Atrial Septal Defect closure

Hello !
I am new on here
Wondering if there is anyone on here who has afib that is connected to having an ASD.

This congenital defect was discovered in me at 66 years old and I had a closure put in the hole in my septum 2 1/2 years ago at Stanford.
The enlargement of my heart caused by so many years of having a hole and blood flowing through it has now been corrected since the closure and my heart is a normal size However.....I still have the afib that started as a result of the hole and I have been working hard on trying to stop the afib. I am hoping to get some help from this forum and website and wondering if anyone on here has a similar cause of afib.

Why do you think your afib is a result of the defect? If it is, my guess would be it was actually indirectly caused by the atrial stretch and resulting
enlargement. Atrial stretch is a known cause of fibrosis, and fibrosis is a known cause of afib. So it's possible your defect caused the afib, but I suspect it was indirectly.

Anyway, whether it's the cause or not, treatment options aren't going to be different. The more important questions are how your afib behaves and what you're doing about it now. Is it persistent or paroxysmal? If it's paroxysmal, how often and how long are your episodes? Are you on an anticoagulant? How about rate control and/or antiarrhythmic drugs?

Hi Casey,
Thanks for the reply. I did mean pretty much what you said....that the afib is most likely a result of the stretching caused by the hole.
But yes, no matter why I have it....now I have it.

I have paroxysmal afib. I am not on an anticoagulant although the doctors want me on one. I take 4 natural blood thinners instead, I am afraid of all the side affects of anti[coagulants. But I am also concerned about stroke, of course. I take nattokinase, vit E, ginkgo and fish oil. And I drink a lot of water, which I read does also thin the blood, which makes sense to me.

The pattern of my afib shifts. In general, I usually have it about once a week or once every 2 weeks and it usually lasts about 8 hours....although I've had it less and I've had it more. The shortest being a few minutes. The longest being 15 hours.

After the closure (when i started to measure it) I had it about 1% of the time (measured each month). In 2 years it slowly went up to almost 6% of the time.

I haven't figured out if I have vagal or the other kind of afib. I think maybe I have a mixture.

11 months ago, I went on a diet of intermittent fasting....
....16 hour fasts every other day, 8 hour eating window on the "low" day, cycling low and moderate protein... low carb, high healthy fat.
I've basically been eating that way for 5 years...which helped me lose weight and makes me feel good.....but the fasting was new. After 2 months on this diet ("Glow 15" is the name of it)
my afib dramatically improved and for 6 months it was almost non-existent ! It seemed the cause of the improvement was the diet....but impossible to know for sure.

Then, unfortunately, 4 months ago, the afib started up again...about 1% - 3% of the time.
I stopped the fasting a month ago....and haven't seen significant change since then....still having afib about once a week or every 2 weeks, about 4 - 7 hours.

I have also worked with homeopathic remedies, magnesium supplements, homemade electrolyte drinks. homemade bone broth, no grain diet for 5 years.....and more.
The Glow 15 diet was the only thing I have tried that seemed to make a difference.

It seems very odd to me that the fasting seemed to work like a charm for 6 months and then stopped working. I liked doing it because it also has so many other health benefits, but my main motivation was to try to help my afib.

Has anyone had experience with something working and then not working for afib?

Has anyone had experience with fasting of any kind helping their afib?

I haven't been on antiarrythmic drugs.
I hope to find a natural cure and will be trying some suggestions from this website. I have just started to read all the info on the website but have already seen some things I haven't tried.....supplements for one thing....so I will be doing that.

Another question I have for anyone is.....do I have Lone Afib?.....since I have a heart defect?
I don't have any other kind of heart disease....would the congenital heart defect (even though it is "fixed") be considered heart disease and would that mean that I don't have long afib?

Thanks for any help!

Lone afib is a dated term that has largely fallen out of favor as cardiologists have come to recognize that afib is itself a form of heart disease. Atrial myopathy is the term they use. Would your afib be called lone afib a few years ago? Maybe. Have you had an echocardiogram or stress test? without at least one of those it's impossible to say you don't have heart disease.

I wish you luck with the blood thinners. I don't quite understand why you're more afraid of a single drug with well known characteristics but not afraid of strokes and multiple drugs with unknown characteristics. That makes very little sense to me.

And I really wish you luck with finding a natural cure. You know that no one has ever succeeded at that, right? There are things you can do to reduce your afib burden and/or reduce symptoms, but no one has ever cured afib by any means, natural or otherwise. The closest anyone has come is via ablation and Maze procedures, but those are more rightly described as putting the afib into remission rather than curing it.

Hi Carey,
Sorry I got your name wrong last time. Thanks for your responses and for taking the time to explain things. There are many ways to look at drugs, and side effects. I'm considering all of it at this point and I always have been.

