Can Afib be triggered by taking too much magnesium ?

Good day everyone,
As I already mentioned on this forum I am heading to Austin for touchup ablation with Dr. Natale on August 29. My arrhythmia made a comeback this year and I decided that I need to act. However I had just 3 episodes since March this year. I gave it a little thoughts and remember that every time before the episode erupted I used the liquid oil spray with magnesium. It is stated that oil form is much better absorbed. I also had some spasms in a calfs and usually that is when I was taking magnesium. May be I just sprayed too much? But if i did I would rather have slow heart beats or there is more complex dependancies between different electrolytes in a body?. Just wanted to know your thoughts on this one and if somebody experienced Afib attack(s) after taking magnesiums.

Deniiss



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2018 10:31AM by dartisskis.

Deniss,

I do recall one or maybe a couple of people over the years that correlated taking oral magnesium with afib. I do not recall that sort of thing for topical magnesium.

George

it just seemed suspicious for me. I am just curious if by spraying myself ( if of cause claim about topical solution is true) i created some kind of electrolyte imbalance which threw me into AF

Dennis - What is the brand of the topical magnesium? Check the label to see if it contains other chemical additives to which you might be experiencing a sensitivity reaction.

Is there anything else that you take or do when applying the topical magnesium? Just curious because the transdermal delivery is one of the most tolerated methods and is known to reduce muscle cramping pain in twenty minutes or less.

Everyone responds differently, of course, but it's not common for magnesium to stimulate afib since typically, afibbers are found to be deficient and magnesium's property is calming or relaxing for cells. Calf spasms and other muscle twitches or cramps are classic signs of magnesium deficiency.

The electrolyte imbalance from topical or other forms of magnesium delivery would be to offset calcium so the results would be relaxing since calcium is excitatory, stimulating and the cause of muscle contractions and afib when the heart cells don't contain enough available magnesium.

Now, that said... we often say here that we are all biochemically/biophysically unique and what works for most, may not be appropriate for all.

Jackie

Jackie,
Thanks for the info. Relaxing effect on the muscle is what I thought and that would calm the heart rate down. it may be was just a coincidence. The reason i ask also because of upcoming procedure and the doubt that may be i inflicted those attacks on myself and Dr, Natale would not find the cause of the arrhythmia since electrolyte imbalance can throw anybody out of rhythm. I highly doubt that I could overdose that much but this thought does not leave me alone

Magnesium is one mineral I used to swear by daily and now use sparingly. Not to say I am low on Mag, but I dont supplement as much.
Yes I believe too much Mag can trigger afib and has done so with me a few times. My theory is that it could prematurely eliminate other vital minerals prematurely due to its laxative effect.

Dennis - the total electrolyte balance can be threatened should you take too much magnesium and have the resultant diarrhea....however, that's typically short lived - assuming you reduce the magnesium intake. What's already in the cells doesn't change... it's just the excess that's shuttled off via the bowel transit system.... however, diarrhea does deplete the available (serum) sodium and potassium due to the dehydration factor and definitely, that can be a source of AF....just as if you became very dehydrated hiking on a hot summer day. All the electrolytes work together but the ratios are the key for maintaining NSR or avoiding the ectopy.


It's often reported that magnesium is required for over 300 enzymatic reactions in the body to assist with other biochemical reactions. It's now reported by those in the area of magnesium function research that there are over 500 enzymatic reactions that require magnesium.... so the point is, definitely your heart cells need magnesium.. but that's not the only system. It's just that when magnesium in heart cells is too low, calcium ...which always dominates over magnesium when it's inside the cells in levels too high, can often result in "signals" such as missed beats and outright arrhythmia. Another example is muscle twitches... calcium dominance means inability to relax muscles.

Jackie

Quote
hwkmn05
Magnesium is one mineral I used to swear by daily and now use sparingly. Not to say I am low on Mag, but I dont supplement as much.
Yes I believe too much Mag can trigger afib and has done so with me a few times. My theory is that it could prematurely eliminate other vital minerals prematurely due to its laxative effect.

I'm having frequent (but, happily, short) afib episodes. This is unpleasant, as you surely know, but having had to date more than 230 of those afib episodes, I've had time to look for triggers.
At one moment, I was supplementing with Mg and, as I had just increased the dosage, I had two afib episodes in less than 48h. Of course, I thought it could have been caused by Mg, so I stopped taking it. I had then three good days and, at the moment I began thinking I had found the culprit, afib came back.

