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Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener

Posted by tobherd 
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 14, 2019 10:02PM
Carey said the following: I've never had a weight problem, my BP was fine up until a couple of years ago, I eat a good diet, I exercise regularly including 100+ miles per week on a bike, and I stopped all alcohol for a while to see if that mattered. Nope. Made no difference. This whole theory that afib is a lifestyle disease is a crock, in my opinion. Lifestyle can influence it and make it better or worse, but it's not a cause.

Gee Carey do you think the AHA is blowing smoke? Although I do agree that AF is in our DNA. But, what do you think of the following? There is also merit in lifestyle.

More bad news for diet soda lovers: Drinking two or more of any kind of artificially sweetened drinks a day is linked to an increased risk of clot-based strokes, heart attacks and early death in women over 50, according to a new study by the American Heart Association and American Stroke Association.

Liz
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 14, 2019 10:18PM
Colindo:

I am sorry to hear about your sister, hopefully she will recover fully. I havn't kept count but there has been quite a few people that have come out and told of their relatives and also themselves that have had strokes and have been on a anticoagulant. You know a number of years ago my doc. put me on Coumadin, I couldn't take it as it made my eyes bloodshot, and blood pooling in my thumb, quitting the Coumadin led to my coughing up some blood clots, I was lucky that I did. I do not advise anyone as to take or not take a bloodthinner, we have to decide on all info that we can get.

Liz
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 14, 2019 10:24PM
Quote
Carey
This whole theory that afib is a lifestyle disease is a crock, in my opinion. Lifestyle can influence it and make it better or worse, but it's not a cause.

I concur.

I got AF at 6’0”, 170 lb, BP 115/70, running 35 miles/wk, eating a zero-fat diet and, of course, not smoking. What was I supposed to do to rend the “Scarlet AF” from my chest?

My dad got AF at age 50. My mom at age 71. Hmmm...

If poor diet and holding down sofas from the deleterious effects of anti-gravity were the sole cause of AF, it’d be a lot more prevalent than 5% of the population!
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 14, 2019 10:58PM
Quote
wolfpack

This whole theory that afib is a lifestyle disease is a crock, in my opinion. Lifestyle can influence it and make it better or worse, but it's not a cause.


I concur.

I got AF at 6’0”, 170 lb, BP 115/70, running 35 miles/wk, eating a zero-fat diet and, of course, not smoking. What was I supposed to do to rend the “Scarlet AF” from my chest?

My dad got AF at age 50. My mom at age 71. Hmmm...

If poor diet and holding down sofas from the deleterious effects of anti-gravity were the sole cause of AF, it’d be a lot more prevalent than 5% of the population!

What's running 35 miles a week doing to your heart, Carey did much the same thing?

I can only go by my own experence with lifestyle changes, getting my weight down, lowering my blood presure etc. was a big help to my afib burden. And I have not needed an ablation.
I have gone from 2 to 3 afib events a month to 3 events in the last 9 months and 2 of those was due to bad magnesium.

So telling forum members that lifestyle changs is a crock is not good advise. BTW not all afibbers are like yourself and Carey.
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 14, 2019 11:02PM
We read about people that do a lot of exercise which leads to their getting AF, actually running is not supposed to be that good for you. I don't recall the name of that guy that was a runner and wrote a book about it, he dropped dead I believe in his 50s, I knew a man that golfed at the club I golfed at, he was a runner, he too dropped dead while running, a fast walk is better. Sorry but a zero fat diet is not good for you, we do need fat, the cholesterol in our brain needs it. I don't mean bad fats, but olive oil, walnut oil, avocado oil, butter is ok. I also say that AF is in our DNA however, I may not have gotten AF if I hadn't taken too much thyroid meds which led to my being hyper and going into AF.
Liz
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 14, 2019 11:20PM
Quote
colindo
So telling forum members that lifestyle changs is a crock is not good advise. BTW not all afibbers are like yourself and Carey.

You misread me.

Lifestyle change IS a good choice, to the extent that a change can make a difference. I’m glad it did in your case.

I don’t believe any two afibbers are alike. We are all different. I simply reject the notion that lifestyle is to blame, all the time.
Joe
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 14, 2019 11:22PM
Agree with Liz, a zero fat diet is an unhealthy fad diet. Sadly, propaganda and junk science encouraged many to follow it sad smiley
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 15, 2019 12:49AM
Quote
colindo
So telling forum members that lifestyle changs is a crock is not good advise.

