A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium

Thanks, Colin, for this very important reminder about the Vitamin K2… in the Menaquinone 7 form… aka K2 MK7.

The lead PhD researchers on K2 MK7 are Cees Vermeer and Leon Schurgers (University of Maastricht, Netherlands) starting with the classic: The Rotterdam Study from 2004 found increased intake of Vitamin K2 from dietary sources significantly reducing the incidence of arterial calcification and the risk of CHD mortality by 50% as compared to low dietary vitamin K2 intake. Conversely, dietary vitamin K1 had no effect.
[www.plthealth.com]

There is also an online presentation by Dr. Shurgers on MK7 and several interviews with Richard A. Passwater, PhD from a number of years ago when this topic was in the spotlight that give the important highlights of why Menaquinone 7 is critically important.
[wholefoodsmagazine.com]
[menaq7.com]


Lack of Vitamin K2 causes calcium to fail to be deposited in bones where it belongs and to be deposited instead in arteries, aorta, soft tissues including muscle, breast, kidneys and in heel spurs.
A protein called osteocalcin transports calcium to bone. Vitamin K2(menaquinone-7) is used to solidify this calcium into the bone matrix. When Vitamin K2 is lacking the calcium remains in the blood and ends up getting deposited in the walls of arteries and other sites which is very undesirable. Thus Vitamin K2 becomes a critical nutrient for both bone and arteries.
Cees Vermeer, Laviena Braam et al Vitamin K supplementation: A simple way to bone and cardiovascular health, AgroFOOD industry hi-tech, Nov/Dec 2003 17-20
Schurgers LJ et al Oral Anticoagulant treatment: friend or foe in cardiovascular disease? Blood.2004;104(10):3231-3232

Quoting from a recent presentation on this topic:

Just as important as vitamin D3 is taking vitamin K2! Taking Vitamin D without vitamin K could actually be harmful to your health!

When it comes to calcium metabolism, vitamins D and K work together. Both play important roles. Vitamin D gets calcium into your blood and Vitamin K gets it to the bones and prevents the calcium from accumulating in your arteries, kidneys or heart.

You don't want rogue calcium going to the wrong places, causing joint stiffness or arterial plaque. Vitamin K2 ensures that your body uses calcium properly.

[www.westonaprice.org]

[purathrive.com]

[My comment: keep in mind that, ultimately, what this all means for afibbers is that supplementation with Vitamin D tends to liberate calcium and in addition to the adverse deposition as soft-tissue calcifications, the circulating calcium can overwhelm magnesium - especially if magnesium intake is not optimal... or there is a fundamental absorption issue meaning that your IC Mg is low in spite of supplementation. ]


Thromb Haemost. 2008 Oct;100(4):593-603.
Matrix Gla-protein: the calcification inhibitor in need of vitamin K.
Schurgers LJ1, Cranenburg EC, Vermeer C.
Abstract
Among the proteins involved in vascular calcium metabolism, the vitamin K-dependent matrix Gla-protein (MGP) plays a dominant role. Although on a molecular level its mechanism of action is not completely understood, it is generally accepted that MGP is a potent inhibitor of arterial calcification. Its pivotal importance for vascular health is demonstrated by the fact that there seems to be no effective alternative mechanism for calcification inhibition in the vasculature. An optimal vitamin K intake is therefore important to maintain the risk and rate of calcification as low as possible. With the aid of conformation-specific antibodies MGP species in both tissue and the circulation have been detected in the healthy population, and significant differences were found in patients with cardiovascular disease (CVD). Using ELISA-based assays, uncarboxylated MGP (ucMGP) was demonstrated to be a promising biomarker for cardiovascular calcification detection. These assays may have potential value for identifying patients as well as apparently healthy subjects at high risk for CVD and/or cardiovascular calcification and for monitoring the treatment of CVD and vascular calcification.
PMID: 18841280 [Indexed for MEDLINE] •
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Schurgers/Vermeer study [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

------
Thromb Haemost. 2015 May;113(5):1135-44. doi: 10.1160/TH14-08-0675. Epub 2015 Feb 19.
Menaquinone-7 supplementation improves arterial stiffness in healthy postmenopausal women. A double-blind randomised clinical trial.
Knapen MH, Braam LA, Drummen NE, Bekers O, Hoeks AP, Vermeer C1.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

VITAMIN K2 & CALCIUM PAPER, SUPPORTED BY NATTOPHARMA, PUBLISHED IN FRONTIERS IN CARDIOVASCULAR MEDICINE
Feb 6, 2019
Journal publishes paper highlighting Vitamin K2 role in bone and vasculature, completed as part of Norwegian Research Council grant.
[www.nattopharma.com]

Just a few of many studies on this important topic.

