Nattokinase experience

Many question the lack of a large double blind study on the effectiveness of nattokinase.Since I stopped Eliquis several months ago due to an allergic reaction, I have been using nattokinase faithfully and have wondered if is really doing anything since I have no negative side effects from it at all. Well last week I needed an emergency tooth extraction and did not stop taking nattokinase before the procedure. I bled profusely after the extraction and the dentist had to put in extra stitches to help control the bleeding. I stopped the nattokinase for 4 days until the bleeding finally tapered off. I also developed a large ugly bruise on my chin where the dentist held my chin while pulling the tooth roots. I felt the bruise was dis-proportionally large compared to how firmly he held my chin. I almost never bruise unless the trauma is severe and was shocked when this one showed up about 24 hours after the procedure. I know this data point falls in the anecdotal category but it sure proved to me that nattokinase affects clotting function.

Scary. There are severe consequences for either too much or too little, in addition to having no controls.

Hi Larry,

I'm new to the site. I'm doing lot's of research on natural blood thinners because not only do I have lone paroxysmal Afib (10yrs), but in the last two years I've suffered two TIA's (micro-strokes) and was told by neurologists/cardiologists to go onto Apixaban (Eliquis). The neurologist said that if I don't, then more likely than not, within the next 10 years, I would have a catastrophic stroke!! (my mum had one age 78).

I was naturally v concerned and actually went through the process of acquiring Apixaban. BUT I could not bring myself to actually take it! I want to remain drug-free as long as possible (I'm 60) and I maintain a very healthy lifestyle/diet (apart from stress!). I would be on about five drugs and have had an ablation by now if I had cooperated with consultants w.r.t all my chronic ailments. Yet I've managed to control all of them naturally, except I'm obviously now very nervous about my stroke risk.

Anyway, it's refreshing to have found someone else who is also trying to get to the bottom of natural blood thinners (I read your other post of 2012 also so far). After taking almost everything I could find which naturally "thins" the blood, I was actually hoping to find that I would bleed or bruise easily, just as a bit of evidence that they're working! But I have not yet done so. So I'm interested to hear your story, albeit, as you say, in the 'anecdotal' category. Various family and friends repeatedly ask me " how do you know your blood is not now too "thin"?" and my response is always, "I'd love it if that were the case, because I'd then be achieving what Apixaban achieves without the side effects". However, I've always suspected (but little evidence for this), that natural foods/supplements are unlikely to tip the human body into any dangerous extreme (although your recent experience at the dentist may disprove that). In fact I understand that Lumbrokinase (at least) does not have any affect on PT or INR.

As well as Nattokinase, I take Serrapeptase and Lumbrokinase . I suspect the last one has the biggest impact, but can't prove that. I take maximum dosage of all of these, and I also take about another dozen supplements (e.g. fish oils, garlic, white willow extract, vine leaf extract, hawthorn berry....etc etc) In fact anything which remotely thins the blood. It's costing me a small fortune (esp Lumbrokinase) but I figure my life is worth it!

The thrombotic process is pretty complex. I understand that there are many proteins and about a dozen and processes involved. I'm still trying to figure out why Asprin is not conidered effective for Afibers (recent study) or DVT (ie appears to be inneffective for clots formed by blood pooling) but it is effective for arterial blood clots (ie those formed by damage to arteries). I don't think anyone knows. Just seems a bit weird. Asprin is described as anti-platelet clumping. I think other compounds (like Nattokinase) address the formation of fibrin, whcih seems to be more important for clots formed by pooling.

Anyway, I could write all day on this subject but will sign off for now
Rob

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robh
"I'd love it if that were the case, because I'd then be achieving what Apixaban achieves without the side effects".

You enjoy cranial hemorrhage ?? You've had two TIA's? You do know that the risk of stroke goes up dramatically for people that have had even one TIA, right?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2018 10:50AM by jpeters.

Hi jpeters,

Thanks for your comment.

That response I give to my friends is a bit tongue in cheek to make a point, but yes, I am accutely aware of my risk of a full blown stroke. I have seen a cardiologist and two neurologists and they put it in no uncertain terms. I've also researched it thoroughly.

My TIA's were due to micro-clots, so my blood is obviously prone to coagulation rather than haemorrhages, so I need to swing it the other way, which is what pharma blood thinners do, at the much smaller risk of causing haemorrhages. Obviously I dont' want one of those either, but I am looking for evidence that I've managed to make my blood 'thinner' or, to be more precise, less prone to clotting (which I've yet to prove). So I don't blame anyone for saying I'm nuts not to have gone onto pharma blood thinners, but I honestly believe that my risk of a haemorrhage right now is very low (certainly lower than if I were on Apixaban/Eliquis).

Hence I'm maxing out on natural blood thinners, but I am continually researching and reassessing and welcome being challenged, because the the stakes are obviously very high for me.

robh. - Your blood thinning regimen is of great concern to me. Although I relied on Nattokinase for many years since I was unable to stabilize warfarin for consistent INR.... and while definitely approve of the fibrinolytic enzymes, you may be over-thinning with your regimen. Be very sure you are aware of the consequences.

