Low Calcium Related to Heart Rhythm

I was checking out "my chart" this morning to see what my magnesium and potassium levels were when my Afib was diagnosed. Both were normal (Potassium 3.6 mmol/L) and Magnesium (2.2 mg/dL)

However, i noticed my Calcium was a little low (8.3 mg/dL). When I looked this up, I noticed on of the symptoms of low calcium could be a heart rhythm disorder.

I know I can't cure my Afib by increasing Calcium, but I do think it would be good to supplement. Is it better to do this with diet or supplements? I would appreciate suggestions.

Also, I am taking a Calcium Channel Blocker (norvasc)? I hate to sound dumb, but are these the same "calciums"?

Your potassium is at the bare minimum of the normal range. That's more likely to cause ectopics than calcium levels. Your body has vast stores of calcium available in bones so you'd have to have a severe deficiency for calcium to become a factor in heart rhythm disorders. But being a woman makes you more prone to osteoporosis so adding calcium to your diet is probably a good idea. Diet is always superior to supplements.

Be careful with calcium (with respect to afib). In my case, I'd worked out a very successful afib remission program. It worked well for years. Then I went through a divorce. Started stress eating wheels of brie (since I eat a low carb diet, thought I had a free pass). My previously excellent control deteriorated. I thought it was divorce stress and there was nothing to be done except make an appointment with Dr. Natale. After 18 or so months, life had settled down and I reread much of the literature on PubMed and here. Realized calcium could be the culprit. I quit the cheese and my afib control returned to its excellent pre-divorce levels - and has remained this way for a number of years.

The body normally tries to keep calcium in serum at a very constant level.

Thanks Carey and George.

I’ve previously commented on this site (although not for quite a while: eg before Carey was a regular contributor I think) about my own complete remission from 10 years of severe paroxysmal Lone Afib and extremely frequent ectopics, without ablation or medication. I also provided a link to my own website where I describe in detail how that was and is accomplished. I do not normally post here simply due to time constraints, but I regard the blood test observations of Katesshadow ("K") and this thread to be so central to the cause, and to the fix, for many cases of Lone Afib, that it should be paid very serious attention. In my opinion, and personal experience, the essence of most Lone Atrial Fibrillation is already laid out in the few posts above.

On my own site, there is a central fact that I’ve never described or discussed. The reason is that I’ve always considered that it would seem too confusing to most readers, or even contradictory, in the light of the overall thrust of my experience and successful approach, which is to keep Ca intake low.

Along with the very rigorous, scientific approach that I took over many years (not unlike GeorgeN’s self-experimentation), I obtained many blood tests. An absolutely predictable, crucial pattern was that periods of high ectopic frequency, and/or immediately pre- or during afib, would ALWAYS show reduced serum Ca levels (and often reduced potassium). Usually only slightly so (ie well within the supposedly "acceptable" reference range), but then a person's serum Ca level is, as GeorgeN says, normally extremely tightly controlled. Indeed, the situation goes beyond even that : stable serum Ca levels are so crucial that Ca is the ONLY bodily electrolyte to which one ENTIRE ORGAN of the body is solely dedicated to maintaining precise homeostasis (stability) – the Parathyroid organ.

Why these lowered levels, now also observed by K, are fascinating and crucial is that (as reported on my site) in the early years of my AF, a small acute dose of Ca would, for a few hours, temporarily eliminate ALL ectopic beats – exactly what one would expect if (as there was) there was a serum deficiency of Ca. However, exactly as GeorgeN and I and numerous others report, an overall, ie chronic, INCREASE in Ca intake is disastrous for afib and ectopic frequency.

So, for many years now, it has been absolutely clear to me that the Parathyroid organ has a central role in afib. And now K has effectively noted this too.

