Magnesium reminder - especially for PACs

With the numerous, recent posts on ‘ectopic beat’ activity either as a precursor to AF or post ablation palps; and, at the risk of sounding like a recording glitch, I feel compelled to offer another reminder about the important function of intracellular magnesium (IC Mg) and why optimizing that will help eliminate or significantly reduce those extra beats.

Afibbers often want to know how long they have to supplement with Mg before they start to notice relief. The answer varies, but it’s important to acknowledge that when you’re prone to AF (ablated or not), supplementing is likely to be a life-long requirement since magnesium is so easily depleted and is also can be very difficult to obtain strictly from food sources in amounts that satisfy the body’s overall needs in addition to the heart’s requirement for stability. Plus, the interferences such as difficulty in cellular uptake so a blood test indicating “normal” range doesn’t reflect what’s inside the cells where the Mg actually functions. Several recent studies indicate the trial ‘repletion’ span is often as long as 8 months and obviously varies individually by health influences, age, lifestyle habits that interfere and so on. Additionally, the other electrolyte levels, potassium, sodium and calcium are also highly influential but the solid base of IC magnesium is the starting point.

Stress is huge depleter of magnesium and with afibbers, since extra beats might herald another bout of arrhythmia, the stress response to ectopy can be significant. Just daily living can be stressful enough, so coupled with other factors that lower IC Mg, optimal repletion is a challenge that deserves your full attention. Other influences also cause Premature Atrial Contractions.

Following are key points that contribute to the ‘individuality’ issue depending on how intense or severe the influence.
As a reminder… stress plays a huge role in the downstream effects that can lead to PACS. Some afibbers become hugely stressed even with just a couple of skipped beats because it is so often signals the onsent an AF event. For some, that can be very unsettling and, often, downright terrifying which can help propel the stress ‘process’ and that (itself) contributes to afib.

The stress factor can be connected to adrenal function and both high and low adrenaline/cortisol on a chronic basis can lead to lifestyle-based endocrine disorders… according to one of the adrenal function experts, Diana Schwarzbein, MD who wrote about her recovery from such problems in her book, The Schwarzbein Principle II, (published in 2002). So, it’s not a new ‘theory’ but adrenal function symptoms gained a lot of interest after publication. The book is a bit over 500 pages including references and index and covers a lot of topics associated with stress issues and adrenal function.

Dr. Schwarzbein lists symptoms of intermittent high adrenaline levels as ‘chronic symptoms that occur for short periods of time’ and include Agitation, Anxiety, Bladder urgency, Blurry vision, Burning Feet, Emotional intensity, Excessive sweating, Heartburn, Heart palpitations, Interrupted sleep (the inability to fall asleep or stay asleep), Light-headedness/dizziness, Loose bowel movements, Nausea, Nervousness, Short emotional fuse/uncontrollable anger.

Related to this stress issue are signs and symptoms of Cortisol levels (the stress hormone) both high and low levels… and as she notes, “The American lifestyle is a high-cortisol life style” and she describes the impact of this hormone imbalance affects one’s life. And, unfortunately, it’s often not recognized the underlying problem.

The importance of optimal magnesium intake and then, success in maintaining an optimal level, intracellularly, has been a research topic for many years… and one that has been discussed and reminded continually on this forum … with references going to the classic work of the late Mildred S. Seeling, MD, MPH and her timeless book, The Magnesium Factor, co-authored by Andrea Rosanoff, PhD who continues on with magnesium research. It’s worth going to Dr. Rosanoff's website to learn about new findings and to reinforce the importance of continually optimizing magnesium in the body.

Center for Magnesium Education & Research, LLC …..promoting knowledge of nutritional magnesium and its peer-reviewed science [magnesiumeducation.com]

From The Magnesium Factor and a segment on Stress and Magnesium Requirements:

Excerpt summary: Various forms of stress include emotional, physical, mental… including mental and physical stress caused by competition. Also environmental stress including: heat, cold, forced immobility, flashing bright lights, loud noise both sudden or continuous. And, physical stress such as extreme and endurance exercise, hunger, pain, illness, medical operations and invasive medical tests. (just to list a few). Individually, we differ in how we respond to stress but the body’s response is increased secretion of the stress hormones adrenaline and adrenal cortisone… often called the fight or flight hormone.

