Katesshadow's "Low Calcium" post holds the key to the cause and remission of much Lone Afib, IMHO

Four topics below this one is the topic of "Low Calcium Related to Heart Rhythm", with a first post by Katesshadow.

IMHO that first post and the initial two replies to it are absolutely central to the cause and remission of much Lone atrial fibrillation, and the whole issue should receive MUCH wider coverage and debate so that more people can enjoy the benefits of complete remission without ablation or medication, similar to GeorgeN and myself. I have posted a long comment there, with some details of my own "Low Calcium" experiences (in two separate senses!). So this post, and accordingly the title of this Topic, is just to draw attention to Katesshadow's highly-relevant Topic/thread.

I've always been under the impression that high levels of Ca inside the cardiac cells increased rather than decreased PACs/arrhythmia, and I'm not sure how increasing serum levels of Ca would help with that!.

Moreover, George N found that reducing (rather than increasing) Ca went a long way towards reducing his AF.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2019 08:13AM by mwcf.

Steve - while the effects of low calcium may be an influence in some cases of arrhythmia, it's definitely not the the norm and focusing on additional calcium as a remedy should be viewed with extreme caution.

Typically, it's very easy to get plenty of calcium from diet... but not so, with magnesium. That can lead to a variety of problems including cardiac arrhythmias and the associated symptomatic skipped beats, PACs, ectopy, etc.

Most afibbers are low in intracellular magnesium and adding calcium just makes the situation worse. Testing of intracellular levels is important before embarking on any regimen that adds additional calcium to ensure that there is a true need...otherwise excess calcium not only causes hyperexcitability of cells, but also calcifications in soft tissue areas that are serious health risks. The body must have a healthy magnesium status to use calcium properly... and excesses of calcium are well-known to cause many health problems in addition to those symptoms related to arrhythmia.

I was about to offer a new post on addressing the recent prevalence of posts about PACS and ectopic beats.... and I will do that in the next few days...as it relates to this topic... but, meanwhile......

From the classic book by magnesium researcher, the late MildredS.Seelig, MD, MPH... The Magnesium Factor

Magnesium and calcium - A delicate balance

Magnesium and calcium are very similar in their chemistry, but biologically, these two elements function and react very differently. In effect, they are two sides of a physiological coin: they have actions that oppose one another, yet they function as a team. For example:

- Calcium exists mainly outside of cells, whereas almost all magnesium is found inside cells.
- Calcium excites nerves; whereas magnesium calms them down.
- Calcium (with potassium) is necessary for muscle contraction, whereas magnesium is necessary for muscles to relax.
- Calcium is necessary for the blood-clotting reaction; which is so necessary for wound healing; whereas, magnesium keeps the blood flowing freely and prevents abnormal coagulation within blood vessels, where clotting reactions would be dangerous.
- Calcium is mostly found in bones and gives them much of their hardness, whereas magnesium is found mainly in soft structures. Bone matrix, the soft structure within bones, contains protein and magnesium, and gives bones some flexibility and resistance to brittleness.

The normal concentration of magnesium ion inside cells is easily 10,000 times that of intracellular calcium ions---under healthy conditions. But if the amount of magnesium in a cell falls, for any reason, calcium ions flow into the cell. With this abnormal situation, a couple things happen:

1. Higher than normal calcium inside a cell excites a lot of reactions. It pushes the cell into a hyperactive state. Heart and blood vessel cells are especially excitable because they need to react rapidly during sudden stress situations. As such, they are truly vulnerable to deficits in magnesium that allows abnormal rises in calcium, with resulting hyperactivity.
(page 14 )

I won't type the whole segment... but her closing comments Dr. Seelig observes:
......"Calcium intakes that are unduly high relative to magnesium can intensify problems caused by low magnesium in most modern diets. Calcium is an important, essential nutrient, but it must be guarded and controlled and balanced by adequate magnesium, if it is not to cause damage to cells and the body as a whole. " (p 16)

Additional references to the Calcium problem can be found in the book by Cardiologist, Thomas E. Levy, MD, JD... Death by Calcium...