I've had many echocardiograms because of the closure. And that was how the hole was first discovered. I've had one before and after the closure, and 5 months after and 1 year and 2 years after. They are keeping a close eye on things. My heart is in good shape except for the hole and the afib....meaning no other problems have been found.

Has anyone on here heard of Strophanthus, an herbal medicine for the heart? My husband and I have been taking it for 3 years. We have a doctor who is working extensively with it.

Quote
Barbcat
Has anyone on here heard of Strophanthus, an herbal medicine for the heart? My husband and I have been taking it for 3 years. We have a doctor who is working extensively with it.

Strange thing for someone with afib to be taking since it's fairly hazardous and known for causing arrhythmias.

Know you are looking for a "natural" cure. My approach is somewhat of a mixture. I've had afib for 15 years and I'm 64. In my case, it was brought on by chronic fitness (heavy endurance exercise). In the first 4 months, I had an episode that lasted 2.5 months. Not an auspicious beginning. I reasoned that the more time I spent in afib, the more progressive it would likely be. I convinced an EP to prescribe flecainide to me to be used on demand to convert episodes. The first use of it was to convert the 2.5 month episode. I also added magnesium to bowel tolerance, potassium citrate powder (4 g of potassium/day) dissolved in a liter of water i drink over the day and 4 g/day of taurine powder. I detrained from the heavy endurance activity, though remain very fit. I also avoid consuming excess calcium (I avoid dairy) as it has proven to be a bad actor for me with afib. I convert any episode that comes along with flecainide. This usually converts me in an hour or two - helping to meet my goal of minimizing time out of rhythm.

This has worked pretty well during this time (now over 14.5 years). I've gone as long as two years between episodes. I'm guessing I average one or two per year, but it is somewhat variable. Last I calculated it, my afib burden was less than 0.05%, compared to 57% in my first 4 months.

On diet and fasting - I think this may help someone who has metabolic illness improve their afib, but otherwise won't. For general health, but not afib, I eat a very low lectin diet. I get extensive bloodwork done 2x/year (around 24 vials drawn) with many inflammatory markers tested (various cytokines & etc) and I always test very low. I've also done extensive fasting. I've eaten in a 2 hour window for 4 years, done repeated 5 or 7 day water fasts and currently do at least a 48 hour fast 1x/week. In 2017, I did 19 five day fasts in eight months. I'm weight stable at 6' and 170#'s. I can ski hard off piste or rock climb all day fasted. But none of this impacts my afib, good or bad. Even though I actually consume a fairly high carb diet (no processed food), I've been keto adapted for 10 years and will always test in the range of 0.9-2 0 mmol/L betahydroxybuterate on a morning test. When I fast longer than 22 hours, the ketones increase materially and in a day or two, my blood sugar is in the 50's (mg/dL). I've gone to the gym with a blood sugar of 31. My neurologist buddy I climb with says he's only seen people with blood sugar in the 30's as comatose. I tell him they just weren't adapted. Point being is that none of this impacts the afib (except the initial conversion to ketosis can cause electrolyte shifts which can cause an issue).

My triggers are a) forgetting to take my magnesium or b) pushing beyond my subjective exercise limits (which are really pretty high). On exercise, for me, it is the product of heart rate elevation and time. So I can do short (HIIT Tabatas) high intensity sessions or long but low intensity ones. Long, high intensity sessions are triggers for me.

Good luck!

George



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2019 11:01PM by GeorgeN.

For a natural cure you should consider NATTO food.
I have been taking it for over 12 months and have seen a great improvement in my afib burdon.
I used to have afib about once or twice a month. This year I have had just one event.
It's not a quick fix because IMHO it's doing some repair work.
There is another poster named Dean who has had success taking it. You may want to search for his posts and read about his experience taking natto.






NATTO ADVANTAGES. 


1, probiotic. 


There is up to 1 billion probiotics in a gram of natto, therefore in 40 grams of natto you get about 40 billion probiotics. 




2, vitamin K2.


Natto is high in vitamin K2. In 40 grams of natto there is about 400 mcg of K2, which is enough for 3 days. 

Vitamin K2 has 2 enzymes,


Matrix Gla-protein (MGP)Osteocalcin

“Gla” is short for glutamic acid. Glutamic acid is imported into the cells in the wall of your arteries, where it binds to calcium and removes it from the lining of your blood vessels.

Once removed from your blood vessel lining, vitamin K2 then facilitates the intergration of that calcium into your bone matrix by handing it over to osteocalcin,. The osteocalcin then helps cement the calcium in place.


Coronary artery calcification increases atrial fibrillation therefore redirecting calcium to where it belongs reduces afib. 





3, the farmented soybean.


The soybean contains genistein which has antiarrhythmic properties, among other benifits. 