Without going into endless detail (much more can be gleaned from my site carrafibdietinfo.com), I believe that many modern diets include too much Ca; and I hypothesize that this suppresses Parathyroid activity overall (a well known effect), and in such a way that the organ fails to “rebound” adequately to retain perfect homeostasis at times (perhaps relatively transient) of lowered serum Ca (usually only marginally lowered), and that this is enough to predispose to ectopics/afib in those who are genetically susceptible. At the suitably low Ca intakes I now employ, and the high VitD levels, my serum Ca levels now always come back absolutely pinned like a rock to 2.35 mmol/L (9.4 mg/dL) EXACTLY midrange on the normally-quoted acceptable range, and exactly where the purely-dedicated parathyroid gland is constantly striving to keep it with a remarkable precision unmatched by all our other electrolytes, and completely unlike my somewhat lowered levels when afib and ectopics were occurring.

I’m not claiming to have a full understanding of it : the whole parathyroid hormone(PTH)/VitaminD/Calcium/Magnesium labyrinth is an enormously complicated one, involving several other endogenous, powerful, specialist Ca-modulating chemicals also, with numerous powerful feedback loops, and is well known to still not be fully understood.

But suffice to say the following: People like GeorgeN and I have, through extremely rigorous experimentation, hugely reduced (in my case eliminated) their AF and ectopics burden, employing low Ca and high Vitamin D intakes (but intakes entirely typical of several million years of human existence, unlike most modern, post-dairying intakes of Ca and post-industrialization intakes of VitD). In addition, I have noted that, at first glance apparently paradoxically, this low-Ca/high-VitD combination is effective despite both AF and increased ectopics being characterized by LOWERED serum Ca! And now K has reported the same thing.

As a digression, I personally think that it is likely that at a somewhat lower Ca intake GeorgeN would remain free of AF even without his large Mg doses. [It is high-school chemistry that Ca & Mg have considerable chemical similarities, and Mg, for example, also acts on (and is acted upon by) the parathyroid organ, albeit not as powerfully as does and is Ca. So I believe we are looking at basically one mechanism here -- a Ca one -- albeit a complex one -- and Mg is simply a “shadow” player in the labyrinth, which is why such huge doses of Mg (eg 3,000mg/day) are required to have an impact, whereas a chronic change of just 100mg/day in Ca is enough to have disastrous consequences if it is around the critical level of any particular individual's intake threshold].

Anyway, since K’s serum Ca experience is so similar to my own (and in any case), I believe it would be very well worthwhile, and for others also, to try those parts of GeorgeN’s and my methods that are the same : Get your VitD rapidly up to about 170 nmol/L (70 ng/mL) and reduce Ca intake. A substantial “loading dose” of Vitamin D will be required if you wish to avoid a multi-month wait to reach such levels by taking only the eventual “maintenance dose” (5 x 5,000 iu per week in my case; I think approx 6 x 5,000 iu per week in GeorgeN’s case). GeorgeN may be able to advise re the required loading dose, and there are also some details on my site.

If 500mg/day of Ca doesn’t yield success once a high serum VitD level has been confirmed by testing, then 400mg/day could be tested. Significant wariness re "hidden" Ca is necessary: I give some examples on my site -- there are innumerable "Ca-fortified" foods around these days, including things one would never suspect, like many varieties of plain flour, and therefore many breads and baked goods! The USDA "Food Composition Database" gives Ca contents for the great majority of foods, and what can't be found there can be found in the Japanese, Danish, Finnish, etc, equally-free databases.

Given the huge amount of promotion in favor of high Ca intakes, some may worry about osteoporosis at lower Ca intakes. I go into detail on my site as to why I don’t believe this is a concern at the high serum-VitD levels discussed. But it is true that each must make his own judgement on the matter. Suffice to say that the medical fraternity is not unanimous on the need for, or benefit of, the Ca intakes often proposed. As far as I’m aware, there has never yet been a Ca supplementation study that showed osteoporosis benefits for those already on anything like a normal diet -- but there have been several which showed adverse cardiovascular and other outcomes!! [I’ve actually sat in on an internal hospital seminar where one of the world’s leading osteoporosis/Ca docs and his research co-workers were reviewing the results of the (then) latest UK Ca-supplement study that showed adverse effects and no positive effects. The deeply worried tone of “But this can’t be right! How can this be?!”, and general bewilderment, was something to behold! Is the whole Ca supplementation thing shaping up to be another of Medicine’s “Margarine is better than Butter” moments? But I digress.] Literally billions of people in non-Western countries are well documented to live on 300mg Ca per day, with much lower rates of osteoporosis than high-Ca Western countries.