Jackie


PS - The importance of K2 MK7 was reviewed here previously… check these posts….

[www.afibbers.org]

[www.afibbers.org]

Great post Jackie.

Another place to learn more is Kate's book on K2.

[www.amazon.com]

PS - Take your K and natto with EVOO.

Menaquinone-7 (MK-7), a member of the vitamin K2 family, performs several functions, all related to its recognised effect on post-translational carboxylation of certain protein-bound glutamate residues. Due to its lipophilic structure MK-7 is soluble in olive oil, so the aim of the present study was to test whether extra-virgin (EV) olive oil enriched with MK-7 significantly increases MK-7 plasma levels and has an effect on osteocalcin and its carboxylation status. Healthy young volunteers (n 12) were administered 20 ml EV olive oil per d for 2 weeks, followed by 2 weeks of the same amount of olive oil enriched with 45 μg and then 90 μg MK-7, with an appropriate washout time in between. Blood was collected and plasma separated in each phase of the study. We found that integration of the diet with EV olive oil alone did not produce any significant variation of MK-7 plasma levels compared with baseline. Supplementation with MK-7-enriched olive oil resulted in a significant and dose-dependent increase in plasma levels. The high dose also significantly increased carboxylated osteocalcin (cOC) and decreased undercarboxylated osteocalcin (ucOC) plasma levels, resulting in a significant increase in the cOC:ucOC ratio. A significant correlation was also found between percentage variation of plasma cOCA:ucOC ratio and increase in plasma MK-7 levels. We conclude that regular consumption of MK-7-enriched olive oil may constitute a valid approach in order to preserve some key biochemical mechanisms controlling bone mineralisation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2020 08:05PM by NotLyingAboutMyAfib.

I would definitely eliminate vitamin D3 in supplement form and focus on magnesium instead. I’m sure you’re aware that taking large doses of vitamin D can induce severe depletion of Mg, hence your afib. Many on this forum complained of increase in ectopics after taking higher dosages (more than 1000ius) of vitamin D3. I would take Mg to bowel tolerance and keep it there for awhile. As far as Vitamin D just get your skin exposed outside in the sun for 30 minutes daily and you should be fine.


[www.sciencedaily.com]

Quote
johnnyS
I would definitely eliminate vitamin D3 in supplement form and focus on magnesium instead. I’m sure you’re aware that taking large doses of vitamin D can induce severe depletion of Mg, hence your afib. Many on this forum complained of increase in ectopics after taking higher dosages (more than 1000ius) of vitamin D3. I would take Mg to bowel tolerance and keep it there for awhile. As far as Vitamin D just get your skin exposed outside in the sun for 30 minutes daily and you should be fine.


[www.sciencedaily.com]

The article J American Osteopathinc Assoc that the sciencedaily summary is extracted from argues that Mg insufficiency can promote and make it difficult to treat Vitamin D deficiency. I don't know where the statement in the sciencedaily summary about Vitamin D supplements increasing a person's calcium levels while they remain Vitamin D deficient comes from. There appears to be nothing about that in the journal article. Note that according to the actual article, Mg deficiency implies Vitamin D metabolite deficiency which in turn implies hypocalcemia and not hypercalcemia.

I have eliminated Vitamin D supplementation and obtain Mg at RDA levels with only slight supplementation (100-200 mg of an absorbable form). It seems based on the article that increased Mg could increase the rate of Vitamin D conversion to active form and subsequently increase absorption of Ca in the gut (from food or supplements), resulting in higher serum ionized Ca with potential cardiovascular implications. Along these lines it would be interesting to know how many who are sensitive to Vitamin D supplements are also sensitive to Mg supplements (I am).