Jackie

Jackie, your comments on Ca and Mg sound right to me.
Our food brings a lot more Ca than Mg, and it's bad for afibbers like me.
There are some kinds of meal I really like I should avoid, and it's typically those which are high on Na and Ca. Swiss raclette (melted cheese with boiled potatoes and cold meats) is really bad unless I resist eating more than a very small portion (it's hard, because I like cheese so much).
I'm sure a low calcium low sodium (and moderate carbohydrates) diet would help me a lot; and I'm nearly sure Ca and Na are worst for me than a couple of beers, some chocolate and coffee.

It's striking (or is it) how fast your prediction of knee-jerk reaction was validated. It's an interesting hypothesis you've proposed, that increased calcium intake results in overshoot and eventually lower serum calcium, yielding arrhythmia. It is not unlike the reaction of hypoglycemics to sugar. So you are advocating for decreased calcium intake, even in the presence of perhaps marginally lower and transient calcium levels causing symptoms. I would ignore the noise and try to get someone interested in doing dose response studies with calcium boluses.

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safib
I would ignore the noise and try to get someone interested in doing dose response studies with calcium boluses.

That would be a dangerous study. I wouldn't volunteer for it.

Question for all of you experts in electrolytes imbalance. Why is it that every time I take supplement of Vitamin D3 even in smaller dose of 2000iu I get more ectopics and my calcium shoots up around 10mg? I have tested this three different times with blood labs and found definite connection with Vitamin D3 supplements and calcium levels increase.

Vitamin D increases Ca absorption. For you (and me) that means more Ca and less Mg in cardiac cells = irritability in the form of ectopics.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2019 04:40PM by mwcf.

Wow, I already limit my calcium intake to less than 200mg a day. So being low in Vitamin D right now, how do you go about raising it then?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2019 04:47PM by johnnyS.

Thank you for the post Steve!
The thyroid connection is interesting for me because my TSH has been going up. Have to find out how it relates to the parathyroid.
Interestingly, my AF is at bay right now. Wonder if it has to do with possibly higher vit D levels, now that it is summer here (Melbourne) and i spend a fair bit of time outside?

Suggest you read www.carrafibdietinfo.com and things will become a lot clearer

Vitamin D3 should increase Ca absorption through the gut, but also direct the Ca into the bones and not the soft tissue. If it is causing issues, you might consider taking your Ca intake to zero (or as close as possible). Dairy industry ads notwithstanding, a healthy adult body between the ages of about 18 to 70 really needs very little calcium, if any, at all.

Yes I did read Steve's website and no I did not see where he discusses anything other than keeping Calcium intake very low and as I stated already my Ca intake is already minimal to none but if I attempt Vitamin D3 supplements even at low dosages then Calcium spikes up quickly and more ectopics occur. So If you understand this better than me and what I am trying to ask then please do help me understand it. I would really appreciate it. Thank you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2019 09:52PM by johnnyS.

I recall Steve's posts from years ago. His analytical approach is excellent. When I first joined here in 2004, there were quite a few posters who had an approach like Steve's. If someone wants to "hack" their afib, Emulating Steve's painstaking appraoch would be a good place to start. Here is the link to Steve's post in the thread below. Steve's own site is worthy of study. Here is a search on Steve's prior posts.