Carey is certainly right that low potassium is pro-arrythmic. However, in my case, I discovered that similarly low potassium levels, to Katesshadow's, at the time of afib and/or ectopics, also rectified (went to 4.1mmol/L) immediately that my Ca rectified, and without adding potassium to my diet (there is plenty in mine anyway). But, certainly, potassium supplements I do not see as inherently adverse for afib, unlike Ca, exactly as GeorgeN says.

I probably won’t reply further to any responses to this (again just due to time constraints), but in that case I’d say to Katesshadow : of the regulars on this site, always listen to GeorgeN – he is the only person here I am aware of who has rigorously experimented and therefore accordingly discovered a successful approach without ablation or (usually) medication. And the only substantive areas where my own approach differs from his are in his large consumption of magnesium and fats – with me preferring and succeeding with a more “palaeo” approach of sticking entirely to things which were consumed in the relevant quantities for millions of years by our ancestors -- so we are thoroughly genetically adapted to them. But hey, if my approach didn’t work for me, and GeorgeN’s did, I’d certainly grab it in a flash rather than risk the great dangers of ablation! (Or at least with the intent to hugely delay those dangers.)

So, in summary, I hope that K and others take particular note of this thread. I do believe that K’s observation lies at the heart of Lone Afib, which I also believe, for some at least, to be largely (or possibly even entirely) a metabolic condition. Yes, the metabolic nitty-gritty of it is difficult to recognize and no doubt complex in its details – if it wasn’t, it would have been recognized and unraveled well before now. Indeed, and in particular, that complexity and obscurity manifests as this apparently “paradoxical” outcome, which is another reason it hasn't been "spotted" : that transiently low serum Ca is arrhythmic, but the correction to that apparently-depleted-Ca lies in LOW Ca intakes (but at high Vit D)!! Exactly, again, the type of highly-obscuring phenomenon that has prevented the connection from being fully recognized. So I suggest that this is a golden opportunity for at least a partial return by this website to its early days of members' experimentation, and of seeking non-invasive remedies, by Katesshadow and others following this lead reported by K.

Finally, since it's my impression that there's been a bit of an increase in outspoken contributors, and knee-jerk criticism of anything not on the routine agenda, compared to earlier years, I just ask those people to slow down a bit, ask themselves whether they TRULY know of any SOLID medical evidence that rules this out, or whether their reaction is purely knee-jerk. I apologize if the latter seems a bit provocative; it is not meant to be -- it is just better to get a serious discussion going on something that is obviously pretty central -- as shown by both GeorgeN's and my experience -- and hopefully helpful to other people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2019 05:19AM by SteveCarr.

Very interesting, impressive amount of experimentation and a great result.

But Katesshadow's calcium was low not high. Have I missed something here?

Gill (pronounced 'Jill' and female)

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Gill
Very interesting, impressive amount of experimentation and a great result.

But Katesshadow's calcium was low not high. Have I missed something here?

Gill (pronounced 'Jill' and female)

I will have to read through his post more thoroughly, but I think that he is saying that Vitamin D is what I should be focusing on? I agree with him that - at least in my particular case - the problem is with electrolytes.

I don't even think the cardiologists on call at the ER looked at these numbers and certainly at my follow-up visit with my "assigned" cardiologist, she was only interested in my blood pressure. She did not even mention my Afib! I was still so upset by the whole revelation that I didn't know what to ask.

This forum has given me SO much more information.

But, back to topic. My potassium was borderline low. Calcium was low. Another number was high (I'll have to go get the actual name) and when I did some research it showed that number would indicate low Vitamin B12.



He

Vitamin D helps the intestines absorb calcium. However, the vitamin D must first be activated or "turned on" by parathyroid hormone (PTH). Once activated, vitamin D acts to greatly increase the amount of calcium that the intestines can absorb from food, someties by as much as two to four times.