I didn't say that. I said lifestyle can affect afib and make it better or worse; it's just not the cause. You can and should improve your lifestyle to make your afib better. Just don't expect to cure it with lifestyle changes. Not going to happen.
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 15, 2019 09:50AM
Suggesting to forum members that ignoring CHADs and anticoagulants (or using the natto miracle drug instead) while attempting to make lifestyle changes is likely worse advise, or in any case has far less validation. It is wrong to minimize the cumulative and not just annualized risk for ischemic stroke with afib, which in addition has significantly worse outcomes in the afib versus non-afib stroke population. One could similarly suggest foregoing ablation based on bad experiences your personally know or heard about. This whole "experiment of one (or a few)" thing is really poor judgment when it comes to anticoagulants and stroke.
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 15, 2019 12:08PM
Carey, you said "This whole theory that afib is a lifestyle disease is a crock, in my opinion"

Safib, you assume an ablation is an option for all of us.
I also dont believe your stroke risk goes up yearly, and thats my opinion. Which used to be allowed on this forum.
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 15, 2019 01:00PM
Quote
colindo
Safib, you assume an ablation is an option for all of us.
I also dont believe your stroke risk goes up yearly, and thats my opinion. Which used to be allowed on this forum.

It is not that your annual stroke risk goes up, it's that your cumulative stroke risk goes up (cumulative meaning your risk over a period of several years). The simplest model to explain this is coin flipping with a fair coin. The probability of getting a head in one flip is 0.5. For n flips it is 1 - (1 - 0.5)^n. So the probability of getting a head in n = 2 flips is 0.75 , and the probability of getting a head in n = 10 flips is .999. If you employ the same model for stroke, where the annual stroke risk is 2%, then the cumulative stroke risk is 18.3% over 10 years. Now there are issues with the model, but it is a good choice lacking long term longitudinal data . Better models would account for some fine tuning to allow for stroke incidence occurring continuously rather than once per year, or time variation of the stroke risk, or dependency of stroke events (having one stroke would make it more likely to have another). But it wouldn't change the results much. This isn't opinion, cumulative risks go up with time and models like this are well-validated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2019 01:01PM by safib.
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 15, 2019 01:13PM
Quote
safib

Safib, you assume an ablation is an option for all of us.
I also dont believe your stroke risk goes up yearly, and thats my opinion. Which used to be allowed on this forum.

It is not that your annual stroke risk goes up, it's that your cumulative stroke risk goes up (cumulative meaning your risk over a period of several years). The simplest model to explain this is coin flipping with a fair coin. The probability of getting a head in one flip is 0.5. For n flips it is 1 - (1 - 0.5)^n. So the probability of getting a head in n = 2 flips is 0.75 , and the probability of getting a head in n = 10 flips is .999. If you employ the same model for stroke, where the annual stroke risk is 2%, then the cumulative stroke risk is 18.3% over 10 years. Now there are issues with the model, but it is a good choice lacking long term longitudinal data . Better models would account for some fine tuning to allow for stroke incidence occurring continuously rather than once per year, or time variation of the stroke risk, or dependency of stroke events (having one stroke would make it more likely to have another). But it wouldn't change the results much. This isn't opinion, cumulative risks go up with time and models like this are well-validated.

And I ask why, why is my stroke risk after 10 years now 18.3%, what has caused that.? Is it my lifestyle, maybe?
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 15, 2019 02:32PM
Quote
colindo
And I ask why, why is my stroke risk after 10 years now 18.3%, what has caused that.? Is it my lifestyle, maybe?

Your risk didn't change. What happened is math.

Stroke risk is usually stated as risk per year. So if your risk of having a stroke in one year is 2%, over the course of 10 years you incur that 2% risk 10 times. As safib explained, that risk adds up. It's not 20% because it's not simple addition, but it does add up. The answer is the risk is 18.3% that you'll have at least one stroke in a 10 year period.
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 15, 2019 03:11PM
Quote
Carey

And I ask why, why is my stroke risk after 10 years now 18.3%, what has caused that.? Is it my lifestyle, maybe?

Your risk didn't change. What happened is math.