"Over almost nine years, there were 96 individual factors which I systematically varied. Many of these were varied in both a positive (increased) and, separately, a negative (decreased) manner. "

"My approach was to vary only one factor at a time, and to allow that variation typically two weeks to see if any reduction (or increase) of ectopic beats occurred. I had noticed early on that this time period was adequate to identify changes in the frequency of ectopics which resulted from the first two effective factors that I identified, which are described below, and I considered that the long-term time constraints involved in sequentially testing many factors therefore made this a suitable duration over which to run each individual test. "


I can relate. While creating my program, I would sample ectopic beats during a 30 minutue or longer meditation every morning using a recording (r to r or beat to beat) heart rate monitor. I would count ectopics and try to relate it to what I was doing. I was lucky and came to an approach which was "good" enough for me fairly quickly. I'm not saying that what I do or what Steve does will work for others. However, his analytical appraoch is an excellent guide for figuring out what the impact variables are for a person. Requires discipline, but it is an excellent approach!

George

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johnnyS
Yes I did read Steve's website and no I did not see where he discusses anything other than keeping Calcium intake very low and as I stated already my Ca intake is already minimal to none but if I attempt Vitamin D3 supplements even at low dosages then Calcium spikes up quickly and more ectopics occur. So If you understand this better than me and what I am trying to ask then please do help me understand it. I would really appreciate it. Thank you.

Ah, i wasn't clear that my response was to mwcf's post.
Anyway, from what i understand of Steve's experience (hope he clarifies it all!) would be to try other variables in your diet? Have you tried Cranberries?
Of course, as he mentioned, there are may other variables and i'd love to find something that works for me as well.
I got some inspiration from Steve's experience which beats anything i've ever been told by the cardiologists/ EPs i consulted with.

The para thyroid/calcium relationship interests me in particular. Wonder what your thyroid/para thyroid values are, Johnny?
So far my THS is 7.6 and T3, T4 are in the lower normal range. No anti thyroid factors found. I'll get more tests soon.

Thanks to all who have responded.

Please excuse my brevity in the following replies (listed in the same order as the responses to my post above).


mwcf : Yes, "reducing (rather than increasing) Ca", is what I'm suggesting too (and what I do). I tried to make that clear. The minutiae of exactly what happens by the time we get to the intracellular level are just one more thing affected by the huge (and incompletely understood) intricacies of the body's Ca homeostasis mechanisms, involving VitD, PTH, Ca intake, Mg intake, calcitonin, calcitriol, albumin, phosphate, calbindin, a few other things, and the many powerful feedback loops between all of those! As I say, it's incompletely understood. But in the end, for at least Lone afibbers, it's likely that they (we) are doing just one or two relatively simple things different from what we did for millions of years, and it's only those things we need to track down. I'm suggesting they include getting much less VitD (well, we KNOW that is true for the great majority of people), and getting far more Ca than before dairying came along (extremely recently in human history, and therefore we're not all genetically optimised for it!). So there's good evidence that the first thing every Lone afibber should do is get their VitD to ~170nmol/L, then experiment with reduced Ca intakes. Once they've optimised those, then try a few other things if they still have ectopics/AF.


Jackie : I'm not sure whether you have misunderstood what I said.


Pompon : Your comments are evidence in agreement.


Safib : Your comments interpret my contribution correctly. Your analogy of the hypoglycemics is the kind of phenomenon. There are also similar "paradoxical" phenomena involving the thyroid organ and various thyroid diseases also, and all of these have in common that they involve highly complex and sensitive "feedback loops".

I would not be trying anyone with Ca doses though -- unless it was purely out of interest for any heavy-ectopics-sufferer to see whether a single low dose temporarily eliminated their ectopics. That would be reasonable evidence of another person in this "transiently-low serum Ca" state. IMHO, that person would then be another excellent candidate to try the overall-low-Ca-intake, high-VitD that I'm suggesting.


Carey : Your comment is a reply to Safib -- But just for clarity, as I say, I'm not advocating increased Ca intake for anyone.