Above quote found online.

Steve:

Very interesting about Parathyroid Hormone, I don't take Ca. supplements and eat very little dairy products , however I do eat some cheese most days, my Parathyroid has been on the high side at times. In 2016 it was 66 lab value 14-64, my Ca has always tested at 9.4, values 8.-10.4, Potassium checks around 4.6. Mag. around 4.2. I note that a year ago my Parathyroid was 76 a little high. My doc. checks my Parathyroid usually.

You said:

Without going into endless detail (much more can be gleaned from my site carrafibdietinfo.com), I believe that many modern diets include too much Ca; and I hypothesize that this suppresses Parathyroid activity overall (a well known effect), and in such a way that the organ fails to “rebound” adequately to retain perfect homeostasis at times (perhaps relatively transient) of lowered serum Ca (usually only marginally lowered), and that this is enough to predispose to ectopics/afib in those who are genetically susceptible. At the suitably low Ca intakes I now employ, and the high VitD levels, my serum Ca levels now always come back absolutely pinned like a rock to 2.35 mmol/L (9.4 mg/dL) EXACTLY midrange on the normally-quoted acceptable range, and exactly where the purely-dedicated parathyroid gland is constantly striving to keep it with a remarkable precision unmatched by all our other electrolytes, and completely unlike my somewhat lowered levels when afib and ectopics were occurring.

I have had AF off and on for 20 years, Sometimes I can go 3 months without an episode (usually in the summer), winter usually one or sometimes 2 a month, I always convert on my own. As for etopics I havn't been getting many because of adding magnesium, perhaps I am one that needs some CA.

Liz

Checked my chart again. The RDW SD was 44. I checked and this *could* indicate a deficiency of iron, B-12, or folate or chronic liver disease.

I have had AF off and on for 20 years, Sometimes I can go 3 months without an episode (usually in the summer), winter usually one or sometimes 2 a month, I always convert on my own. As for etopics I havn't been getting many because of adding magnesium, perhaps I am one that needs some CA.

Liz


Interesting that you have no episodes in summer. Do you spend more time outside then (sun equals Vit D)?

Kate:

Yes, I am out all the time except when it rains, I do not use sunscreen, I live in Michigan so we don't get very much sun in the winter. A long time ago on this site, the founder, Hans Larsen, had a survey as to how many people got more AF episodes in the winter months and most did.

Liz

Thanks to all who have responded.

Please excuse my brevity in the following replies (listed in the same order as responses to my post above).


Gill : Yes, Katesshadow's Ca was low not high, yet the fix appears to be low Ca intake (at highVitD). That is the entire "paradox" that I'm highlighting, and what I'm suggesting is the obscuring factor that has prevented recognition of the centrality of this.


Katesshadow : I'm saying to focus on VitD AND Ca (intake of latter may be too high). There are some other dietary approaches that I employ, and some more that George employs, and any of those might help too, but I'm saying VitD and Ca are central.


Katesshadow : Yes, that effect of VitD that you highlight (and various other effects like reducing Ca excretion) make it very likely that much lower Ca intakes are perfectly safe and desirable once a high serum VitD level is achieved. (VitD must be blood tested)


Elizabeth : "need(ing) some (more) Ca" would be completely contrary to what I'm saying. More likely, as Katesshadow suggests two posts later, your summer remissions and winter attacks reflect higher VitD in summer and lower VitD in winter (at roughly similar Ca intakes). If that's the case, the solution is to supplement VitD, either mainly in winter, or all year since it's hard to go over 170 nmol/L merely by solar exposure on top of the supplements. VitD blood tests are necessary to ascertain that you've achieved the high serum VitD range, and to see what your maintenance dose is (mine is 5 x 5000iu per week, GeorgeN's I believe ~ 6 x 5000iu per week). And it is true that, due to the higher Ca absorption etc from higher VitD levels, you may then find that you have to drop your Ca intake lower. But if you follow those steps you may eliminate the winter afib too. It is also likely that you'll then find that your PTH levels drop back into the normal range -- exact same thing happened to me! The VitD acts on the parathyroid gland and PTH levels, but the feedback loops and other intricacies are all too much to go into here.


