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How Long For Supplements Protocol to Have Effect?

Posted by AnneC 
How Long For Supplements Protocol to Have Effect?
January 09, 2019 05:59PM
Hi all,

I started my supplementation program 6-7 months ago. It includes 800 mg magnesium, 2000+ mg taurine, coenzyme Q10, potassium chloride & 8 oz low-sodium V8 juice. I am also on 5 mg Eliquis.

However, my afib episodes seem to be becoming more frequent & longer in duration. I now have episodes of 12-24 hours every few days - relatively asymptomatic but unnerving given afib begets afib.

Should l be patient with my current supplementation, or start looking elsewhere?

All thoughts appreciated!

Kind regards

Anne
Re: How Long For Supplements Protocol to Have Effect?
January 09, 2019 06:48PM
What is the form of the magnesium? Some are better than others, the amino-acid chelate being the best for oral intake.

6 months is certainly long enough to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of supplements. You might want to look to start anti-arrhythmics and beta blockers or find a good ablationist and get on his or her list.
Re: How Long For Supplements Protocol to Have Effect?
January 09, 2019 07:02PM
Anne,

In my case, it was very quick (weeks at most). Also if I go off my mag, I get afib within a day or two after not having afib for months or years.

Also in my case, quantity of mag makes a difference. I take a very large quantity of magnesium per day (3g). I tested RBC mag in my serum. It was around 7.9. The top end of optimal is 6.5. I decided to back off my intake to drop the serum level. Started getting breakthroughs. Decided that, for me, I needed to keep my intake around 3 g/day. So taking enough is really important for me.

George
Re: How Long For Supplements Protocol to Have Effect?
January 11, 2019 02:39AM
Quote
GeorgeN
Decided that, for me, I needed to keep my intake around 3 g/day.
George

Do you really mean 3g Mg element/day?
Such a dose would mean, for me, swallowing about 40 tabs of Mg glycinate/ malate a day. And what for the kidneys ?
Re: How Long For Supplements Protocol to Have Effect?
January 11, 2019 10:50AM
Anne,

Reviewing your previous posts you have a resting HR in the 40's and 3 second sinus pauses, and possible sick sinus syndrome. And based on some of the experts here you decided to megadose on supplements, especially Mg? Did you review this with your EP? I have had similar symptoms in the past, and they were similarly aggravated by these supplements. I subsequently was informed by multiple EP's that Mg supplementation is ill-advised in this setting. In fact, there is very limited evidence that it has any benefit for the general population with paroxysmal afib. If you believe the citations of studies and books from "well-credentialed" people that are often offered up as "evidence" you might wish to investigate further. It is very telling that Dr. Natale and other experts do not recommend them. I certainly believe Dr. Natale is not bought off by big pharma and knows how to evaluate a study. Anyways, for your particular situation there may even be substantial risks. 12-24 hour afib episodes every few days sounds pretty serious to me. I would stop the supplements and get some evaluation

Peter
Re: How Long For Supplements Protocol to Have Effect?
January 11, 2019 12:52PM
Quote
Pompon

Decided that, for me, I needed to keep my intake around 3 g/day.
George

Do you really mean 3g Mg element/day?
Such a dose would mean, for me, swallowing about 40 tabs of Mg glycinate/ malate a day. And what for the kidneys ?

Yes. I take it usually in powder form - either di-magnesium malate powder or magnesium hydroxide. For the hydroxide, i put it in water in a specific ratio to make my own "milk of magnesia." I will often react this with apple cider vinegar to make magnesium acetate.

I am obviously passing a lot of magnesium out in my urine. But 14 years of testing myself indicates I need this quantity to keep afib at bay - can't say this is appropriate for anyone else. The body stores of magnesium are something like 30g and a lot of that is in the bones. Hence taking 3g/day (I've taken 5) clearly means I've got to be dumping a lot of it in my urine. I'm guessing there is some kind of a gradient issue that is my reason I need so much.