Joe : Re your comment about summer remission from afib and higher VitD levels, which supports what I'm saying, see Elizabeth's post in the original Katesshadow "Calcium" Topic/thread, four threads below this thread, and also her reference to an earlier survey of afibbers and the winter/summer/afib/VitD connection, all of which similarly support my view. Re your comments on parathyroid/thyroid, this is off-topic, but since I happen to know a bit about the situation you may be in, I'll comment as follows : the parathyroid gland is located within the thyroid gland, and although I'm not particularly aware of any direct effects of iodine on the parathyroid gland, it is hard to believe that inappropriate intakes would be good for it! The reason I mention that is that your TSH is obviously elevated, but before your Doc immediately puts you on thyroid meds, you should definitely check that your iodine intake is not just adequate but optimum, like 300 mcg/day, say. I think I last read that 70% of Aussies are thought to be subclinically hypothyroid due to inadequate iodine intake since its use in dairying was discontinued!! You should do an estimate of what you get from eggs (43 mcg per 2 large Aussie eggs www.enc.org.au) and seafood, and immediately supplement to reach a total of 300mcg/day, then see what your TSH is after a few months (as well as any effect on afib). Unlike many other Western countries, there is no government-mandated iodine supplementation of foods or salt in Australia, so unless you get enough eggs or seafood, you ARE gonna be short!


johnnyS : mwcf has responded correctly to you re high VitD increasing Ca absorption from the gut. However, that by no means automatically implies more Ca inside cells! That depends largely upon your total Ca intake, and also some other factors, due to the immense complexity of the Ca homeostasis apparatus and its many feedback mechanisms.

Your comment that you limit Ca below 200mg/d is extremely interesting. Do you mean 200mg of Ca supplement? 200mg is actually quite hard to get down to with any version of a Western diet. How have you calculated this? If you can give me more info I may be able to shed light on your situation.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2019 10:07PM by SteveCarr.

Thank you Steve. I'll have these tests done in the near future. Three years ago when i first went into AF i was hyperthyroid, TSH 0.2.
GP says hypo does not initiate AF - something did a few months ago for 5 weeks persistent.

Steve,

Let me first explain that I don't have afib yet, I have PACs around 5-20 a day and this has caused me to take drastic measures in order to delay or avoid all together if possible the onset of afib. My dad got afib at 71 and I am probably on my way to getting it eventually via genetics.

My diet for the last 9 months consists of salmon, chicken breast and one egg three times a week for protein, lots of avocado, spinach, kale, organic coconut water, and fresh fruits. Nothing else is in my diet. No alcohol, sugars or anything else. I stopped consuming all the calcium foods minus 1 egg three times a week and the daily intake of coconut water which has very little of calcium. So my calcium intake is only from food around 100-200mg a day. Even so, if I take any Vitamins D3 I notice sudden increase in ectopics, I confirmed this with three different blood labs with Ca spike each time increasing from 9.4mg to around 10mg. The only other thing I could think of would be Hyperparathyroidism but my labs don't indicate that so kind of lost here.

PTH was 28pg/ml

TSH was 1.790 uIU/ml, T4 free was 1.44ng/dl, T3 free was 3.2pg/ml

Joe:

Your M.D. is wrong, hypo and hyper both can cause AF, of course Hyper will cause AF more so. What do you take for your thyroid, whatever it is you need to increase it your numbers all indicate it. Sounds like your thyroid problems caused your AF, I was hyper thyroid which caused my AF.

Liz

Thank you Liz!
You encouraged me to look a bit further Even though it is on rats i think it's worthwhile to keep the results in mind for AFers?
[www.ahajournals.org];

johnnyS: The diet you indicate does sound as though it could reflect a Ca intake below 200mg, depending upon what quantity of salmon you are talking about and whether you eat the bones -- but probably you've looked at that since you're obviously taking it seriously. According to what you write, there are no other obvious traps like the Ca-fortified flours/grains/cereals that are so common, or most nuts, or chocolate. Just in case you haven't considered them, there are some more obscure traps, like some molasses (as I discovered to my cost), many Ca-fortified fruit juices, most dried fruits, and a few fresh fruits (like red/white/blackcurrants -- which I also discovered to my cost), and other fortified foods -- even ones not labelled as such.