Katesshadow : I agree re Elizabeth's VitD.


Elizabeth : Yup, Hans' survey was very interesting and supportive, and the VitD connection is certainly very strong. But the evidence is also that VitD supplementation must be paired with lower Ca intake to be beneficial.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2019 03:39AM by SteveCarr.

Thanks for your reply Steve.

I have actually ordered a Vit D test kit. For several years, I have heard that most people are deficient and I've intended to start supplementing. Never happened . I think now it's a good idea to actually know my level and go from there.

And, I have a feeling I do get too much calcium. I don't like milk, except in coffee, but I never really thought of all the other sources. So many of our foods are "calcium fortified" now, it's probably easy to get too much.

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katesshadow
Thanks for your reply Steve.

I have actually ordered a Vit D test kit. For several years, I have heard that most people are deficient and I've intended to start supplementing. Never happened . I think now it's a good idea to actually know my level and go from there.

And, I have a feeling I do get too much calcium. I don't like milk, except in coffee, but I never really thought of all the other sources. So many of our foods are "calcium fortified" now, it's probably easy to get too much.

I happened to pull a blood test on the 7th day of a water fast in December. My calcium was 9.3, despite not having consumed any food for a week. Is was 9.1 on Thursday in a fed state - from a different lab company (I don't consider these as different in a material fashion).

I run my 25OHD (Vitamin D) level around 100 ng/mL at the request of my doc. I do this by consuming 10,000 IU's/day. In addition I spend as much time as possible outside with as few clothes on as possible sans sunscreen, even in the Colorado winter at elevation skiing and rock climbing. I had my annual skin check on Friday with my dermatologist. I told him I do the inverse of what his profession suggests. He told me to keep on doing what I'm doing as my skin looks awesome, even though both parents had basal cell carcinoma (my lifestyle is very different than theirs and I think the high D level is key). One friend lives on the Florida coast, he walks with only shorts on most days for at least an hour on the beach. His 25OHD runs around 70 ng/mL without supplementation. His latitude is lower (~29 deg), so can get UV most of the year.

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GeorgeN

Thanks for your reply Steve.

I have actually ordered a Vit D test kit. For several years, I have heard that most people are deficient and I've intended to start supplementing. Never happened . I think now it's a good idea to actually know my level and go from there.

And, I have a feeling I do get too much calcium. I don't like milk, except in coffee, but I never really thought of all the other sources. So many of our foods are "calcium fortified" now, it's probably easy to get too much.

I happened to pull a blood test on the 7th day of a water fast in December. My calcium was 9.3, despite not having consumed any food for a week. Is was 9.1 on Thursday in a fed state - from a different lab company (I don't consider these as different in a material fashion).

I run my 25OHD (Vitamin D) level around 100 ng/mL at the request of my doc. I do this by consuming 10,000 IU's/day. In addition I spend as much time as possible outside with as few clothes on as possible sans sunscreen, even in the Colorado winter at elevation skiing and rock climbing. I had my annual skin check on Friday with my dermatologist. I told him I do the inverse of what his profession suggests. He told me to keep on doing what I'm doing as my skin looks awesome, even though both parents had basal cell carcinoma (my lifestyle is very different than theirs and I think the high D level is key). One friend lives on the Florida coast, he walks with only shorts on most days for at least an hour on the beach. His 25OHD runs around 70 ng/mL without supplementation. His latitude is lower (~29 deg), so can get UV most of the year.

George, are you in the medical field? so many of you regular posters are so knowledgeable and your terminology is sometimes above my head lol.

My Ca was 8.3 in November. In March 2018 I had gallbladder surgery and it was 7.5 to 8.5 over a period of a few days.

I really don't spend enough time in the sun. In my 20s and 30s, I lived in the sun basically and, just this morning, had a growth removed from my face that was surely the price of dark tan.