When I first started taking fairly high doses of magnesium, I was also concerned about taking too much. I became aware of the work of Dr. Herbert C. Mansmann. He was a Type II diabetic and an MD. He suffered from diabetic neuropathy. He was able to put this neuropathy in remission by taking 20g/day of magnesium for a year. He subsequently continued with a maintenance dose of 5g/day. I posted on Dr. Mansmann here: <[www.afibbers.org] as have others <[www.afibbers.org]

If I record my heart rate during sleep, it is commonly in the 40's. This could be an issue for some, but I've never experienced anything negative from the magnesium in relation to heart rate.

I can't say that what I do would be beneficial for anyone else (or perhaps harmful), only that it works for me and when I've done the experiment of reducing or eliminating my magnesium intake afib occurs in short order (a day or so) when I haven't had it for months or years. The first time I tried the experiment, was about 12 years ago. Hadn't had afib for 2 years. Decided I didn't need any supplements, so quit them all. Afib came within 24 or 48 hours - I don't recall exactly at this late date. I'd posted about it at the time, but that database got corrupted when Hans was upgrading the software at one point.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2019 08:47PM by GeorgeN.
Re: How Long For Supplements Protocol to Have Effect?
January 11, 2019 02:19PM
Thanks for the clarifications !
Re: How Long For Supplements Protocol to Have Effect?
January 11, 2019 02:42PM
Anne:

How much Potassium are you taking? Do you know what your potassium blood level is? A few years ago I started to take a pot. supplement and I started getting runs of AF during the day as well as the evening. I am vagal and never started an episode of AF in the daytime, I quit the potassium supplement and the runs of AF stopped. My potassium level when taking bloodwork is towards the high end of the lab scale, so It was not a good idea for me to take Pot. supplements. I always say make sure that you need Pot supplements before taking it.

Liz
Re: How Long For Supplements Protocol to Have Effect?
January 12, 2019 04:18PM
Quote
Elizabeth
Anne:

How much Potassium are you taking? Do you know what your potassium blood level is? A few years ago I started to take a pot. supplement and I started getting runs of AF during the day as well as the evening. I am vagal and never started an episode of AF in the daytime, I quit the potassium supplement and the runs of AF stopped. My potassium level when taking bloodwork is towards the high end of the lab scale, so It was not a good idea for me to take Pot. supplements. I always say make sure that you need Pot supplements before taking it.

Liz

Hi Liz,

I have been taking 1/4 tsp potassium chloride powder in my low-sodium V8 twice a day. My last blood test several months ago (prior to supplementation) put my K level at 4.2 mmol/L (normal range was indicated as 3.6-5.4) - so I think I will drop the potassium and see what happens.

Thanks for your help -

Regards,

Anne
Re: How Long For Supplements Protocol to Have Effect?
January 12, 2019 04:32PM
Quote
safib
Anne,

Reviewing your previous posts you have a resting HR in the 40's and 3 second sinus pauses, and possible sick sinus syndrome. And based on some of the experts here you decided to megadose on supplements, especially Mg? Did you review this with your EP? I have had similar symptoms in the past, and they were similarly aggravated by these supplements. I subsequently was informed by multiple EP's that Mg supplementation is ill-advised in this setting. In fact, there is very limited evidence that it has any benefit for the general population with paroxysmal afib. If you believe the citations of studies and books from "well-credentialed" people that are often offered up as "evidence" you might wish to investigate further. It is very telling that Dr. Natale and other experts do not recommend them. I certainly believe Dr. Natale is not bought off by big pharma and knows how to evaluate a study. Anyways, for your particular situation there may even be substantial risks. 12-24 hour afib episodes every few days sounds pretty serious to me. I would stop the supplements and get some evaluation

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thank you for taking the time to look at my previous posts, and for your thoughtful reply.

I did run my planned supplementation program by my EP several months ago, before I started it, and his attitude was essentially, "Yeah, fine, they won't hurt you." I have another appointment with him in a few weeks, and have a list of quite pointed questions for him, as I was rather uninformed at the time of my last visit.

During my AF episodes my resting HR always remains relatively low (70s-80s) and I don't experience the severe symptoms some other sufferers do. I don't know whether my tendency to bradycardia or the supplements are working to keep my HR down. My resting HR in NSR is now in the 50s since I detrained from distance running.

Regards,

Anne
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