I was going to mention actual parathyroid ailments in my first reply to you, but held off. There are complex variants, with apparently "paradoxical" manifestations, like with the many complexities of the thyroid gland, but that's all very specialised stuff, and on the face of it your PTH looks normal.

It sounds as though you are saying that it is the holding of your Ca below 200mg/day that is holding your ectopics as low as 5 to 20 per day, which is no surprise to me given what I'm saying; and on a brighter note, at that modest ectopics level you may not be too close to getting afib. Since you're making such a determined effort (and I totally agree with that), presumably you also exclude all stimulants like caffeine and theobromides (chocolate again).

You’ve mentioned time constraints, but I have to ask...cranberries. Fresh, dried? Will supplements work?

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Catherine
You’ve mentioned time constraints, but I have to ask...cranberries. Fresh, dried? Will supplements work?

If you look at Steve's posts from a few years ago, I recall, when I read at the time, he went into more detail. A search on all his posts <[www.afibbers.org]

George

Thanks, George.

Thank you Steve and others.

Catherine:

Dried cranberries I haven't tried (as a regular dose for afib), but the only common ones here are loaded with sugar anyway. Fresh are unavailable here.

I permanently use frozen, which are no-added-sugar and are perfectly economical (need to blend them with other fruit/veg to eat any quantity). More details on my website.

Steve,

You are obviously on the right track for you and possibly others but not necessarily for the rest of us.
I for one get plenty of vitD from the sun (living in New Zealand) and intake very little Ca. My potassium levels for years have been 4.8 or there abouts and too much magnesium will trigger AF (500mgs).
I don't get or feel estopics or noticed any on my ECG readings so don't have any way of knowing what affects what, so it's long term trial and error for me between afib events. Which is about every 3 to 4 months now, even in the peek of summer.

I read recently that all afibbers whether in NSR or not have lower blood flow through the heart compared to non afibbers, and it's low voltage that set off afib caused by what ever. In my case I suspect it's not enough sleep sometimes. I don't think it's high Ca.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2019 03:01PM by colindo.

Colindo,

Just wondering how magnesium can trigger AF? I don't have AF but have been taking around 1500mg of elemental magnesium daily and have never heard of anything like that so just curious.

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johnnyS
Colindo,

Just wondering how magnesium can trigger AF? I don't have AF but have been taking around 1500mg of elemental magnesium daily and have never heard of anything like that so just curious.

It did for me. I think it was Dr Formulated garden of life magnesium.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2019 11:57PM by colindo.

JohnnyS : Now learning that you use that much Mg per day, at a very low Ca intake, one wonders whether if (ie I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out) that has something to do with your otherwise very curious observation of serum Ca and ectopics increasing whenever you increase Vit D. They all act on each other, and the feedback loops are so labyrinthine that nothing would surprise unless you've tested it. Were you already taking that much Mg when you first reduced your Ca intake? ie, have you already checked your ectopic frequency at the low Ca intake and without all that Mg, and whether you can then increase VitD without obvious adverse consequences? Seems worth checking, although it must be admitted that crashing from the starkly unnatural 1500 mg of Mg per day, when you are only on the also fairly unnatural "100 to 200" mg of Ca per day, is all a bit of a trip in the dark. Gently might be in order. So you might have to (say) halve the Mg and see whether a particular amount or level of VitD causes as much spike in serum Ca and/or ectopics as it apparently did for you before. If it doesn't, and/or if it reduces ectopics, then you could halve the Mg again and increase the VitD again. By "natural", I'm referring to anything we might have plausibly got for millions of years. Throughout that period it would have been very unusual to get very far from about a 1:1 ratio either way (like say to 2:1 either way). As you know, I found that lowering the Ca (which you've certainly done) but at high VitD -- which you haven't done -- was far more important (more effective) for me than increasing the Mg. But not everyone here will agree with that.