I have the in-home test ordered and should be here in a day or so. I have also gone ahead on ordered some Vitamin D3, but will not take it until I know my number. I have also ordered B12 and Folate. I figure they can't hurt.

Steve:

I understand that Vit. D is important to take, especially in the winter. I used to take it, but I get Aura Migraines and there are a few supplements that I finally found that cause them, unfortunately Vit. D. is one of them, so my Vit. D is at the low end, I do eat fish but probably not enough.

Liz

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katesshadow
George, are you in the medical field? so many of you regular posters are so knowledgeable and your terminology is sometimes above my head lol.

I really don't spend enough time in the sun. In my 20s and 30s, I lived in the sun basically and, just this morning, had a growth removed from my face that was surely the price of dark tan.

No, but like Carey, wolfpack and Shannon have an engineering undergrad.

I can't suggest anyone else do what I do with the sun. What I've experienced is that with my high D level, I don't burn (Jackie spoke about this years ago).

“George, are you in the medical field? so many of you regular posters are so knowledgeable and your terminology is sometimes above my head lol.”

I agree, Kate. WHOOSH!

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Catherine
“George, are you in the medical field? so many of you regular posters are so knowledgeable and your terminology is sometimes above my head lol.”

I agree, Kate. WHOOSH!

It's a great group. I was diagnosed just after Thanksgiving and knew nothing about Afib.

I joined a Facebook group but it us SO different. There are a few knowledgeable people on there but for the most part it's more like you would expect a FB group to be. My son finally "unjoined" me because he thought the group was not good for me lol.

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katesshadow
I joined a Facebook group but it us SO different. There are a few knowledgeable people on there but for the most part it's more like you would expect a FB group to be. My son finally "unjoined" me because he thought the group was not good for me lol.

If it's the same group I joined for a few days that's the worst group ever. The guy who owns it is half baked and full of sheer nonsense and half the members aren't much better. He wrote some book about afib years ago and now portrays himself as an authority, but he's actually completely clueless. For example, he tells people that an ablation requires a three-day ICU stay. I was warned that disputing him will get you kicked out so I didn't bother trying to correct that crap. I just unjoined after about three days.

Besides, Facebook is a terrible format for a support forum. Comments get hidden, you can't quote people easily, and there's no threading. It's all just one stream of comments and once a stream gets long it's almost impossible to see all the comments.

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Carey

I joined a Facebook group but it us SO different. There are a few knowledgeable people on there but for the most part it's more like you would expect a FB group to be. My son finally "unjoined" me because he thought the group was not good for me lol.

If it's the same group I joined for a few days that's the worst group ever. The guy who owns it is half baked and full of sheer nonsense and half the members aren't much better. He wrote some book about afib years ago and now portrays himself as an authority, but he's actually completely clueless. For example, he tells people that an ablation requires a three-day ICU stay. I was warned that disputing him will get you kicked out so I didn't bother trying to correct that crap. I just unjoined after about three days.

Besides, Facebook is a terrible format for a support forum. Comments get hidden, you can't quote people easily, and there's no threading. It's all just one stream of comments and once a stream gets long it's almost impossible to see all the comments.

I don't think it's the same group. The one I referenced is lead by a women, who is actually quite knowledgeable. It just seemed to attract (which I guess any group does) drama queens .

I am very fortunate to have accidentally discovered this forum.

I completely follow the “strategy” protocol, described in this forum (thank you Jackie) for the various supplements suggested and benefit from them as it relates to my ectopics and Afib episodes.

Insofar as the technical back and forth conversations are concerned, I read them all and glean what I can and know if I wanted clarification I could ask.

I think it’s a tribute to us all that we don’t curl up and accept our lot, but rather investigate the why’s and wherefores of this malady; certainly our doctors won’t and can’t.

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Carey
Besides, Facebook is a terrible format for a support forum. Comments get hidden, you can't quote people easily, and there's no threading. It's all just one stream of comments and once a stream gets long it's almost impossible to see all the comments.

Facebook needs to calcify.

I jumped ship a year ago. Miss some websites that require FB membership,but not enough to pull me back in.