60% of afibbers may not need blood thinners

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Brian_og

Carey is correct in his statement (note he said minutes not one minute). The ASSERT trial showed even 6 minutes of AF resulted in 2.5 times increased stroke risk. Other studies have disputed this, and the trend seems to be moving away from short duration risk. In fact, there is evidence that neither the timing nor patterning nor perception of AF is predictive of stroke risk. Consequently risk assessment and anticoagulant therapy continues to be based on other risk factors using for example CHA2DS2-VASc, without stratification within the AF group. Unfortunately, many of the opinions expressed by MDs and echoed here are not current with the literature. My own EP indicated to me that his criteria for anticoagulation assuming it was not indicated by CHA2DS2-VASc was whether one fell asleep with AF and it was still present on waking. He actually said that this was based on his own experience, even though he was aware it was not aligned with current recommendations.


I have read before about the 6 mins, but the ASSERT trial showed no real risk of stroke under 24 hours. I don't really understand if subclinical results i.e., the ASSERT trial, would be different from symptomatic.

"The risk of ischemic stroke or systemic embolism in patients with SCAF between 6 min and 24 h was not significantly different from patients without SCAF."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Thanks for posting this. This is the type of stratification which is needed to clarify the situation.

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Elizabeth
Carey has said that you can stroke after just a few min. of AF or even if you have a couple of AFs a year or even not having AF for years. Yet safib you are saying that Carey is correct that the "long the risk is really unknown" so why does he say that you can stroke just after a few min. of AF. This double talk is driving me nuts.

It's not double talk. It's incomplete understanding. I don't have the research at hand but from memory about 1/3 of strokes in people with afib happen when there has been no recent afib activity. There is something about afib beyond the actual arrhythmia that leads to an increased risk of stroke, and what that something is isn't fully understood. (This is one of the reasons the term "lone afib" has largely been abandoned and "atrial myopathy" is increasingly accepted.)

The takeaway from all these seemingly conflicting studies is:

If you have afib, your CHADS-Vasc score is really, really important. Should the 45-year old who's a CHADS-Vasc 0 come off anticoagulants when his afib has been fully controlled? Probably yes. How about the 75-year old who's a CHADS-Vasc 3 whose afib has also been brought under control? Probably no.

There are no easy answers that apply to everyone. Every patient has to be considered individually. That's why we have doctors. That's their job, to consider YOUR risk factors.

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Elizabeth
Dean posts on here once in a while he has posted about his success with eating Natto. Good grief, you think that Carey isn't scaremongering always telling everyone they should be on blood thinners or they will stroke, even if you only have a few min. of AF once in a great while. I never heard this over and over until Carey, there are some of us that cannot take these blood thinners. Colindo Is saying there should be more research in finding a cure for AF instead of just drugs/bloodthinners which have caused many problems.

Liz

What do you mean by "success with eating Natto"?

It seems to imply is that he is successful using Natto as a substitute for AC. That can't be known at the moment since we don't know if it has prevented a stroke or not? Or that next week it doesn't prevent a stroke that AC might?

Brian:

Dean eats the food Natto, it has stopped his AF.
The following is from one of Dean's posts.

Natto food V's Nattokinase: Which is best?

With stroke and afib being the current topic on the forum (and bordering on the hysterical from some posters). I thought I would post this excellent article from Dr John Day, an EP and former President of the Heart Rhythm Society of the US who eats natto food daily.

This is a very down to earth discussion on the pro's and con's of afib, natto food, nattokinase, blood thinners and stroke.

I have been eating natto food for 14yrs now and haven't had an afib event in this time yet my GP and EP still want me to go on blood thinners. I have a CHAD score of 1 and I take one tablet a day for blood pressure mostly because being an Aussie I drink a fair bit of beer and red wine. There is no way I am swapping the amazing benefits of natto food for blood thinners!!

I will be seeing my EP shortly for my yearly visit so will have another “animated” discussion on the stroke issue with him. My EP say's about natto food: “we should be looking much more into these sorts of thing”. So he doesn't doubt eating natto food has helped stop my LAF

If you want to read more about Dean and Natto, just put into search.

Liz



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2018 10:35AM by Elizabeth.

Hi Brian,

I to have had some success with Natto, it's another story but in short I have been afib free for more than 4 months.
As for it being a blood thinner, i recently carried out some blood bleed time tests after taking natto (and nattokinase) using the Duke method and found the blood bleed time was about twice as long compared to not taking natto.
So it's doing something for me. As a side, my finger nails and toenails are growing much faster, and the most amazing thing is my bald head is growing small hair again.
I also had my fibrinogen test done back in May and I am due for another test in Feb, and i am hoping and expecting a reduction of about 10%. This will prove to me at least that natto is doing what it claims.