Steve,

Interesting point which I haven't considered but willing to give it a try. I have been taking this high dose of Mg for over 9 months while keeping Ca low. I'll lower the Mg intake and start VitD see where it takes me.

Thank you.

Sorry, Steve - I did misunderstand... and should never respond when I am otherwise 'distracted'....

I do have a question, though... and that involves the increasing of vitamin D levels and the resulting increased circulating calcium.

For clarity... Did I miss it or are you not suggesting that to go along with increasing vitamin D3 - cholecalciferol... one should also start adding the specific form of vitamin K ( aka K2 MK 7 or menaquinone 7) to help direct circulating calcium into bones so the patient does not risk soft tissue and arterial calcium deposits?

That's been a standard preventive recommendation for around 20 years since the research out of the University of Maastricht indicated the importance of vitamin K2 MK7 to help keep calcium controlled along with improving bone health.

Thanks,
Jackie

[www.afibbers.org]

This is so right on time and strange. I am about 18 months post succesful ablation from Natale and have been doing great, PAC's and PVC's not all gone but pretty much so. Today and last day or so I have been noticing more PVC's and PAC's so much so I took out my Kardia which I have not done in 6 months and emailed a few strips to St. Davids. They are fine, just ectopics.

The one change I have made, started taking magnesium nightly (200mg) about 2 week ago to help with headaches and vitamin D(1000mg) , 1 week ago, figuring it was winter. Keep in mind I have not thought about my Kardia in 6 months or longer at least so enough of a change I went for it.

Not a lot compared to what some take around here but interesting given this thread.

I didn't notice anything on 1 week of Mg, now adding Vitamin D who knows, could just be my time for more PVC's, that's the hard part of course, but very coincidental to say the least.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2019 08:15PM by Fibrillator.

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Fibrillator
This is so right on time and strange. I am about 18 months post succesful ablation from Natale and have been doing great, PAC's and PVC's not all gone but pretty much so. Today and last day or so I have been noticing more PVC's and PAC's so much so I took out my Kardia which I have not done in 6 months and emailed a few strips to St. Davids. They are fine, just ectopics.

The one change I have made, started taking magnesium nightly (200mg) about 2 week ago to help with headaches and vitamin D(1000mg) , 1 week ago, figuring it was winter. Keep in mind I have not thought about my Kardia in 6 months or longer at least so enough of a change I went for it.

Not a lot compared to what some take around here but interesting given this thread.

I didn't notice anything on 1 week of Mg, now adding Vitamin D who knows, could just be my time for more PVC's, that's the hard part of course, but very coincidental to say the least.

Yeah, too much magnesium is not supposed to do that.

I started taking an extra 325mgs nightly to help with sleep, (I was also taking 300mgs in the morning) two weeks later I get afib after being free for 4 months, then again two weeks after that. Stopped taking the magnessium and the afib events stopped.

Two afib events in two weeks, two weeks after I started taking an extra 325mg of magnessium,....... strange.???

Colindo:

I sometime wonder about Magnesium, I take Mag. Bisglycinate pwd. I put a teaspoon in some water and drink it about an hour before bed. I have been getting sort of a sick feeling in my stomach almost like I would like to throw up but don't. It has helped with pacs, not sure if it really helps with AF. I can't take more then that 1 teaspoon, 1 t. equals 250 mg. my blood value is good. I just seem to have more problems than most on taking supplements. I eat a lot of my home grown veggies and fruits so maybe I don't need many supplements.

Liz

Steve,

Just wondered if you ever considered taking Natto in place of cranberries, Natto has an acidifying effect see below.
I have had some success taking Natto, upset by doubling my magnesium intake. I was 4 month free of afib before that.
You recommended to johnnyS to halve his magnesium intake, do you think too much magnesium can unbalance the calcium vitD ratio?
Natto has other advantages over cranberries, too many to mention now, except it's high in vitamin K2.

Maybe a diet of both would be ideal, one day cranberries and the next Natto, with eggs for lunch.

