High Protein Diets/Fran

Hi everybody,

Just ran across an interesting web site, primarily speaking of Atkins, but high protein diets in general and wondered what advocates on this board would think of it. Some of you have studied in depth on this subject and I always value your thoughts. It's just that this approach is so contrary to everything that I have ever been taught.
Some high protein advocates have suggested that the results of the Framingham study were inaccurate in instilling fear in people with regard to the role of high cholesterol and heart disease. Some authorities have claimed that drug companies marketing cholesterol lowering drugs, like statin drugs, have been behind this claim.

Here's the site:

[www.atkinsdietalert.org]

Your thoughts?

Pam

Hi Pam - I think when describing many of the diets that emphasize more protein and fewer carbs, the term "High Protein" is used, and should be clarified.

True, the Atkins Diet is High Protein with less than 20 grams of carbs allowed initially, as I recall. I would classify this diet as "extreme" but there are other modifications of this basic premise that offer a healthier way of eating and one that is closer to healthy.

In the world of metabolism, the basic fact is that the body utilizes (burns for energy production) first, the ready and available blood glucose and then goes for the quick and easy from starchy carbs - if consumed. When not available, the next process is to convert consumed proteins and fats by metabolizing but it takes energy to do that and with no easy-to-get blood glucose from starchy carbs available, it has to go to fat stores to convert the newly consumed protein and fat. Protein and Fat burn stored fat.

It can be argued until doomsday that eating protein and fat increases cholesterol, but the fact is that studies show over and over again, cholesterol is lowered.

Consumption of grains and simple carbohydrates in other than very moderate quantities will eventually bring about the complications of insulin resistance, diabetes, elevated triglycerides and cholesterol. Grains or starchy carbs do no one any good...They are the most addictive of any food. They stimulate the most cravings. They are at the very core of the epidemic in this country of obesity, insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome X and full blown diabetes with all of the complications that disease brings with it.

Traditional medicine argues against diets limiting carbs yet they have no foundation for doing so. Certainly, one only has to observe the population of overweight people to know it doesn't work. Certainly one only has to observe that the American Diabetic Association recommends up to 150 grams of carbs a day and certainly we know once diabetics consume this diet, they are destined to a lifetime of insulin or other drugs.
This just doesn't work.

One has to ask, whose interests are really at stake here? The patient, who can reverse diabetes by following a protein-based diet and and eliminating starchy carbs? Or the doctor who receives nice income from all his diabetic patients trying to lose weight on a diet that doesn't work and from the regular office visits to monitor for insulin levels, etc. It actually borders on being criminally abusive.

The Paleo plan allows no grains yet is very balanced in protein, fat and complex carbs from the vegetable sources. Many posters are doing well with this type diet.

Others like the South Beach Diet are similar with unique variations to allow identification with their title.

What it all really boils down to is understanding that simple carbohydrates - which mean sugar, white flour...all starchy carbs that are immediately metabolized to glucose - are unhealthy in any quantity and in any diet.

Complex carbohydrates take more time to metabolize and go through several steps before converting to glucose and for some individuals, small quantities of grains do not produce insulin resistance. Some, not all.

Each diet plan emphasizes an allowable measure or quantity of complex carbs a day in those that would come from moderate to higher glycemic index rankings. Vegetables of the low glycemic index are usually unlimited and as the index goes up a bit in foods such as tomatoes, carrots, etc. , the quantity is limited due to the higher sugar content.

If you would like to understand why carbs do so much harm, go to
this site and print out this very long (4 part article) but very important report on this very topic. It's shorter than the many books out there and very much to the point. Ron Rosedale MD is the author.

[www.mercola.com]

I write from personal experience on this issue since I have recently turned around my insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome X and have avoided the destructive path to diabetes....thanks to my functional medicine MD - no thanks to my traditional MD's.

Jackie

Hi, Pam
Interesting that you posted on protein based diets, because I took another look at The Serotonin Solution (1996) by Judith Wurtman PH.D, clinical researcher at MIT. In a nutshell, she and researchers elsewhere, discovered that eating protein prevents tryptophan from entering the brain. Serotonin is made from tryptophan and as soon as levels of tryptophan in the brain increase, serotonin synthesis increases. Sugar and starch and LOW LEVELS OF PROTEIN allow tryptophan to enter the brain. (p. 20) Serotonin calms and reduces stress.