“Stress hormones cause a sudden rise in magnesium-dependent reactions. Energy production, nerve-impulse transmission, increased muscle function and responses of heart and blood vessels all require magnesium. There is an immediate increase in the body’s use of magnesium, so our need for magnesium soars as we respond to stress. Thus, our reactions to acute stress really put our magnesium status to the test.” p 154-155

My comment: This ultimately puts those who don’t have adequate reserves or stores of magnesium, immediately at risk for symptoms of magnesium deficiency because… “ the stress hormones begin to mobilize magnesium from even the vital tissues, such as the heart”…. so it’s not difficult to make the connection to the Afib and PACs with regard to low magnesium and the stress connection.

Dr. Seelig says: “When stored (intracellular) magnesium runs out (hypomagnesemia), this condition by itself creates stress and directly initiates more adrenaline release. When the magnesium stores are adequate, the potentially dangerous, vicious cycle does not occur. But, if borderline, then this potentially dangerous, vicious cycle does not occur. But if magnesium is borderline or deficient, the stress response can result in a dangerously low magnesium state that can produce magnesium depletion with the res o severe effects such as heart attack and even sudden death from arrhythmia. When a magnesium deficient person is stressed, the only way to prevent a potentially catastrophic loss of magnesium is to:

• Reduce the adrenaline response (with beta blockers)
• Replace the body’s magnesium quickly by means of IV or IM injection followed by immediate and sustained supplementation with oral Mg and to repair the deficit
• Provide supportive antioxidant nutrients that counteract the oxidative effects of the fall in magnesium…(continued later in this chapter). p 157 - 159

There is much more detail in Dr. Seelig’s book which you can conveniently read online courtesy of Paul Mason’s Magnesium Water.com website. [mgwater.com]

Read on pp. 156—161 about
The Effects of Low Magnesium Combined with Stress How Adrenaline
Release and Magnesium deficit Reinforce Each Other
Damage to Magnesium-Deficient Cells caused by Stress
How Stress Depletes Magnesium in Everyday Life.

Now, additionally, those practitioners who focus on adrenal function and the hormonal reactions involved from the HPAA Hypothalamic Pituitary Adrenal Axis, go into extensive biochemical/biophysical reactions to stress involving all the various hormones. Those who treat adrenal fatigue, chronic fatigue syndrome and similar disorders successfully always go back to the need to assess the entire function of the HPAA and then manage according to what’s either high or low. Specific testing targets the treatment path and it’s naturally quite variable according to the individual.

Another example of a book describing various assessment and treatment approaches is
Adrenal Fatigue – The 21st Century Stress Syndrome by James L. Wilson, ND, DC, PhD

An important example of one adrenal hormone function to which afibbers can relate: the hormone, Aldosterone – the action of which is the regulation of sodium, potassium and fluid volume. And always with optimal magnesium stores so that all of the various hormones can function as intended.

As a reminder…. Without magnesium available inside heart cells, elevated amount of sodium, potassium and calcium can cause excitability of heart cells and shortened refractory period or PACs.

Jackie



Mg water website… [www.adelaide.edu.au]
See esp. the section on Magnesium and stress…

Rosanoff paper on Magnesium water..
[www.mgwater.com]

which is the best/safest form of magnesium for AF? TIA

which is the best/safest form of magnesium for AF? Apparently some of them have arsenic in. TIA

Anne - so many options out there... What have you tried thus far and what have you found for positive or negative effects with your particular biochemistry? We are all different with responses... some, can take most any brand and form without a problems and others notice various types of reactions. These days, there are cautionary comments about where the products' raw materials are sourced because of risk contamination and lack of quality control from the source, handling, packaging, etc. I try to use a bottler with a good history of quality assurance and Good Manufacturing Practice Standards... GMP.