What do you think.

Colin



Natto yeast, which ferments soybeans into natto, is not easily destroyed by heat, drives fermentation in the intestines, and acidizes the intestinal environment. Acidification makes it easy for good bacteria living in the intestines to increase, which in turn prevents the increase of bad bacteria.

Colindo and all... re: magnesium intake. There are several factors to consider. The form of magnesium is definitely one as some are better than others for certain individuals as we have noted from the various testimonials. There can also be (for some) consideration of where the raw magnesium materials are sourced. If the magnesium also contains residues or impurities from various sources that might be 'excitotoxic' for that individual, then it's likely that 'foreign particle' that can cause problems rather than the magnesium itself. It could be in the magnesium raw material, the production line, the plant where produced, bulk shipping container contaminants, and all of the potential handling issues that can be encountered when Good Manufacturing Practices and Quality Assurances are not part of the bottler's criteria.

Another factor to consider is ... just because you take the magnesium, doesn't automatically guarantee that it will reach the target...which is cells' interiors -- in this case... the heart cell. Many interferences can occur... if the magnesium form breaks down in the stomach's digestive secretion milieu and binds with something else (there), it may not have the ability to pass through the cell's receptor sites and then actively function intracellularly... which would still leave you short on IC magnesium.

Another potential for low IC magnesium or magnesium deficiency occurs when the cell's outer envelope (itself) that contains the various receptor sites is damaged by bad fats, chemicals and other interferences that affect the cells' fluidity and functionality and even if the magnesium would arrive 'in tact' at the receptor site, if damaged, the magnesium can't get in.

For another target, the field of Lipid Replacement Therapy pioneered by Garth Nicholson PhD and Rita Ellithorpe, M.D. has produced extensive evidence that cell membrane damage and the specific nutrients involved in LRT repairs damaged mitochondria and restores functionality.... as mentioned in the recent Mitochondria report.

So... once again, just because you take the magnesium, doesn't guarantee it reaches the target cells. The same is true for all nutrients and this would be from food sources or supplement. The nutrients have to be able to pass through the receptor sites (intact) and there are numerous known causes of damage and interference.

Regarding your comment about increasing calcium… and from the same reference in other post on The High Blood Pressure Solution, GeorgeN. mentioned… … page 65 The dissolved calcium inside a healthy living cell should be kept more than 10,000 times lower than outside. Keeping the calcium low is especially important in a muscle cell, because even a small rise in the calcium inside will cause the muscle to contract.
(The heart is a muscle – my comment).

And - On the Vitamin D3 supplementation… always remember that if you take therapeutic amounts, it’s essential to also take the Vitamin K2 as MK7 or Menaquinone 7 to help direct circulating calcium from the blood to bones where it helps make strong bones… and out of the arteries where it causes arterial calcifications. Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) is a powerful nutrient that should not be overlooked for health and longevity. Regular testing is imperative and if you take the higher dosing …5,000 – 10,000 IU daily, then you absolutely must take the MK7.

Jackie

Jackie,

After reading the label again on the Garden of life Dr Formulated Magnesium I notice it includes 120 mg of sodium (per serving of 1 teaspoon which includes 350 mg Mag.) and contains Sodium Bicarbonate. Would this have an alkalizing effect and neutralize the acidifying effect of Natto?
This may explain the two afib events I got after taking Dr Formulated Magnesium. Also with my normal high sodium level (145 mmol/L +) I don't think more would be helping.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2019 04:41PM by colindo.

Colindo - Liz wrote in the General Forum about her experience with the Dr. Formulated Magnesium... and you responded with a link indicating the culprit might be the brown rice protein which has the arsenic component for the source of magnesium (350 mg)...and, as many natural plants do have an affinity for uptake of arsenic in the soil..... so here again, sleuthing out the source of magnesium, confirms: it is organic brown rice protein... and it may be the culprit for you as well...and it's a generous dose at 350 mg. For that very reason, I would not want to be using that magnesium product.