"Every time you eat protein, you elevate the concentrations of the amino acids that compete with tryptophan for as long as three hours after digestion. This means that if you eat a three-to four-ounce turkey or tuna sandwich at noon, the amino acids from the poultry of fish will remain in your blood until three or four in the afternoon, inhibiting tryptophan from entering the brain." (p. 31)

She goes on to say that she and her colleagues have discovered "the exact amount of protein that can be consumed with carbohydrates without causing a buildup of amino acids in the blood. The ratio is one part protein to five parts carbohydrates. For instance, if you eat one ounce of turkey, eat five ounces of stuffing along with it; eat one meatball for five ounces of spaghette; just moisten your breakfast cereal with milk, rather than immersing it." (pp.31-32)

This research would seem to argue against a high protein/low carbohydrate diet for afibbers, if calming the nervous system is part of the afib equation.

Carol

Pam,

Check this site out. [www.healthexcel.com]

In the information library they have an article titled "Shattering Nutritional MYTHs With Metabolic Typing"

Recent scientific studies have “discovered” that just maybe the high carb, low protein/fat diet is not so good after all, and that what really is the best “right diet for all people” is a high protein, low carb diet. Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that REALITY once again will prove to be different than expected. In a few years, there will be a fallout of just as many people suffering in the wake of this “new” pendulum swing as from the last one.


You can eat the best organic foods, take the finest supplements money can buy, drink plenty of pure water, get sufficient rest and exercise regularly, but if you do not meet the needs of your Metabolic Type, you’ll only be wasting your time and money


Carol Fran once posted about a book called Potatoes not Prozac by Kathleen des maison. One could eat higher protein amounts during the day but before going to bed at night eat a potatoe or ather starchy food. This would facilitate the absorption of tryptophan and allow for increased seratonin levels thus enabling a restful sleep.

Balance is the key methinks Adrian

Carol and all--

I have tried several diets in the past in the hope of finding one which would boost my serotonin levels, since I have suffered from excessive anxiety in the past and found that serotonin-enhancing drugs like Prozac relieved my anxiety completely. I am also aware that serotonin-enhancing drugs have protected me from afib.

I have also tried the so-called "paleo" diet which requires relatively low intake of carbohydrates, persumably only those found in fruits and vegetables rather than grains.

I have tried avoiding excess glutamate; and then I tried eating a glutamate-rich, MSG-filled, dinner (last week) at a local Chinese restaurant. The garlic noodles there were very garlicky and very tasty in general. Full of MSG no doubt. My dining companion claimed she could taste the MSG the next day. We both had headaches the morning after (but no wine with dinner).

My conclusions: No special dietary regime has any effect on my afib vulnerability. I can eat anything and everything without fear of triggering afib.

The critical issue for me is maintaining my magnesium supplementation at a high level. I take from 800 to 1200 mg of elemental magnesium in the form of magnesium glycinate daily. I must be accustomed to high levels, because I suffer no GI upset even at 1200 mg per day. On the other hand at 400 mg per day I notice more PACs or PVCs. At 800 to 1200 mg per day, PACs and PVCs are virtually absent.

What I enjoy eating is a diet sufficient in protein, with moderate quantities of both fruits and vegetables and also carbohydrates in moderation. Protein without carbohydrate does not appeal to me at all and I take this as an indication that I need them both together. This morning for breakfast I will eat fish and rice. A perfect supper for me is spaghetti with a meatball or two and a small salad.

Carol I am sorry to read in the past few days that you are still having episodes of afib. I had thought that the magnesium supplementation has worked well for you, as it has for me.

Hello all, Just my two cents worth on the high protien low carb issue. I have had high cholesterol lipids for years, and now know it is genetic. While on a virtually no fat diet, exercising 4-5 days/wk at a high c/v level, I maintained wt @ around 210lbs, serum chol was 229, and remainder of lipid panel was way out of normal. After reading this board about a reduction/elimination of simple carbs and going high protien, I lost 20lbs in six months, with less exercise I might add, and my lipid panel was nearly identical after 8 months. My internist then placed me on Altocor and within 6 weeks, was markedly improved. This has also been a help with my bouts of AF I'm sure. I didn't go "overboard" just cut out most simple carbs ie: rice, potatoes, pasta, breads, although I will eat perhaps one or two slices of whole grain breads/day or sourdough.

All the best to you fellow Afibbers, John V43

Michael,

It is always good to read your posts.