I prefer the amino acid chelate version called magnesium bisglycinate chelate... labeled with the trademark TRAACS... but I also like magnesium malate and sometimes magnesium citrate.

Klaire Labs has a TRAACS bulk powder magnesium bisglycinate chelate that I have used for years as my mainstay...but when I travel, I use the capsule form.

And of course, I continue to use the WW or magnesium bicarbonate water concentrate added to my own well water as a significant source of my daily magnesium intake. That way I know what goes into it.

Jackie

thnx for response. I have been using Klare labs mag glycinate capsules. I had been taking that at night and then during the day Cardiovascular Research mag taurate which I just discovered was found to be high in arsenic in 2016 and I have no idea if that was remedied so have stopped taking it I will try the powder you mentioned but what about mag taurate, is there a safe one or is not really necessary (I do take 1,000mg taurine daily. TIA

[www.amazon.com]

Jackie,
I purchased this today. Have you heard of/used it?

Kate... I had not heard of it but it looks good.

They are using the TRAACS(R) designation (food) and they also say on the label: no buffers ... which, by the nature of a true chelate, does not need an added buffer (filler) such as magnesium oxide.

Jackie

Quote
Jackie
Kate... I had not heard of it but it looks good.

They are using the TRAACS(R) designation (food) and they also say on the label: no buffers ... which, by the nature of a true chelate, does not need an added buffer (filler) such as magnesium oxide.

Jackie

Thank you!

I thought I posted this but apparently not I have been using Cardiovascular Research Mag Taurate in the morning but recently discovered it was found high in arsenic in 2016 and there doesn't seem to be any way to find out if they eliminated the cause. The place I purchase it from supposedly is looking into it but so far (after a week) they haven't been able to find out. I also use Pure Formula Mag Glycinate in the evening

Anne - How did you learn about the high arsenic content?

Jackie

Jackie,

You seem to know a lot about Magnesium so here's my question if you don't mind? How accurate is the RBC magnesium blood lab? I had 3 different done over 9 months and they are in the high 7.8, 7.4. 7.3. Now let's say that at least one of them is accurate, why haven't I had any rest from ectopics? Im doing another this week just to make sure the range stays the same.

JohnnyS: Wow, I thought I was good on my RBC at 6.1!!

Quote
johnnyS
Now let's say that at least one of them is accurate, why haven't I had any rest from ectopics?

Because magnesium isn't the cause. Sure, it's helpful for afib patients, but it's neither the cause nor the cure of the underlying disease.

JohnnyS... deficiency in intracellular magnesium... in this case, heart cells, is often the problem with ectopics.... (and many other issues as well)... but the cells must have optimal quantities of IC Mg for proper function...AND magnesium is not the only electrolyte that's involved. There has to be proper ratios for all to work together in synergy.

The example we most often use is that it's known that if .. there is too much sodium (inside the cells).... that keeps potassium from functioning. If your calcium is too high, that keeps magnesium from entering.

Once you have optimized the IC magnesium, then you can work on the potassium... as that's the electrolyte that moderates the refractory period aka the time between beats.... if you are low on potassium, then you'll have more skipped beats.

The caveat is... however, you can't shortcut the process....if you add potassium before the Mg is optimized, then that makes things worse. Often, a thorough dietary intake assessment of sodium from all sources is needed to help assist the natural potassium consumed to become effective. Some afibbers have found they need to add supplemental potassium in order to get the ectopics under control.... BUT.... we always CAUTION... that should be done with mindfulness and not as shortcut... or you can make things worse.

Take the time to assess your dietary intake of all the electrolytes and then, check to see your ratios.

On testing...Go to this link on the topic of testing (from 3 years ago) and read before you begin anything new....

[www.afibbers.org]

This clip (following) from the 6th post down should be noted as it clarifies the important difference.


In recommending measurement of intracellular (IC) electrolytes, in this case EXAtest and magnesium, it's important to clarify the confusion of reference ranges. The confusion begins with the word 'cell', leading unwittingly to suppose red blood CELL magnesium level is the same for muscle CELLs, this forum's concern being performance of cardiac muscle cells.