Stroke risk is usually stated as risk per year. So if your risk of having a stroke in one year is 2%, over the course of 10 years you incur that 2% risk 10 times. As safib explained, that risk adds up. It's not 20% because it's not simple addition, but it does add up. The answer is the risk is 18.3% that you'll have at least one stroke in a 10 year period.

Will blood thinners stop that one stroke in 10 years?
As I said my sister is now in hospital with a stroke after being on thinners for 12 months, that is in fact true.
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 15, 2019 03:14PM
Sure, the longer I live the more apt I am to get some kind of disease, the more I drive my car the more chance of getting in an accident, don't know the percentages of that but it is there. We can go on and on with this kind of maybe, perhaps. Also, I would say the longer one would be on a blood thinner the more a chance of getting a bleed, there are also numerous reports of getting a stroke while on the med., does that go up percentage wise the longer one is on the blood thinner? My mother was on Coumadin for about 6 years, she had to stop as she had internal bleeding.


Liz
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 15, 2019 03:26PM
Colindo

Which blood thinner was she on? How is she doing?

Liz
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 15, 2019 05:06PM
Quote
colindo
And I ask why, why is my stroke risk after 10 years now 18.3%, what has caused that.? Is it my lifestyle, maybe?

It isn’t 18.3% AFTER 10 years. It’s 18.3% OVER 10 years. Your just looking at a 10-year window as opposed to a 1-year window.

It’s that whole “lies, damn lies, and statistics” thing. winking smiley
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 15, 2019 05:19PM
Quote
Elizabeth
Colindo

Which blood thinner was she on? How is she doing?

Liz

Its one of the newer ones but I am not sure what brand, I will ask her.
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
February 15, 2019 06:20PM
Quote
colindo
Will blood thinners stop that one stroke in 10 years?
As I said my sister is now in hospital with a stroke after being on thinners for 12 months, that is in fact true.

No drug is perfect and anticoagulants don't prevent 100% of all strokes. Nothing does. So asking if they will stop that one stroke in 10 years isn't really a valid question. The question is will they reduce the chances of having that one stroke and the answer is yes.

Sorry about your sister. It's worth noting that strokes that occur while taking anticoagulants are very often due to poor compliance. You know, you get busy or you're traveling or your normal schedules are disrupted and you miss a dose, or two, or three. I've heard stories of people forgetting to take their anticoagulants for weeks.
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
March 04, 2019 04:26PM
Quote
Carey

do i NEED to take this for a YEAR (at least?)

What's your afib situation? Are you having episodes? If not, when was the last one? You say you're a CHADs-Vasc 1, so that means anticoagulants are a judgement call. The biggest factor in that decision is going to be afib activity.

The other question is how long do you expect to need ibuprofen? It's not that ibuprofen is completely contraindicated; it's just that it shouldn't be taken with anticoagulants long term. I've been told by two EPs that taking it for a few days is okay, but a few weeks is not.

And, really, if it's not going to be long term, I'd go for the Norco. You won't become addicted in a few days or even weeks, and with kidney stones you might need a lot more than ibuprofen. I've seen people passing kidney stones who were in horrible pain even with morphine.

Thanks for this ... i am going to ask about taking ibuprofen.. turns out the kidney stone was not. I was SURE it was b/c it was the same pain starting as before. It now makes me wonder if i really had to have the giant bolder removed 3 years ago.. but i had a CT and that is not the issue. I do have skeletal issues though.. and the ibuprofen would help. I am NOT having episodes. I had 3 episodes from T-giving to new year and ended up a week in hospital to get on tykosin so i'm on that and xeralto and have been doing well. (I was taking metrop but that did not work well for me.) I am now just trying to understand if i truly need to be on xeralto or can i just take it if i go into a-fib..and how to get off the xeralto. (I just wrote out another thread for that one. ) thanks for taking the time to answer. i was off for a bit dealing with this other pain but trying to understand the blood thinner thing now better.
Re: Now I am really afraid to stay on Eliquis....today was an eye opener
March 15, 2019 07:38AM
There is a refersal Agent for Eliquis but dont recall name right now BUT how many hospitals, other than mAybe larger medical centers have it? Hopefully soon it will be available worldwide but wont be awhile. My gosh we cant even get enough supply of Shringrix so what makes us think that is coming anytime soon.
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