If, as you say you are "aware that serotonin-enhancing drugs have protected me from afib," why wouldn't , a carbohydrate - rich diet , which enhances serotonin production, also help protect against afib?

Yes, I have recently had some discouraging break throughs of PVCs - no full blown afib, though - at 800 mg. a day. It is enough to keep me awake a good part of the night and I am getting tired out. Tried some Kava last night and it calmed me down so that I managed to get about five hours of sleep. I am so apprehensive about getting afib at night that at this point I am almost conditioned to get it!! I remember how in the pre-afib days I used to look forward to refreshing sleep and now I just approach bedtime with anxiety.

The reason I am having pvcs at night may be that unlike you, I am milk intolerant, and therefore, the balance between the magnesium/potassium and calcium may be off. It is hard to get enough calcium every day without milk products. Furthermore, there has been some discussion about calcium being excitory, so I stopped taking the combined form of mag/calcium. This trial and error business is confusing.

I am questioning the carbohydrate factor, because I have been on a modified paleo diet with very little carbohydrate. I am thinking that maybe I need to eat something in the order of your spaghetti and single meatball meal for dinner.

I also think that Adrian's suggestion about having a carbohydrate meal at night is a good one.

Does anyone know what the connection is, if any, between serotonin levels and afib?

Carol

Carol asked "If, as you say you are "aware that serotonin-enhancing drugs have protected me from afib," why wouldn't , a carbohydrate - rich diet , which enhances serotonin production, also help protect against afib?"

Carol

From my point of view (and we are all different) the reason that a carbohydrate rich diet would not work for me is that it would cause reactive hypoglycemia. The reactive hypo would then initiatate runs of ectopics, and AF. Not to mention other symptoms such as foggy thinking, tremors, sweating and an ANS that was highly unbalanced.

I think if you know that you are short of seratonin and also have blood sugar problems then Kathleen des Maisons book Potatoes not Prozac is the way to go. I did this before I went fully paleo and the potato trick at night really worked for a great sleep and got my sleep pattern back.

I personally think that metabolic typing is the best way to go. We are not all the same. Some people need much higher ammounts of carbs than others. Others like me need big quantities of protein, but a good amount of complex carbs from veg and fruit. Sometimes if you know your cultural heritage this is a good starting point. Eg my chinese friend is obviously an agriculturist and her forefathers exisited on a lot of rice and veggies wih limited ammounts of meat and fish. My forefathers were Scottish/Vikings -CAttle farmers and fishermen. So my forefathers adapted to eating a lot of protein (and butter and cheese too - but I am intolerant....) But of course a lot of us are the products of a big melting pot, so the best way is to keep a diary and find out by trial and error what works for you.

Fran

Carol--

Since the beginning of the year I have had no afib experiences, but I have had a number of nights of poor sleep because I have been anxious about the possibility of afib. This happens on many nights after I eat a late supper of have two glasses of wine with supper. I am hoping that eventually I will become accustomed to my freedom from afib and accept the fact that I will remain afib-free so long as I maintain my supplement regime and am careful with stress management.

Regarding serotonin-inducing suppers, with a good portion of carbohydrates, I should point out that the very-effective Argonne Labs Jet Lag diet is based on just this premise.

Regarding calcium in the diet, my impression is that if I eat a relatively large amount of calcium-laden foods over a period of several days, that I experience more PACs under these conditions than otherwise. I know that women of a certain age (and men too) are fearful of osteoporosis. Consequently they worry about adequate calcium intake. I also knew several older persons (including my mother) who had robust bone structure, with no evidence of osteoporosis, until they died in their eighties. They took no calcium supplements. My mother was lactose-intolerant from childhood and ate little in the way of dairy products excepting cheese on occasion.

I have to take thyroid medications and in my readings on the thyroid, I have read that in order for T4 to convert into T3 we need adequate carbs.

Also about Calcium, I go to the pace maker site and there is a lady that posts who is a cardiac nurse and she states that "the sinus node is calcium dependant and without adequate calcium one can get SSS (sick sinus syndrome).

I do eat mozzarella cheese but no longer take calcium tabs, I do take about 400 mg. of mag. (that is all I can handle), since not taking any cal. tabs, I have been getting a few leg cramps, I really think I need some calcium. I do not realize any difference in my afib when taking cal. tabs. to not taking them.

Liz

Liz:
Can you provide a link to the pace maker sight?
Thanks,
Pam

Pam:

Yes indeed, it is a very helpful site, here is the link

[www.implantable.com]

Liz