vegetarian/vegan diet trigger?

Before this past month i had a few episodes of a-fib that were turned around with a cardioversion and i went on my merry way. Since 11/25 i had 2 episodes and now am in a-fib. Thinking thru things- about 6 months ago my husband and i went plant based for a health issue for him (prostate) and it actually did help. But i got to wondering.. i think veggies are good but i kinda wonder what i might be missing nutrient wise ?? I know B etc. I have a functional medicine doc who just did extensive blood work and it looked good. He did put me on gobs of Mg glycinate .. my functional doc is more of a paleo type guy but was fine with the plant based. Still.. i wonder.. i have started eating eggs again. I am not opposed to meat other than i thought we were doing the right thing. (We eat good vegan... not junk vegan..) I searched the archives and there was a little on vegetarian diet but just thought i'd shoot this out there as a question

Thanks

Hi Betty,
The vegetarian diet is deficient in taurine. Taurine is the most prevalent amino acid in the heart.
If you search through the forums here, you will see that afibbers have been using taurine to control their arrhythmias.
The dose can range from 500 mg to 10 grams per day. My advice is to take it with meals because taking it on an empty stomach can cause a burning sensation.

Hi Betty,

I am also on a vegetarian diet. Lots of veggies and occasional eggs and wild salmon. Dr. John Day also recommends a vegetarian
diet for people with Afib. However, even though I thought I was doing the right thing for myself, my A fib is getting progressively
worse. Trying to figure out why. Other than my A fib I am a healthy person. Maybe I need to increase taurine.

thanks. I think i will just add some meat in this weekend for sure.. gee never know... maybe i'll flip back into sinus might do the supplement but husband just said.. why don't you just eat some meat and see.

As Jim mentions, taurine may be an issue. I've taken 4g of taurine in powder form for years.

Otherwise I'd put my money more on electrolytes. With your gobs of Mg++, are you yet to bowel tolerance? I'm also a fan of potassium citrate (in powder form as pill have a 99 mg/pill limit). You can get bags of food grade potassium (assume your kidneys are OK). 1 tsp of the powder is about 2 g of potassium. Like all things, start low and work up.

Minimizing calcium can also be beneficial. If you are vegan, that is unlikely a source of excess calcium. Cheese as a vegetarian can be.

My diet is very plant based, but I do eat eggs, white fish & shell fish.

George

Low potassium on a vegetarian diet?
This might help your decision?
[nutritionfacts.org]

Thanks Joe - mainly already well known but a nice summary nonetheless.

Quote
GeorgeN
With your gobs of Mg++, are you yet to bowel tolerance?
George

no not yet. my doc (functional ) said i could take way more than i am but started with the dose on the bottle and moving up.

thanks all for the responses.

whitehaven - Over the years, the successes of afibbers in controlling AF is based on the principle that first you must have an optimal amount of magnesium intake consistently....every day. Since this often means miligrams of magnesium need to be as high as 600, 800 and for some, close to 1,000 mg a day...which can be difficult to get from food alone, so supplementing is necessary.

.With Mg supplementation, the ideal approach is to start with lower amounts and ramp up dosing gradually until you reach bowel tolerance... and then back down to the dose just before the tolerance issue and stabilize there. However, many influences will "use up" magnesium quickly... such as high stress so the dosing becomes more dynamic and at least in the beginning, you're likely to be experimenting. If you consume dairy (calcium), then that blocks the efficacy of magnesium... so dosing requirements of the Mg are higher. After a couple weeks, you'll begin to see how it works for you. Everyone is different.

Then... and very important to keep this in mind... normal rhythm is dependent on the solid base of optimal magnesium... but it's potassium that regulates the refractory period...or the time between beats and the rule is... you must have the consistent, optimal intake base of magnesium first and then your dietary intake of potassium and/or with supplemental potassium regulates the time between beats. More potassium slows the beats; lacking adequate potassium, means shorter time between beats. Often people just add potassium and that can backfire if the optimal Mg base is missing.

Caveat: The higher dosing of magnesium and potassium should be done only when you have healthy kidney function.

Jackie

Thanks, Jackie. I do take a lot of magnesium. I take mag citrate.....400 mg, magnesium ascorbate...…..300 mg, magnesium glycinate capsule.....360 mg, lastly, I take magnesium powder which 1 scoop equaling 2000 mg magnesium glycinate/lysinate chelate ( sometimes
I take 2 scoops).