But, RBCs (erythrocytes) are vastly different from muscle cells (myocytes) in structure, function, and Mg level. In fact, the only obvious commonality seems having phospholipid serum membranes!

The main 'job' of RBCs is transportation and distribution of oxygen and CO2 throughout the body's cells and systems, whereas the job of myocytes is forceful contraction. Myocyte contraction requires energy in the form of the fuel molecule ATP complexed with magnesium as MgATP.

Looking at the differences in Mg reference ranges furthers the understanding:

Serum: 1.3 - 2.1 mEq/L [barttersite.org] (Lab Diagnosis of Magnesium Deficiency -- Herbert C Mansmann Jr MD)
RBCs: 4.04 - 6.9 mEq/L (ditto)
Myocytes: 34.0 - 40.0 mEq/L [www.exatest.com] [www.afibbers.org]

Jackie

Jackie,

Interesting, so I could then still be low is what you’re saying. I just got approved and faxed my info for exatest and they will mail me a kit in couple of days.

The problem with EXAtest is not that it isn't an accurate assay, but rather there is no disclosure or reporting of the statistical analysis for their so-called reference ranges. The literature focusses entirely on the accuracy, and the lab is nonresponsive about their sampling methodology. Without this information, the only value would be repeated measurements of the same individual over time to see whether there is a trend. You would be better off doing your own trial and assessing the effects . Of course, the whole idea that Mg is a miraculous cure for afib in the general population is completely speculative.

Quote
safib
Of course, the whole idea that Mg is a miraculous cure for afib in the general population is completely speculative.

I'm not sure I'd even give it credit for being speculative. Nobody has ever cured afib with magnesium or even put it in remission.

Safib:

I have a Holistic doctor who has said to me that he didn't find the exact test that reliable, he uses the RBC test.

Liz

For me this comes down to whether something is working or not and I don't know if I caused some other imbalance like with Vitamins D or calcium.. I am not questioning if Mg works, I know it does, If I take Mg in 1500mg daily my Pacs go away, but when I stop for few days or a week they come back. Each time I cut back the Mg intake down to 500mg a day due to my RBC count in the range of 7.0 and above, Pacs came right back. I was under the impression that if you replete Mg cells then you no longer need the high dosages but in my situation that's not the case. So I am considering Vit D or some other issue going on. I will try Exatest just to compare with RBC Magnesium.

FYI Folks,

We experienced a temporary glitch with the forum platform software that seems to have only affected this particular thread on "Magnesium-especially for PACS" that Jackie kindly posed for us.

The glitch caused all the replies to Jackies post to disappear, as if they had been 'unapproved messages' ... which was definitely not the case! It should all be working fine now and I trust you all can catch up on the 18 replies that have been posted, so far, in response to Jackie's initial thread starting post.

Cheers!
Shannon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2019 09:41AM by Shannon.

Good point SAFIB,
And that is one reason why I wound up running total of 9 EXAtest tests for myself back in the day when AFIB/Flutter was still a big problem for me, to try to see if there were any consistent levels that at least correlated with my symptoms? And I did find that to be the case. Although, with 9 test samples it was obviously limited data to draw any firm conclusions from, nevertheless, at the time I cross-checked each EXAtest with RBC tests drawn on the same morning as each of the 9 EXAtest scraping samples taken.

One seeming constant I found was that I clearly needed to take in very large doses of Magnesium for my EXAtest reading to really respond by moving off the super low readings on their scale I always showed in the early testing. And thus I need a large dose combination of 3 grams of IV Mag Sulfate in a Myers cocktails once a week for a two month period, plus 2 grams intramuscular injection of Mag Sulfate 3 days a week evenly spaced over the same total duration, and in addition to 15 sprays of Ancient Minerals Topical Mag each evening, PLUS 700mg a day of the oral Mag Glycinate!!