I'm now still taking Mg (bisglycinate). It doesn't prevent afib for me, but I have better sleep with than without it. Undoubtedly.
Since taking Mg, I've far less nightly afib episodes, which is crucial for me, because nothing replaces a good night of sleep. Most of my episodes come in the day, mainly after meal, and the more often when I'm sitting at my working desk.

I'm now pretty sure Mg has never caused me afib. But it's me and, as we all know, we're all different...

Of course then there are those who say its all about balancing Mag with Potassium. I will always have Mag in the cabinet as you say for issues other than afib such as leg cramps, sleep issues and headaches. Those sites bent on selling expensive Mag as the cure for afib are all wet.

I was taking magnesium powder form everyday for a year and a half religiously. I couldn't help but believe it at times contributed to more ectopics. I'm not 100% but it's in the back of my head. I use the spray still when I have calf cramps which I seem to have very frequent but I limit use to maybe once a week. It would make sense to me that too much calming effect could cause ectopics which in turn can trigger afib..........as I get more and more years of this behind me I sometimes wonder if that "in moderation" Doctor statement isn't making more sense.

It is refreshing to see some dissent about the excessive use of magnesium. When I followed the formulation and dosing suggested here, it slowed my hr by about 5 bpm, which combined with a nominally slow sleeping rate of 40 - 45 bpm and vagal mediation seemed to reliably produce ectopy which then triggered afib. In addition, I felt sluggish and frankly was tired of the not infrequent loose stools which couldn't be avoided without constantly adjusting the dosage dependent on my diet and activity. Taking magnesium to bowel tolerance is not a validated treatment for afib. Furthermore, my EPs advised against it. Notably, Natale and other highly thought of EPs don't recommend it. In addition, the more refined magnesium testing suggested here is also flawed, in that whatever the true intracellular levels are there is no statistical basis to act on the revised numbers. I now take 200 mg magnesium glycinate daily, and get the rest from whole foods, pretty much following the RDA. And seem to be doing well, anecdotally of course.

Very interesting to hear Mg may be causing Afib. Supplementation is one of the (many) treatments I credit with reducing my Afib episodes from one every fortnight, to one every two or three years.
Worth mentioning that everything I've read (and experienced) indicates it takes a long time for the body to get blood magnesium levels up via suplementation (3-6 months or longer?). Also I read that magnesium absorption is impaired when blood magnesium levels are low (major design fault!)
I've been supplenenting Mg for 10 years now (started when I first suffered LP Afib) and my blood levels are currently JUST within the optimal range.
Rob

robh - Yes - it can take 6 mos or longer to optimize IC Mg and maybe never - if the cell's receptors are coated/damaged from bad fats (trans-fats) so Mg can't get inside the cell. Alcohol intake also depletes magnesium and kills heart cells.

Just be aware that serum levels of magnesium are not indicative of what actually gets inside the cell... if it can't get in, the serum level doesn't matter.

In another post, I commented that magnesium is essential to complete over 500 enzymatic reactions..... I just read that Carolyn Dean, MD... indicates it's now 700 enzymatic reactions. So, with that many demands, a lot of magnesium is used rapidly... assuming it gets inside the cell. [www.nutritionalmagnesium.org]

Jackie

Regarding the importance of optimal intracellular magnesium levels .... following are some clips from an old post regarding the importance of magnesium in the body. When you look at the various symptoms that can present as a result of magnesium deficiency, it's an important reminder to be sure you can effectively assimilate and utilize magnesium.

Jackie

Deficiency
There are over 3500 medical references on magnesium deficiency. Inadequate intracellular levels of magnesium may contribute to various cardiac system/vascular dysfunctions including hypertension, arteriosclerosis, angina, arrhythmias, valve disorders, coronary and cerebral vasospasms and sudden death due to heart attack and stroke.

