wasn't thumping as hard as it usually does in afib. I had to check my pulse to be sure that was what was happening. In fact, my pulse was hard to find, both at the wrist and the neck. Once found, though, it was clearly arrhythmic. I felt a little short of breath, but not dizzy and not sweaty, and didn't have to urinate any more often than usual. I didn't feel panicked, either. Annoyed, disappointed, but not particularly frightened.

I wonder if the fear involved could have been making my symptoms so much worse during previous episodes? Or was this really just a milder kind of afib, due perhaps to the nutritional measures i have been taking? Anybody got ideas about this?

Peggy

Dear Peggy,
You describe the kind of afib "break throughs" that I now occasionally have while taking 800 mg. of magnesium glycinate a day. The break throughs are usually the result of either emotional or eating stress.* The symptoms are far less pronounced. In fact, most of the time all I experience is a stronger, more pronounced nsr. It only occasionally becomes irregular and I usually can sleep through it. It was the crazy, wild and strong irregularity of classic afib that used to keep me awake.

I tend to think that no matter how accustomed we afibbers have become to afib attacks, at some level of consciousness, there is a degree of anxiety and panic that accompanies each and every attack.

*Eating heavily and/or richly and then lying down would tend to precipitate an attack.

Carol

Breakthroughs, is it? 800 mg Carlson's chelated Mg is what i am taking as well. Hmmmmm. Wonder what i would be having if i discontinued or halved the Mg dose? I may try that just to see. Or maybe not.

Carol, explain this to me, please, as you see it. How come the symptoms are so reduced? What is the Mg doing, exactly? This is still far preferable to previous episodes, but why the difference? Would more Mg make the situation better, or worse?

Has anybody here taken even larger Mg doses? What happened?

Peggy

Peggy--

I agree with Carol that you had two likely triggers: first, a large meal; second, lying down afterwards. I avoid eating large meals and avoid lying down right afterwards. It takes about three hours for the stomach to empty, so if a meal is of any significant size, especially late in the evening, wait before you lie down. This has not been an absolute rule for me--I have been able in recent months to eat and to lie down afterwards, without any ill effects. For me, lying on my left side tends to be problematical.

I also have no doubt that magnesium reduces the sensitivity to and the severity of LAF episodes.

Carol and Michael - I'm sure you are right about eating and lying down after, others have mentioned the same things right along, but what is puzzling me is that these things were not triggers for me before i started taking the 800 mg doses of magnesium. Neither was msg, which i got 2 minor episodes out of just recently before giving it up at last.

What is the magnesium doing that suddenly makes these things triggers when they didn't used to be triggers for me?

I'm grateful for the reduction in severity of the episode, it was so mild i think if i had been working a job i could have stayed at work and ignored it, but these triggers have never affected me before. I'm apprehensive that other things may now be triggers as well that didn't affect me previously. For example neither drink nor exercise has ever been a trigger for me and i'd hate for them to start being so.

Oh, well. I will adjust to it whatever it is, i suppose. Just grumbling. I've never had an easy time with change.

Peggy

Peggy --- I wouldn't necessarily blame it on the magnesium. In my own case, I had no benefit from magnesium citrate, but on the advice of many on this board switched to mag. glycinate which has definitely lessened the amount of PACs, flutters, etc. that I used to have and lessened the severity and duration of episodes, but alas, not the frequency of episodes. I have been taking 400 mg. each morning and am thinking of going to 600. You might try cutting the mag. down to 400 mg. per day and see what happens .

Thanks, Mary, i think i will do just that. I still wish i had an explanation of what it is that the magnesium is doing that causes this change. I think if there is 'blame' to be placed, it rests on the magnesium, it being the thing i have changed. If i have to have afib episodes i would rather have this kind, it is far less distressing, but of course the ideal here is not at all.
Peggy

Peggy,

Welcome to the roller coaster world of afib "got it undercontrol/whoops, I guess I don't" management.

Take this setback with a grain of salt. Continue to do the healthy things you have implemented and be reassured by your success and encouraged by your setbacks. These setbacks happen to everyone of us. And they just remind us that we need to be vigilante and remain steadfast in our efforts with our own health.

I too get very disapointed when I go for weeks without a problem, or think I finally found the right mix of things and WAMMO, afib. But I do know this.... I am WAY healthier than I was a year ago and am bound and determined to stay that way!

I wish you continued success!

Joe

I have been pondering what Peggy said about the effectiveness long-term of magnesium supplements. I have also noticed that at first magnesium was very useful in eliminating PACs as well as any propensity to LAF. But the PACs seem to come back now and then as well as (for me) a minute or two of an irregular rhythm which might turn into LAF.