Only then could I move my EXAtest into a modest 'normal' range on their own scale with me achieving, at best, only a max level of 37 from my previous strongly & frankly low intracellular EXAtest levels of around 31 when taking just 800mg to 1,000mg a day of oral Magnesium glycinate as my only supplemental magnesium intake per day. These initial more or less typical doses of oral-only Mag recommended for Afibbers had little to no noticeable effect on arrhythmia suppression for me until I increased my mag intake dramatically.

After discussing my findings with Dr. Burt Silver who created the EXAtest in concert with NASA for the purpose of doing ion testing in space, and from his suggestion that, like many Afibbers he had seen take the EXAtest, I likely had a genetic wasting syndrome where my body ran through whatever magnesium I took in relatively quickly, seemed to his hypothesis as to why I likely needed such large and frequent doses of various forms of Mag to even get my levels off the floor.

Once I had moved to the mega-dosing range via Oral, IV, IM and Topical routes of Mag, not only did my symptoms show a significant reduction in both Ectopic runs and a notable, but not at all total, reduction in AFIB/ Flutter burden over the next year, but there was also a decent correlation with my last few EXAtest readings over the same time frame with my numbers finally moving off the floor to the 37 level which is 'low-normal' to 'moderate-normal' on their scale.

Moral of my experience was that it can be deceptive if one is taking a typical oral dose of Mag and your intracellular levels via EXAtest don't show much progress off the the low range. That doesn't necessarily mean the test is infective for you, and it may well indicate, as it seems have done with me, that I simply needed a bucket load more Mag to raise my needle at all.

Also, after 16 years of progression of my AFIB/Flutter, in late 2007 I had a Pro-Arrhythmic one-to-one flutter episode when taking a FLEC PIP dose one early morning when (and note: this never happened at least a dozen times I took the FLEC PIP previously). But this time there FLEC PIP without any BB or CCB on board, flipped me into aggressive persistent AFIB that was non-stop regardless of many unsuccessful interventions to stop it, until I finally got rid of the entire mess with a two part expert ABL process with Andrea Natale over a decade ago.

One other point, once you find an overall Mag intake dose that correlates reasonably closely with symptoms, I see no need at all to continue with expensive EXAtest dosing since while there wasn't a fine-tuned correlation between the same day EXAtests and RBC Mag tests I did, at least they all told the same general story of either a lower or higher repletion level of Magnesium that were pretty consistent with each other.

Shannon

Thank you Shannon, for your observations from your personal experiences. Obviously, it makes sense about the genetic wasting influence. I had childhood glomerulonephritis and was told that I could have problems with kidney function as an adult or senior. My AF didn't begin until I was 59 and most likely that was at least contributory to managing electrolytes appropriately.

I've only had two of the ExaTest. The first showed low Mg and imbalances in the other electrolytes.
I really pushed the Mg and made the other changes. I went from having almost weekly, prolonged AF events sometimes lasting 20 hours or more down to zero and as I've posted in the past... I nearly cancelled (my first) ablation procedure with Dr. Natale. However, when the notice arrived about changes in my insurance plan, I decided to proceed because I didn't want to lose the 'Natale' opportunity... which lasted 11 years.

That said... those of us who may have some genetic 'flaw' or physical influence as part of aging, may continue to have difficulty maintaining the proper electrolyte absorption/assimilation balances required for NSR or there are entirely other factors that are influences over that activity often related to lifestyle factors.

The 'take home' message is, however.... all the more reason to get a baseline so you can be aware. I agree with you that there is no need for multiple ExaTests. I will always continue to supplement with magnesium and be mindful of the proper electrolyte ratios that keep my body functioning well.

Jackie

Thank you Shannon for your personal story!
So, would it be a good idea to take a BB prior to taking Flec as PIP and how long prior?
Thanks, Joe

Quote
Shannon
Good point SAFIB,
And that is one reason why I wound up running total of 9 EXAtest tests for myself back in the day when AFIB/Flutter was still a big problem for me, to try to see if there were any consistent levels that at least correlated with my symptoms? And I did find that to be the case. Although, with 9 test samples it was obviously limited data to draw any firm conclusions from, nevertheless, at the time I cross-checked each EXAtest with RBC tests drawn on the same morning as each of the 9 EXAtest scraping samples taken.