Quote
safib

I have eliminated Vitamin D supplementation and obtain Mg at RDA levels with only slight supplementation (100-200 mg of an absorbable form). It seems based on the article that increased Mg could increase the rate of Vitamin D conversion to active form and subsequently increase absorption of Ca in the gut (from food or supplements), resulting in higher serum ionized Ca with potential cardiovascular implications. Along these lines it would be interesting to know how many who are sensitive to Vitamin D supplements are also sensitive to Mg supplements (I am).

I am..... Too much magnesium or vitamin D supplementation will trigger my Afib.

Quote
safib
Along these lines it would be interesting to know how many who are sensitive to Vitamin D supplements are also sensitive to Mg supplements (I am).

For what it is worth, I am sensitive to oral consumption of calcium with respect to afib. I am not sensitive to Mg, D3, or fish oil, from an afib perspective. I should say, if I don't consume large amounts of Mg, afib presents itself immediately. Last night I was testing pulse wave velocity with a hand held device. I had a couple of PAC's in a 30 second test, so a took another 1.2 grams of Mg (even though I'd taken my normal dose earlier in the day) and the PAC's went away. I realize that others are very different, but this is how my system works.

Other than an Exatest in 2004, the only Ca test I've had is serum. My serum levels since 2014 go are almost all mid-range (9.4) or lower.

Safib and Colindo, 

I am another who is adversely sensitive to Mg (two recent trials again provoked ectopics) and I suppose that in one sense it could also be said that I too am "adversely sensitive to VitD" -- but only, in truth, in the sense that if I have too much Ca intake then an increase in VitD will worsen any ectopics which arise from the Ca. 

In reality, as you know, what I and two other family members find beneficial (ie to work completely) is to have serum VitD high enough to produce normal levels of both serum PTH and Fasting Metabolic Bone Studies while having Ca intakes low enough to eliminate all ectopics and afib (around the pre-dairying, hunter-gatherer, Third World intakes of 300-400mg/day). So it is the Ca, not the VitD, which is the root of the problem.

Steve, I hope so.

I need to avoid both (and am doing so) while I try to get my levels back down and also go for my 2nd ECV.

Once I can stay in NSR with MulTaq for some time, I will focus on weaning down the multaq and then after some time bringing up the D level.

I picked a bad time to go off D but I am sticking to my plan.

[clinicaltrials.gov]

A thought - the omega 3 PUFA curves have that very tight sweet spot. Would you think a heavier person should adjust that number (amount of O3) to fall into the sweet spot? (as you do with D)

Hi everyone,
Like GeorgeN, my heart responds quickly to magnesium supplementation whenever it goes a little wacky. So I take mag glycinate caps throughout the day. I also take D3, 2000 IUs and K2-MK4 120 mcg. daily, sometimes with some Thorne K2-Mk4 drops thrown in... plus fish oils.
And Vit C and other nutrients.
For 5+ years my knees and pelvis have been stiff, and the degree varies depending on how anti-inflammatory my diet's been that day. But lately my pelvis bones ache and my knees are stiffer than ever. I can't figure out why this is so. I did try to reintroduce a small amount of calcium supplement to my days, and always equal it with mag. And maybe this is what my bones need. My heart's not fond of the calcium but my bones ache less. I really don't know what to do. I'm supposed to get knee replacements and x-rays show diminished cartilage, but certainly not bone on bone. I don't have pain with my knees, Just stiffness. It's always been stiffness. I'm 71 yrs, normal weight and eat well and exercise. I can't walk as far as I used to and I walk 50% of the time with a cane. Yes, I probably need the replacements, but I'd sure like to figure this tissue stiffness thing out a little before the first replacement surgery.
I guess I shouldn't expect to have the flexibility of a young person, but there are older people who don't have this degree of rigidity. And it's in the pelvis and knees, not the upper body. I wonder if I took extra/more omega 3 oils, would that make the tissues more flexible? But sometimes I don't think my heart is fond of some parts of the Nordic Naturals I've taken for years (around 1.5 gms/day). Although they certainly are anti-inflammatory. If anyone has any comments, I'd appreciate them.