I am thinking that we all assume that our uptake of magnesium is a constant process. And that our requirement for magnesium supplementation remains at a constant level. This may not be so. It may be that when we first start taking magnesium supplements, our bodies take it up strongly and rapidly. Once we have established a certain level in our blood and tissues, perhaps it is not so easily absorbed and distributed as it first was. Also, when we start taking magnesium we may be recovering from upsetting episodes of LAF so we are generally being very good to ourselves, eating well, going to bed early and generally keeping our stress levels low. That is, keeping our magnesium requirements low.

Finally, it may be that we need to take magnesium in the highest quality supplements. I have been taking KAL 400 tablets of magnesium glycinate and making and drinking Waller water on occasion. I am planning to try another, higher-rated (here on the bulletin board) brand of magnesium glycinate. I am going to drink more Apollinaris water than Pellegrino (Apollinaris has twice the magnesium content). I am going towatch my diet more carefully all of the time. And I am going to reduce my intake of calcium-rich dairy products. No more milk in my tea. Less cheese. That may well make things much better.

Joe - Thanks for the encouragement, i appreciate it Good luck with whatever you are studying for [mentioned above but i forget exactly].

Michael in San Fran - Mg uptake not constant, even with the same intake? Maybe. Wouldn't i notice some diarrhea?

Mg requirement changing over time due to god knows what? Maybe.

Reduce calcium intake? Hmmmmm. Now that is something i have control over.

Food for thought, all that.

Any other views on this?

Peggy

Greetings Michael
I noted that you are trying to reduce your calcium intake also switching mineral water to Apollinaris . This link might be useful as Noah's and Adobe are high in mag but low in Ca as opposed to Apollinaris. Both I beleive are California based. In the Uk the best common one I found is Badoit available in Tesco.
s[www.mgwater.com]
Happy drinking
Chris H

Only me!!
Sorry Michael gave a duff link try:
[www.mgwater.com]
Opps
Chris H

High levels of magnesium cause loose stools. I took 900 mg metagenics mag glycinate and had terrible bowel intolerance. Per advise from this BB I cut back to 6oo mg and added 1500 mg apple pectin and 1500 mg taurine and solved the problem completely. I have since added 260 mg of cardiovascular mag taurate with no problems. I am in mild chronic afib and the mag seems to help with strength and endurance.

Tom L

Peggy,
I take KAL brand magnesium glycinate , the one that is calcium free. This works for me.

I even sailed through a very stressful six day Thanksgiving period, with alot of hard work, many diverse personalities and generation gaps to cope with, and some bad off- eating, and very little sleep, WITHOUT ANY AFIB. I was sure that it would strike, but it didn't! I took a bit more magnesium in the pm , figuring that under those stressful circumstances my body was using up magnesium faster.

Do you divide your doses to 400 mg. am and 400 pm and take it with food?

Have you read Mildred Seelig's, The Magnesium Factor, which is in paperback? She explains how among other benefits, magnesium calms the body. That is where you will get answers to your questions about magnesium. A local library or book store should be able to get it for you.

To my mind there is a definite mind-body interrelationship to afib. So, magnesium calms nerves, muscles, chemical responses, which in turn, effect or calm our emotional/ mental life. Conversely, we must be attentive to our psyches - protect them, nurture them, so that they don't aggravate our physical bodies. It is a two - way thing. Addressing one without the other is probably not going to work.

I find that taking fifteen or twenty minutes out to sit alone and relax my body, from the head down, one part at a time, does wonders. It also makes me aware of how tense certain parts (neck and shoulders) are. You can also do this while sitting in the car waiting for someone, sitting in the movies, watching t.v. , sometimes even while sitting with friends.

Walking and visually taking in "wild" (man - free) nature restores calm in me instantly. I develop a heightened awareness to ordinary/extraordinary things in nature, when I am out there by myself that take me out of myself to something greater than myself. It might be a glowing, vibrant green feather moss growing on a tree stump, tiny branches on saplings that glimmer in the late sun so that their woodiness disappears, or same size tree fungi that spiral all the way from the base to the top of a tall birch trunk like steps for fairies!

Breathing deeply helps alot too. That helps loosen up the diaphragm, and unblock the midsection of the body, which I think is a problematic area for afibbers.

I think that we afibbers tend to be vulnerable, sensitive people.

Carol

Tom L - the Mg runs seem to be completely controlled with me by taking 3g taurine with each 400mg dose of Carlson's Mg glycinate. I think i will cut back to half that dose [of Mg] for a while and see how that goes, then later try increasing back to maybe 600mg. The taurine i am going to continue at this dose, one i found recommended for cholesterol reduction. 6 months from now when i see my doctor again i will know if it worked.

Carol - congratulations on getting thru Thanksgiving with no afib. I too had no trouble with the holiday time itself.
The Carlson's Mg glycinate [they call it chelated Mg] that i take has no calcium in it. I do take it in divided doses, with food.
Carol, are you working? I am retired, living the most stress-free time of my life. You are exactly right about time for relaxation, and the best times of all are to be had in the woods by oneself, or with a dog. Thank you for the book info, i will get it from my local excellent library system.
About sensitivity and vulnerability, i think i am a very sensitive person, but a survivor, in fact a pretty tough cookie considering the stuff i have been thru. I think it likely that the reason i have afib is a combination of a rough life and a poor diet. Now is the time i can start to correct whatever i can.