I also take t000 mg of taurine , 2 times a day.

I do not take potassium. My potassium levels on my blood test were all in range so I assumed that I didn't need to take it,
Do you think that is the missing link? George likes potassium citrate, do you agree with that recommendation?

whitehaven - That's a very ample amount of magnesium so I tend to agree that it could be that a bit of supplemental potassium may help... but as you know, the results can be highly individualized... (many people could absolutely not tolerate the amount of magnesium you take).

So, why not start with the citrate form as George suggests since he also tolerates generous Mg dosing. You can always change and try potassium gluconate which is what I've always used... only because that's what others here on the forum suggested a very long time ago so I just stuck with that.

As always, start with low, divided doses... and increase slightly after several days if all goes well. That way if there is an adverse reaction, you can reverse fairly easily by just adding some sodium to offset the potassium. You've probably read that the standard blood tests do not reflect intracellular levels of these minerals... so just use that as a guide and since you are 'normal' on the standard tests ... you still could be slightly low on the IC potassium so you won't need much. But, keep close track of your dose amounts in a log so you can trace the progress or lack thereof.... for your own use as well as sharing your history with us... and I hope to see a very positive report from you.

As for the taurine, if you haven't read this archived post on Taurine.. here's the link: [www.afibbers.org] and I have another newsletter report on Taurine that I can send you by email if you send me a PM.

Good luck with your experiment.

Jackie

Hello Betty,

Would like to offer for your consideration the following:

[www.exatest.com]

The test is Medicare approved. Deliverables provide an overview of key intracellular mineral levels along with key intracellular elemental ratios. The analysis looks at: Magnesium, calcium, potassium, sodium, chloride, and phosphorus. Elemental rations are phosphorus/calcium, magnesium/calcium, magnesium/phosphorus, potassium/calcium, potassium/magnesium, and potassium/sodium.

I, along with many on this site, find much value in the test. Test results provide a benchmark from which to work from. It is the intracellular measurements which you should desire to understand.

Regards,

Larry

Thanks, Larry, for adding the reminder. Many years ago, I was able to make significant improvements once I had the ExaTest and (of course) was found to be low and ratios imbalanced. That served as a reminder to me to always be very sure I was optimizing those critical electrolytes appropriately.

Jackie

I am a vegetarian...I eat no meat whatsoever. It has nothing to do with my AF or triggering it.
You cant "just eat" vegetables to be a vegetarian...you have to follow a nutritious diet plan. If you don't know how to follow a plant based diet buy some good books. How to Be a Healthy Vegetarian is a start.

The basic principles of a whole-foods, plant-based diet are as follows, whole, minimally processed foods. Limits or avoids animal products. Focuses on plants, including vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, seeds and nuts, which should make up the majority of what you eat. Have a regular source of vitamin B12.Ensure a sufficient intake of vitamin D, especially if exposure to sunlight is low.

By eating a variety of foods including fruits, vegetables, legumes, nuts and seeds, soy products, and whole grains, vegetarians can get adequate nutrients from non–meat sources. Vegetarians, especially vegans, need to pay attention getting enough protein, iron, calcium, vitamin D, vitamin B12, and omega–3 fatty acids.

I eat all those foods that you are saying one should eat plus I eat some meat (fish, chicken, some beef). You get complete protein from meat, I try to get my vitamins, protein from food. It doesn't make sense to eat a diet that is deficient in vitamins and protein and then take vitamins to make up for it. A lot of vegetarians get some of their protein from Soy which is bad for people who have thyroid problems:

Sources that promote soy assert that Asians have eaten "tons of soy" for millennia. If you search the Internet for "soybeans", you can find statements such as "soybeans have been a major source of protein for people in Asia for more than 5,000 years". However, according to the extensively researched book, The Whole Soy Story: the dark side of America's favorite health food, by Kaayla T. Daniel, PhD, CCN, (this month's Book of the Month), the Chinese first started eating soybeans about 2,500 years ago, after they figured out how to ferment it. Somehow, the ancient Chinese knew that soybeans still contain many toxins after cooking and thus avoiding eating it until they learned to neutralize those toxins through fermentation. And in traditional Asian diets, soy is only used in small amounts as a condiment, with pork, seafood and other animals providing the bulk of the protein. Only very recently has soy been eaten the way we typically eat it, consuming large amounts in an unfermented and often highly processed form. Soy was originally considered an inedible plant, used to fix nitrogen in the soil. Even today you can find people from farming families who remember that as the primary use of soy.