As for neutralizing the acidifying effect of Natto... my Alkaline/Acid food (ash) chart for indicates that Soy products are slightly acidic at 4.5 on the scale with 4.0 being neutral so that might indicate that the sodium bicarb ingredient contributes to the alkalizing effect of the whole product. ...

Remember that this is metabolized food and the pH measurement is of the ash produced by metabolism... this is not the same as blood pH which must be held to a close tolerance or serious health consequences result.


Also the electrolyte/minerals, sodium, potassium, calcium and magnesium are all alkaline and would metabolize as alkaline ash as well.

I'll check in the "alkaline ash" type books I have to see if there is something to add that would be useful.

However, I do feel that it well could be the residue of arsenic in the brown rice protein .... which may affect highly sensitive individuals more dramatically than the typical or general population. Very often, afibbers are in the more sensitive group.

I have no idea if the location where the brown rice is grown would have a higher risk of elevated arsenic content or not and knowing where Garden of Life sources its brown rice protein raw materials might give a clue as to the potential for a higher arsenic content in the magnesium from the rice plants. My first thought would be to learn the source location and then check to see the prevalence of soil arsenic content in that general area is higher than typical. I would also want to know the stats on arsenic toxicity and how easily it is eliminated from the body (or not) once ingested.


Jackie

PS - Some may take higher amounts of magnesium in one dose without issue, but I prefer to keep my doses at or around 200 mg/dose.

Thanks Jackie,

I had forgotten about the arsenic in the brown rice warning I had posted to Liz. It didn’t occur to me that may be the cause of my afib events, I see on the lable it is made in USA from food grown in USA and other countries. So who knows where it comes from.

Colin



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2019 10:18PM by colindo.

Quote
Jackie

And - On the Vitamin D3 supplementation… always remember that if you take therapeutic amounts, it’s essential to also take the Vitamin K2 as MK7 or Menaquinone 7 to help direct circulating calcium from the blood to bones where it helps make strong bones… and out of the arteries where it causes arterial calcifications. Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) is a powerful nutrient that should not be overlooked for health and longevity. Regular testing is imperative and if you take the higher dosing …5,000 – 10,000 IU daily, then you absolutely must take the MK7.

Jackie

Jackie, I've read a warning relative to blood thinners on the MK7 packaging. It seems it's not recommended taking it while taking a blood thinner. Taking a lower dose of vitamin D3 does not require taking menaquinone or do I miss something?

Pompon - The precaution or warning relates to those blood thinners such as warfarin/Coumadin that work as vitamin K antagonists. This is specifically Vitamin K1 or phylloquinone which is involved in the clotting mechanism.

The K2 MK7 ...which is menaquinone does not interfere with vitamin K1 or warfarin. In fact, it's recommended for those on warfarin as an adjunct to help prevent the side effects of long-term warfarin which is arterial and other soft tissue calcifications such as lung tissue calcifications. Those patients just have to be cautious with the proper dosing of the K2 MK7.

Often included in a vitamin K product, is the K2 MK4 or menatetrenone which is similar to K2 MK7 but much shorter duration for effectiveness. The experts who speak on the topic of reducing and actually preventing the arterial calcifications say that the use of nattokinase is recommended with warfarin as the component is the K2 MK7.

The newer anticoagulant, Eliquis or apixaban works on "Factor Xa" as does Rivaroxaban... avoiding the K 1 issue.

It's always smart to take the MK7 when using vitamin D supplements because the MK7 function which is to help direct circulating calcium in blood into bone cells where it is useful ... it's 'insurance' that helps prevent arterial and other soft tissue calcifications that should not occur. Or take nattokinase or eat the natto food.

A number of years ago, and before the Factor Xa NOACS became available, I offered a post on this topic...you can check the details at this link:

[www.afibbers.org]

Hope this helps clarify.

Jackie

Thanks, Jackie.