The way I see it, as we get older our fibrinogin levels go up because the plasmin gets less effective and that affect the blood platlets, making it thicker and more likely to clot, thus causing a stroke. Now nattokinase is supposed to take the place of the weakening plasmin as it is 4 to 6 times more efficient than our own plasmin.
This is where the research should go.

Colin



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2018 02:31AM by colindo.

Quote
colindo
Hi Brian,

I to have had some success with Natto, it's another story but in short I have been afib free for more than 4 months.
As for it being a blood thinner, i recently carried out some blood bleed time tests after taking natto (and nattokinase) using the Duke method and found the blood bleed time was about twice as long compared to not taking natto.
So it's doing something for me. As a side, my finger nails and toenails are growing much faster, and the most amazing thing is my bald head is growing small hair again.
I also had my fibrinogen test done back in May and I am due for another test in Feb, and i am hoping and expecting a reduction of about 10%. This will prove to me at least that natto is doing what it claims.

The way I see it, as we get older our fibrinogin levels go up because the plasma gets less effective and that affect the blood platlets, making it thicker and more likely to clot, thus causing a stroke. Now nattokinase is supposed to take the place of the weeking plasma as it is 4 to 6 times more efficient than our own plasma.
This is where the research should go.

Colin

Thanks to you and Liz for pointing this out. I wasn't aware that some were using it in an effort to prevent Afib

Natto no doubt has benefits. I have been eating 40g/day for about a year. Had persistent afib for 5 weeks terminating about 6 weeks ago (taking Flec).
I'd very much like to do proper studies with natto and my blood because i take Eliquis as well, but the Dr & EP are not interested. They just go by their official flow chart.
I think i'd be better off if there were an AI app to do all that myself. By and large i found the medicos to be as useful as two left shoes.

In my 40 i had an operation. The surgeon did a clotting test and was surprised how long my blood took to clot. I put it down to my preparation - eating mainly vegetarian and a few supplements (E,C mainly). He also said that my healing response was what he'd expect from an 18 year old

In Hans’ latest book, page 44, it states:

“The benefits of nattokinase persist for 18 hours or more and positive effects have been observed with as little as 50 mg. Martin Milner, ND, professor of cardiovascular and pulmonary medicine at the Natural College of Naturopathic Medicine and BStyr University says: “ .....We have finally found a potent natural agent that can thin and dissolve clots effectively, with relative safety and without side effects.”

I took Cardiokinase for all of 2018 and just went back on Xarelto because of the change in my echocardiogram. I hate being on a blood thinner, but right now I feel safer.

I am anxious to see what the EP I am seeing on Jan 4 has to say. I don’t know if they will opt for a cardio version or drugs. I HATE being on drugs ( Xarelto is all I’m on currently except for HRT, which I am almost weaned off of with no bad effects). I’m curious about “Flec,” which some have mentioned. I have only been put on Metroprolol and Multaq many years ago, both of which made it worse. Is this something I should suggest if he doesn’t?

This big study on nattokinase is due out in March 2019 so should clarify much of the doubt about nattokinase. Also, I think this is the study Jackie has been referring to.

Dean

[clinicaltrials.gov]

My first afib episode was 4 hours before a chemical drip to convert. No meds prescribed. The second, I foolishly attempted to self convert and waited 3 days to seek medical attention. 14 days of warfarin and metoprolol, I requested the TEE and a cardioversion which was successful. Interesting that after 14 days, there was no stroke risk. Now, If I am hardly in afib, am I at any higher risk than the general population?

After 3 months of warfarin and metop with no afib, I handed all the meds back and waved goodbye to the Cardiologist. That was 9 years ago and I have never touched a blood thinner med and only used meds to convert.

Brian - There are numerous health benefits derived from eating natto food which is the fermented soybean product and among those is the reduction of inflammation and fibrin that contributes to adverse blood clotting.

You have to be able to tolerate the soy food. But, the enzyme extracted aka Nattokinase, also does the same thing for reducing the inflammation and reducing fibrin levels.

Here are two studies
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Undoubtedly those properties have helped keep Dean safe. The hyperviscosity issue that promotes the clotting tendency especially in those who have Afib is promoted by a number of influences in the body, including inflammation, elevated fibrin, elevated homocysteine, elevated ferritin,

[www.afibbers.org]


Here’s a well-done report by Dr. David Jockers on the properties and heart healthy benefits of natto food.

[drjockers.com]