Joy, I did a little research and have read about some of the health problems you have, I want to say if being a vegetarian is helpful to you then don't pay any attention to what I have written, we all have to find what works for us.

Liz



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2019 09:02PM by Elizabeth.

Liz

I’ve been a Vegetarian for 50 years.

We take D3 because most of us don’t get enough sun. Magnesium because most are deficient in it, Vit C because our bodies don’t produce it etc etc. There are many reasons why people supplement their diet. I have chosen a cruelty free lifestyle.

As a vegetarian I get all of my protein and nutrients from my diet which includes fruit , vegetable, nuts ,pulses , whole grains and soy products.

Of benefit to me is the fact that I don’t have to eat something that is dead and has gone thru the stress of slaughter and all the associated hormones and chemicals that are released when under that stress. . If you ever been to a slaughter yard as I have youwould know what I mean.

It’s a personal choice. Millions of people over the world live healthily and happily meat free.

Liz

I’ve been a Vegetarian for 50 years.

We take D3 because most of us don’t get enough sun. Magnesium because most are deficient in it, Vit C because our bodies don’t produce it etc etc. There are many reasons why people supplement their diet. I have chosen a cruelty free lifestyle.

Also I come from a heritage of heart disease, cancer and auto immune diseases. Many of my forbearers died in their 30’ (auntie and uncles)and 40’s.(grandfather)

As a vegetarian I get all of my protein and nutrients from my diet which includes fruit , vegetable, nuts ,pulses , whole grains and soy products.

Of benefit to me is the fact that I don’t have to eat something that is dead and has gone thru the stress of slaughter and all the associated hormones and chemicals that are released when under that stress. . If you ever been to a slaughter yard as I have youwould know what I mean.

Millions of people over the world live healthily and happily meat free.

If you choose to eat meat I have no quarrel with that. It’s a personal choice.

Hear, hear.

Dr. Steven Sinatra says 80-20% on diet--80% vegetables and 20% meat, eggs.




For Best Results, Go 80/20

Here’s one more thought, for those of you who appreciate what a vegan diet has to offer, but are okay not committing to it 100 percent: Consider adopting an 80/20 approach to your meal planning. That is, eat 80 percent plant foods and 20 percent animal products.

This is how I try to eat, and I think it’s the best of both worlds. With an eating plan like my PAMM diet, you get the high nutritional value of a plant-based diet, but the relatively small amount of meat it includes still provides you with the vital nutrients only found in animal products. Just be sure to always buy organic to ensure the most natural and humane treatment of animals raised for these purposes.

One last note: When you’re eating lots of vegetables, be sure to eat some healthy fat with them to help your body absorb nutrients. Steaming vegetables to al dente, then tossing them with extra virgin olive oil and my signature olive oil spice blend is my favorite way to do this!

[heartmdinstitute.com]

I’d rdather listen to Dr Joel Khan. He’s a Cardiologist and a Vegan.

Don’t really follow Dr Sinatra’s ideas...and the constant sales pitch for his supplements and books.

They all sell books and supplements, I go to Dr. David Brownstein in West Bloomfield Mich, he is a great Holistic doctor but he too sells vitamins and books. So, I wouldn't put Stephen Sinatra down for selling vitamins. I have never heard of Dr. Kahn, he is not too far from where I live. However, I would never go on a complete vegan diet, not enough protein which I for one need.

[drjoelkahn.com]

Quote
Larry
Hello Betty,

Would like to offer for your consideration the following:

[www.exatest.com]

st. Test results provide a benchmark from which to work from. It is the intracellular measurements which you should desire to understand.

Regards,

Larry

wow thanks Larry! i just spent the week in the hospital re my afib and have a follow up with functional med doc.. .. i am all about out of the box thinking thanks for this

Quote
JoyWin
I’d rdather listen to Dr Joel Khan. He’s a Cardiologist and a Vegan.

Don’t really follow Dr Sinatra’s ideas...and the constant sales pitch for his supplements and books.

Dr. kahn is local. i did actually inbox him with this last episode. i might make an appointment with him but he is totally out of pocket to the tune of around $1000 for visits and follow ups.. mayb emore

Quote
Elizabeth
Dr. Steven Sinatra says 80-20% on diet--80% vegetables and 20% meat, eggs.