One seeming constant I found was that I clearly needed to take in very large doses of Magnesium for my EXAtest reading to really respond by moving off the super low readings on their scale I always showed in the early testing. And thus I need a large dose combination of 3 grams of IV Mag Sulfate in a Myers cocktails once a week for a two month period, plus 2 grams intramuscular injection of Mag Sulfate 3 days a week evenly spaced over the same total duration, and in addition to 15 sprays of Ancient Minerals Topical Mag each evening, PLUS 700mg a day of the oral Mag Glycinate!!

Only then could I move my EXAtest into a modest 'normal' range on their own scale with me achieving, at best, only a max level of 37 from my previous strongly & frankly low intracellular EXAtest levels of around 31 when taking just 800mg to 1,000mg a day of oral Magnesium glycinate as my only supplemental magnesium intake per day. These initial more or less typical doses of oral-only Mag recommended for Afibbers had little to no noticeable effect on arrhythmia suppression for me until I increased my mag intake dramatically.

After discussing my findings with Dr. Burt Silver who created the EXAtest in concert with NASA for the purpose of doing ion testing in space, and from his suggestion that, like many Afibbers he had seen take the EXAtest, I likely had a genetic wasting syndrome where my body ran through whatever magnesium I took in relatively quickly, seemed to his hypothesis as to why I likely needed such large and frequent doses of various forms of Mag to even get my levels off the floor.

Once I had moved to the mega-dosing range via Oral, IV, IM and Topical routes of Mag, not only did my symptoms show a significant reduction in both Ectopic runs and a notable, but not at all total, reduction in AFIB/ Flutter burden over the next year, but there was also a decent correlation with my last few EXAtest readings over the same time frame with my numbers finally moving off the floor to the 37 level which is 'low-normal' to 'moderate-normal' on their scale.

Moral of my experience was that it can be deceptive if one is taking a typical oral dose of Mag and your intracellular levels via EXAtest don't show much progress off the the low range. That doesn't necessarily mean the test is infective for you, and it may well indicate, as it seems have done with me, that I simply needed a bucket load more Mag to raise my needle at all.

Also, after 16 years of progression of my AFIB/Flutter, in late 2007 I had a Pro-Arrhythmic one-to-one flutter episode when taking a FLEC PIP dose one early morning when (and note: this never happened at least a dozen times I took the FLEC PIP previously). But this time there FLEC PIP without any BB or CCB on board, flipped me into aggressive persistent AFIB that was non-stop regardless of many unsuccessful interventions to stop it, until I finally got rid of the entire mess with a two part expert ABL process with Andrea Natale over a decade ago.

One other point, once you find an overall Mag intake dose that correlates reasonably closely with symptoms, I see no need at all to continue with expensive EXAtest dosing since while there wasn't a fine-tuned correlation between the same day EXAtests and RBC Mag tests I did, at least they all told the same general story of either a lower or higher repletion level of Magnesium that were pretty consistent with each other.

Shannon

Shannon,

I read your response and indeed it is an interesting story.

My issue with EXAtest is that there is no adequate information about where their reference ranges come from, for example, did they use a sufficiently large properly randomized sample to gauge their normal range. There is no literature and the company does not disclose. It is a different thing altogether to find that their normal range somehow coincided with your symptom reduction, although it is certainly interesting. If many more people with AFIB and ectopy were to carefully repeat your experiment there would be evidence one way or the other on this observation. Lacking that evidence, the only value I see in EXAtest would be its accuracy in establishing a trend, e.g., your relevant Magnesium levels are increasing. How much they should be increased to based on EXAtest ranges would be a leap of faith. Also the dosing to efficiently get you there based on previous measurements would require even more data.

Anyways, why not just assess changes based on symptoms, since that is what we care about anyways? The only disadvantage would be that you might not be moving the needle and might prematurely give up. But is this a limitation if you go up to bowel tolerance as is usually recommended here? I guess I see the point if you were to consider extensive IM and topical Magnesium as you did. I don't see it as useful for establishing a baseline in any case. It's usefulness would involve multiple measurements to detect change, and also a target if you believe in their unsubstantiated reference ranges. That's potentially a lot of EXAtesting.