Peggy

Michael - Be careful with the type of bottled water you drink - one of those you mentioned (if memory serves) is way too high in calcium.
Calcium is excitatory for afibbers.... If you are able to get Noah's water out there - it has natural magnesium from the Adobe Springs - it would be the best and most excellent choice for you.

An explanation of magnesium deficiency says that it may take months or even years to sustain the cellular level of magnesium needed to maintain the health without symptoms - as in afib, muscle twitches, etc.

So, give the magnesium time. My experiment began in early July this past year - where I doubled the dose of magnesium glycinate (Metagenics) and was able to decrease breakthrough arrhythmia from every day and everyother day to twice a month and down to zero a month - and holding.
Even after the ablation, I'm taking 600 mg. Mag glycinate a day and have no breakthroughs.

Magnesium relaxes blood vessels, muscles (including heart muscle tissue) helps prevent clotting, and a whole list of other benefits.

As Tom L. mentions - the magnesium taurate product from CardioVascular research is a great product. I'm using half and half now and find it to be very calming. Taurine is important for the electrical system of the body.

Bowel intolerance is the only issue with increased amounts of magnesium unless one has a history of kidney disease. Don't take elevated amounts without knowing that your kidneys have normal function. This typically shows up in one's annual blood test at physical time.

Jackie

Hello, Jackie. as usual, thanx for words of wisdom. What is bugging me is that these things, msg and eating largeish meals and lying down soon after, have previously to this not been triggers for me at all, and since starting the Carlson's Mg glycinate 800mg/day in 2 doses with food, all of a sudden they are triggering afib. Granted it is the mildest afib i ever had, why is this happening?
Peggy

Peggy

I'm just wondering how you are so sure that MSG was not a trigger before. I don't know how much you ate before but based on my own experience - I ate it all the time and never knew it was a trigger (it was only by elimination I found out just what it did to me). I believe that by avoiding it we are in a better position to listen to the body and become more sensitive. I think that is because MSG has to get to certain levels to trigger an attack. When eating it all the time the body is fighting it, but every so often it can't do it any more and BAM - AF hits. When we begin to avoid it the body becomes desensitized so a tiny bit becomes a trigger and we can feel the difference immediately.

Hope that makes sense.

Fran

Peggy,
I do free lance, independent research and writing. I am more demanding on myself, set higher goals and standards, than if I worked for someone else! I conceive the ideas for my projects and carry them out from start to finish. The work itself is scholarly, i.e., very detail intensive with copious citations and that sort of thing. It requires concentration and long hours of work with no breaks. I have a hard time backing off and taking a break from my work, because I become so involved. I am convinced that mental activity of this sort uses up magnesium.

Taking taurine with magnesium is very important. I should have mentioned that before.

It is hard for me to equate supplementing with magnesium with your recent afib. Maybe it would have happened anyway.

Carol

Fran, the reason i think it was not a trigger before was this: from November '02 thru March '03 i lived with my brother and cooked for him, and there was a seasoning salt he really liked [and i did too], especially on baked chicken. It had msg in it, and i used it a lot on everything, and i never got so much as a tremor from it, let alone an actual episode.

Then i moved into an apartment of my own, and did not have a bottle of this stuff in my kitchen. Last month he brought me a care package containing 2 bottles of it. I promptly fixed myself some baked chicken, and seasoned it with our favorite. The next day at my volunteer job at the library, i suddenly felt that nasty arrhythmic feeling. I sat down and took deep, even breaths, and it went away again in just a few minutes, and i went back to work shelving books. Well, that was an isolated incident, and may not have had anything to do with the season salt, i said to myself. I didn't use it again for a while.

Then a few days later i fixed the same dish again, and sure enough had a few minutes of afib the next day. Now once is an isolated incident, but twice is a dam habit, that's what i think. I got rid of the season salt, and had no more trouble.

What you say does make sense, though, that my system was no longer accustomed to it.

Then too, if i had a dollar for every time i have eaten supper and then drifted off to sleep, usually to wake in a little while and stay up until the wee small hours, i'd have cash enough to pay for health insurance. Never got afib out of doing that until night before last. I didn't like it much, and still don't. I had this afib thing all figured out, and now it has changed up on me, drat, dag rabbit, and doggone it all. Grrrrrr. Oh well, i'll live thru it.

Carol - That sounds like an ideal job. You are absolutely right that when you work for yourself you work much harder than you would do for wages. I have done both and i know that is true.

You may be right that the culprit is not the magnesium. It seems the rules have changed, and i am going to have to figure out the new ones. Its too bad and its real sad, and i have just got to cope with it, so i might as well stop complaining about it.

Peggy