For Best Results, Go 80/20

Here’s one more thought, for those of you who appreciate what a vegan diet has to offer, but are okay not committing to it 100 percent: Consider adopting an 80/20 approach to your meal planning. That is, eat 80 percent plant foods and 20 percent animal products.



[heartmdinstitute.com]

Funny that is exactly what iwas thinking.. spending the week in the hospital ... wondering what i would do from here forward. I was thinking "plant BASEd.. plus.." maybe i should trademark that LOL. Or "meat on the side." So have a little meat with a meal but not all meals... and also not STRESS so darn much about WHAT to eat?! that can't help right?!?!?!

Thanks all for your responses! I spent the week in the hosptial trying a new drug. Good times.. of course they knew nothing about diet except the Mg.. right?! LOL. I got the feeling some of the docs knew more but coudln't really share in that environment. I am going to do plant based.. plus meat on the side for now. toying with seeing Dr. Kahn (i had before) and going to look at that test above. It looks like it could be very informative. thank you all.

Quote
Elizabeth
They all sell books and supplements, I go to Dr. David Brownstein in West Bloomfield Mich, he is a great Holistic doctor but he too sells vitamins and books. So, I wouldn't put Stephen Sinatra down for selling vitamins. I have never heard of Dr. Kahn, he is not too far from where I live. However, I would never go on a complete vegan diet, not enough protein which I for one need.

[drjoelkahn.com]

Dr. Brownstein is impossible to get into. i went to Dr. Ng in his practice a long time ago- for other stuff. i thought he was "meh."

Bettylou::

Yes, I have been told by a few people that they can't get in to see Dr. B., that is too bad he is a very good doctor. Sorry but I don't know what "meh" means, he is one of the other doctors in the office, I have only seen Dr. B., I have been seeing him a couple of times a year for the past 13 years. He does my bloodwork, checks my thyroid (I was hyper thyroid Graves) and had it nuked a long time ago before Dr. B. ,

I see my heart doctor in Northville, he is with U of M but goes a couple of times a week to the U of M center in Northville, he is getting harder and harder to see so I am looking for someone else, Dr. B gave me the name of a heart doctor but he isn't an EP so not sure.

Liz

Quote
Elizabeth
Bettylou::

Yes, I have been told by a few people that they can't get in to see Dr. B., that is too bad he is a very good doctor. Sorry but I don't know what "meh" means, he is one of the other doctors in the office, I have only seen Dr. B., I have been seeing him a couple of times a year for the past 13 years. He does my bloodwork, checks my thyroid (I was hyper thyroid Graves) and had it nuked a long time ago before Dr. B. ,

I see my heart doctor in Northville, he is with U of M but goes a couple of times a week to the U of M center in Northville, he is getting harder and harder to see so I am looking for someone else, Dr. B gave me the name of a heart doctor but he isn't an EP so not sure.

Liz

Thanks LIz...
Meh just means.. i wasn't impressed. I go to UofM right now to an EP doc and also to a congenital doc. Sometimes you see the NP or PA with the EP group but if you push you get to see the doc. they each seem to have their speciality with the EP group.. I do have a functional med doc (similar to Brownstein.. Dr. Lewerenz.. who does all the bloodwork like that..) thanks for the info.

Amy

hey all- old post here. I hadn't had an episode in a very long time. I think part was that I got lazy on my Mg.. but I decided to spend a few bucks and do a follow up w/ Dr. Kahn on Tuesday. He is so great and has been answering my emails all weekend and called me when I went into Afib. He isn't my primary cardiologist as I have other congenital stuff and see an EP guy at uofMich... but I am trying to gather my questions.

So I mostly take Mg Glyciate.. but it seems like citrate is the better way to go?
So you can measure blood for potassium? (I should do that first?).
and I have had kidney stones. so should I be wary of over doing it? (not kidney function issues.).
How do you decide how much taurine to start? how do you know when you have enough?
And I have read on the group here some links that say too much vitamin D not great for Afib ? I wasn't taking that much in this last episode.. but because we had a recent potential exposure to the "rona (waiting test.. probably not but being safe).. I have been taking gobs this week.

I don't know if this will pop back up top b/c it is such and old post. LOL. if I don't get any responses I'll make a new post. thanks ya'll ..