Peter

If Exatest isn’t accurate then I’m not so sure RBC is either as I did four different tests and find no pattern. Around a year ago I started dosing heavily around 2000mg of elemental magnesium and 3 months later my RBC was 7.8 I stopped and three months later it showed 7.4, followed by another 7.3 without any dosing for three months. This last one showed 7.0 while I was taking around 2000mg for a month. Is there any danger here with magnesium overdose if you only did the RBC test? For me magnesium is the only thing that stops all ectopics when I take around a minimum of 1500mg a day, but I am afraid to continue in this range given that my blood levels are high in the 7 range. My kidneys are healthy and fell fine with no side effects. My GP saw my results and said to cut it down to 500mg but that just brings back the ectopics. Any suggestions?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2019 03:37AM by johnnyS.

johnnyS,

Have you tried recommended medical treatments for ectopy, like low dose beta blockers, calcium channel blockers, or other antiarrhythmics ? Low dose prophylactically can be at very small dosages with a potentially different profile for side effects and sustained efficacy than conventional dosages. For example, Flecainide might be prescribed at 25 mg or less for this purpose, which is far less than PIP treatments. I had a lot of success with very low dose Propranolol (5 - 10 mg daily depending on how I felt) for some mixture of PVCs and PACs with no side effects. Which med and what dosage seems to require some experimentation which my EP was willing to do. For example, I have classic vagal afib but the Propranolol was effective. Interestingly, at this very low dose of Propranolol I had less side effects than Magnesium supplementation, where the latter aggravated my bradycardia.

I don't read much about this approach here, the emphasis is on Magnesium and supplements. Maybe others have tried it and it doesn't work for them. Or tried conventional dosages and had a hard time with side effects.

Peter

Quote
safib
johnnyS,

Have you tried recommended medical treatments for ectopy, like low dose beta blockers, calcium channel blockers, or other antiarrhythmics ? Low dose prophylactically can be at very small dosages with a potentially different profile for side effects and sustained efficacy than conventional dosages. For example, Flecainide might be prescribed at 25 mg or less for this purpose, which is far less than PIP treatments. I had a lot of success with very low dose Propranolol (5 - 10 mg daily depending on how I felt) for some mixture of PVCs and PACs with no side effects. Which med and what dosage seems to require some experimentation which my EP was willing to do. For example, I have classic vagal afib but the Propranolol was effective. Interestingly, at this very low dose of Propranolol I had less side effects than Magnesium supplementation, where the latter aggravated my bradycardia.

I don't read much about this approach here, the emphasis is on Magnesium and supplements. Maybe others have tried it and it doesn't work for them. Or tried conventional dosages and had a hard time with side effects.

Peter

Peter,

I did consider it but there are so many side effects that I’m scared to try them honestly. My last EP visit for an Echo with Dr. Undesser who recommended magnesium oxide around 500mg and told me it was my best chance to get rid of them, or try low dose of beta blocker if it didn’t work. When I told him how much I was taking, he said as long I don’t feel any different my body was getting rid of it but to follow up with my GP who then advised to not go over 500mg.

Quote
anneh
I have been using Cardiovascular Research Mag Taurate in the morning but recently discovered it was found high in arsenic in 2016 and there doesn't seem to be any way to find out if they eliminated the cause.

I to am curious how you found it was high in arsenic.
I think I had some magnesium that was high in arsenic but couldn't prove it.

Quote
Shannon
Good point SAFIB,
And that is one reason why I wound up running total of 9 EXAtest tests for myself back in the day when AFIB/Flutter was still a big problem for me, to try to see if there were any consistent levels that at least correlated with my symptoms?

Thank you for the information Shannon - would you mind telling us how often you had the nine tests done? Exa Test told me today that they recommend the test quarterly to start, but I'm wondering what other people did

Thanks!