4.  Nattokinase


One of the best known effects of Nattokinase is that it reduces clotting in blood by dissolving fibrin. 

When fibrin escapes to blood, it binds platelets together resulting in a clot. 

In young people, production of plamin - an agent that reduces synthesis of fibrin - is at its maximum. However, as people get older and in some disease conditions, less plasmin is produced thus the risk of developing clots. Nattokinase contains agents that work like plasmin and therefore is used in place of plasmin. It is also 4 times more effective than plasmin.

By countering the production of angiotensin converting hormone (ACE),  (which reduces the elasticity of blood vessels;  consequently, the vessels become narrower. Narrow vessel lead to high blood pressure.)  Nattokinase makes the blood vessels soft and supple , it increases the supply of blood to all parts of the body and lowers blood presure.

Carey.....
An interesting comment since I have repeatedly read the opposite.

What is the source of your information about Strophanthus?

Barbara

Quote
Barbcat
Carey.....
An interesting comment since I have repeatedly read the opposite.

What is the source of your information about Strophanthus?

I can't imagine what you're reading that says the opposite because it's not hard to find information on the toxicity and dangerous side effects of strophanthus. It has effects very similar to digoxin and comes with the same toxicity problems. Some examples of sources:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/pharmacology-toxicology-and-pharmaceutical-science/strophanthus

https://www.rxlist.com/strophanthus/supplements.htm

Carey,
Many medicines are derived from toxic preparations. The same elements that make them toxic, make them medicinal.
That is why they need to be monitored and understood and used properly. This is true for Strophanthus. We take it under a doctor's supervision.
A good example of this dynamic is Warfarin, made from rat poison.

These are just a few websites (there are many more) that show Strophanthus has been used successfully to help with heart problems.....
more extensively in Europe than in the US, particularly in Germany....

[www.medpex.de]

(scroll down to read the description under "Preparation from Plant Extracts")


and some case studies where strophanthus has helped with heart problems, including afib:

[fourfoldhealing.com]

a further description of ouabain (strophanthus).....
[fourfoldhealing.com]

Just another way to look at it....if you or anyone else is interested....
and at least we can agree to disagree on this topic.

Barbara

George and Colindo,
Thanks to you both for sharing your experiences. I really appreciate hearing them.

George, I am good about restrictive and unusual diets, but not about exercise. I do get mild exercise and walk a lot since we don't have a car now. But....I admire someone who exercises so much. You are not the first person I have heard of who has gotten afib from extensive exercise. I have a very very hard time identifying my triggers. I think stress is one, for sure...but it is not a straight line. I can go through very stressful times and not have afib. Also the opposite. Sometimes I have it when there is not much stress going on at all. I can't relate it to anything else that people mention as triggers. But I am still reading, looking and thinking about it all. And have identified a few new things to try from this website. Stopping the intermittent fasting hasn't seemed to help....so I could be like you...fasting doesn't affect the afib one way or the other.....but I don't know how to think about the fact that the afib suddenly went away for 6 months and it seemed to be linked to the fasting....but then it came back Any thoughts about that?

I am interested in Natto that you talked about Colindo. Thank you for the great explanation of the benefits.
My husband and I are very transient right now.....for the past 5 years.....Asia, Mexico and currently in Portugal. So it can be very challenging to even get supplements (and travel with them), and also to eat as healthy as I like to. I don't know if I could get Natto here but I will try. I also am reading up on other natural suggestions on this website and am going to start taking more supplements, as suggested. I've been taking some supplements, but, like I said, it's way more challenging than when living in the US to get them, and to not run out.

I do take Nattokinase for blood thinning, since I don't want to take anti coagulants. I don't understand the relationship, or the difference between Natto food and Nattokinase. If you have time, maybe you could explain that to me.....?

I guess no one else on this forum has dealt with an Atrial Septal Defect and afib.....?? or hasn't replied if they have.

many thanks to you both,
Barbara

Quote
Barbcat
A good example of this dynamic is Warfarin, made from rat poison.

Warfarin did not come from rat poison. Rat poison came from warfarin.

Warfarin was discovered, serendipitously, by veterinarians diagnosing mass cattle herd die-offs in the 1930s. It was traced to a mold that was contaminating ensiloed feed. The cattle hemorrhaged to death after consuming lethal doses of what we now know as the drug warfarin.

Quote
Barbcat

I am interested in Natto that you talked about Colindo.

I do take Nattokinase for blood thinning, since I don't want to take anti coagulants. I don't understand the relationship, or the difference between Natto food and Nattokinase. If you have time, maybe you could explain that to me.....?

One of the best explanation I have found is from Dr Axe.
See link
[draxe.com]

I am in UK at the moment and found a supplier in London at Japanese Centre you may want to email them and ask where there local supplier is for Portugal.