Other deficiency signs and symptoms include:
• muscle cramps, fibromyalgia pain, weakness and fatigue,
• insomnia,
• tremors,
• bone thinning,
• insulin resistance and diabetes,
• migraines,
• asthma,
• sensitivity to noise,
• panic attacks, anxiety,
• Type A behavior,
• facial tics, eye twitches,
• bowel function/constipation
• kidney stones.
• PMS, menstrual cramps
• Irritable bladder
• Irritable bowel syndrome
• Reflux
• Trouble swallowing
• Excess response to oxidative stress; elevated inflammation marker C-reactive protein


Magnesium is often called the relaxation mineral. “Anything that is tight, irritable, crampy and stiff — whether it is a body part or an even a mood — is a sign of magnesium deficiency” says Mark Hyman, MD

Several studies indicate up to 75 percent of the US population does not get enough dietary magnesium. The industrialization of US farming practices has led to depleted soil along with ultra-processing of various foods that can reduce as much as 80 percent of the magnesium content. Excess fat, sodium, sugar, protein, alcohol, phosphates in sodas and caffeine interfere in various ways with optimal magnesium levels.

Medications such as diuretics, insulin, antibiotics, GERD drugs (PPIs and H2 blockers), birth control pills and estrogen hormone replacement therapy help deplete magnesium. Calcium supplements taken for bone health serve to block magnesium’s cardio benefits.

Stress both physical and mental/emotional is a significant source of magnesium depletion due to the adrenergic effects (adrenaline production) which cause a shift out of the intracellular space (where magnesium functions) to the extracellular space – thereby increasing urinary excretion and eventually depleting body stores.

Endurance athletes (huge physical stress) are found to be deficient magnesium. Noise stress as in work environment is known to deplete magnesium. Magnesium deficiency, even when mild, increases susceptibility to various types of neurologic and psychological stressors. Through its association with sodium, potassium, and calcium, magnesium is closely involved in maintaining cellular electrolyte balance. Adequate amounts of magnesium are essential to maintaining normal levels of potassium which are critical to cardio-vascular function.

==

One meta-analysis (i.e., a collection of several studies, in this case, 16 studies) showed that when dietary magnesium goes up, the risk of death by cardiovascular disease and cardiovascular disease itself goes down. For blood magnesium, combining these studies showed that higher circulating magnesium levels significantly lower the rates of sudden cardiac death.

Circulating and dietary magnesium and risk of cardiovascular disease: a systematic review and meta-analysis of prospective studies1,2,3
Liana C Del Gobbo, Fumiaki Imamura, Jason HY Wu, Marcia C de Oliveira Otto, Stephanie E Chiuve, and Dariush Mozaffarian
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]


Andrea Rosanoff, PhD, Interview with Richard A. Passwater, PhD on The Magnesium Factor: Health and Wellness Depends Largely on this Important Nutrient – Yet it is Usually Overlooked. February 2015 [www.wholefoodsmagazine.com]
Center for Magnesium Education & Research, LLC - [www.magnesiumeducation.com]

Mildred S. Seelig, MD, MPH, FACN – The Magnesium Factor (2003) – co-author Andrea Rosanoff, PhD. Magnesium Deficiency in the Pathogenesis of Disease (1980) Mildred S. Seelig, M.D., M.P.H., F.A.C.N. [www.mgwater.com]
Select works of Dr. Seelig [www.mgwater.com]

. M. Guasch-Ferre, et al., “Dietary Magnesium Intake Is Inversely Associated With Mortality in Adults a High Cardiovascular Disease Risk,” J. Nutr. 144 (1), 55-60 (2014).

M. Guasch-Ferre, et al., “Frequency of Nut Consumption and Mortality Risk in the PREDIMED Nutrition Intervention Trial,” BMC Med 11, 164 (2013).

Low serum magnesium and cardiovascular mortality in chronic heart failure: a propensity-matched study Chris Adamopoulos, MD, Int J Cardiol. Author manuscript; available in PMC 2010 Aug 21. Int J Cardiol. 2009 Aug 21; 136(3): 270–277.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2018 02:35PM by Jackie.

Thanks for all the info Jackie. Is it easy/possible to measure intra-cellular magnesium?
The last measurement I had with a company called FDX in the UK was from my blood so presumably reflects serum levels?
Rob

Quote
robh
Thanks for all the info Jackie. Is it easy/possible to measure intra-cellular magnesium?
The last measurement I had with a company called FDX in the UK was from my blood so presumably reflects serum levels?
Rob

EXATest. Easy, but maybe not cheap.