Since I have a low platelet count, it's always been a challenge for me to use the Rx anticoagulants... esp. warfarin and I did a lot of research on nattokinase and used it successfully during long bouts of Afib over periods of several years prior to my first ablation and after. In the forum archives, I've offered several reports on Sticky Thick Blood and the Risk of Stroke or MI... and Clot Risk... which emphasize the lab tests that help assess your influencing factors and include markers of inflammation... since inflammation is a prime factor that makes blood thick and sticky. The related links are listed at the end of this message...and I certainly hope you will read those and take action on the labs so you can work on factors in addition to the fibrin that are highly important for all afibbers and especially an afibber with your history.

The concern, however, is that you absolutely must be aware of what factors typically lie behind the tendency for blood to be overly viscous or thick - aka hyperviscosity... which then puts you at risk for stroke or MI. Not everyone knows when they are having afib..even when awake versus during sleep. And with your history of TIAs... you should definitely have the appropriate lab tests that indicate the various influences for clot risk. Monitoring those tests regularly is essential. Often times, it's lifestyle factors that increase these risk markers so once you know which are out of range, you can target those to bring into safe range.

Obviously, you definitely don't want to over-thin with the combination of ‘natural agents' you are taking.

You should consider that it's best to choose one highly-reliable brand of either Nattokinase or Lumbrokinase and stick with the optimal dosing. It may be risky to take all three enzymes as you are doing... especially since you are adding in the additional products that also help keep blood less viscous such as the white willow bark... and be cautious as to the amount of omega 3's.

We want you to be safe.

Jackie

Reading list… and lots more if you search the topic using the Advanced Search… all dates in the Afibber’s Forum.


Sticky, thick blood - risk of stroke or MI
[www.afibbers.org]

Clot Risk
[www.afibbers.org]

Lumbrokinase for Clot Risk Prevention
[www.afibbers.org]

Nattokinase Heart Attack and Stroke Prevention
[www.afibbers.org]

Hi Jackie,

Thank you very much for your helpful response. I will follow and read all the links with great interest. One comment/quesion I have (which may be answered in the links), is that I had always felt it very unlikely that natural thinners could make the blood too thin, because nature generally has a way of being 'safe', unlike drugs. Natural foods/extracts may not generall be as potent/effective as drugs, but the're generally safer.

I felt it would be a bit like saying "eating too much fish can put one at risk of a haemorrhage", or for that matter too much garlic, or natto, or even too many worms! . But I'm talking extracts (from those 'foods') and so,on reflection, I can see that 'over-dosing' is concievable. I also see how one can O/D on a tree bark (ie white willow bark) as it's more medicinal than a 'food'. Anyway I'm off to read the links, and thanks again.

Rob

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robh
Hi Jackie,

nature generally has a way of being 'safe', unlike drugs. Natural foods/extracts may not generall be as potent/effective as drugs, but the're generally safer.

Only when they're ingested via a balanced diet. Never as supplements, or even concentrated green drinks. When that's the case, see them as medicine.

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jpeters
Only when they're ingested via a balanced diet. Never as supplements, or even concentrated green drinks. When that's the case, see them as medicine.

Spot on.

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jpeters

Only when they're ingested via a balanced diet. Never as supplements, or even concentrated green drinks. When that's the case, see them as medicine.

Well, I would rather see supplements as medicine than that poison the doctors hand out.

Liz



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2018 12:26AM by Elizabeth.

jpeters and carey, I see you are both new to this forum and wonder who you are working for? which drug company.

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colindo
jpeters and carey, I see you are both new to this forum and wonder who you are working for? which drug company.

I take warfarin, so don't think I'd make much money there. For profits, think I'd try enhanced drinks. Always target the suckers. From todays Wall Street Journal:

"Conglomerates and startups alike are placing bets on “enhanced” drinks that promise everything from better sleep to a more youthful complexion. While sales of such drinks are rising—up 11% in the past year to $3 billion, according to market-research firm Spins—hundreds of new ones are launched each year, and the majority peter out within a couple of years. Finding success involves the right mix of funding, taste, health claims and luck."

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colindo
jpeters and carey, I see you are both new to this forum and wonder who you are working for? which drug company.

Are you this rude to everyone? Why don't you ask Shannon who I am.

Rob, with all the 'natural' supplements you are taking you must be very careful taking Eliquis as well. Listen to the pharmD in one of the last talks at the recent Dallas afib seminar.

Hi Rob - Thanks for your reply. Yes... if you are using natto food, then you're definitely not likely to 'over-thin' but my concern was that with the supplement forms of nattokinase, lumbrokinase and even serrapeptase, since they are concentrated and taking a significant amount of all of them combined might be risky.... although I've not read warnings or contraindications in my many years of research on the topic. People eating natto are healthy... and avoid many typical health issues caused by hyperviscosity.

My experience is mainly with nattokinase supplements, used over a period of about 13 years for afib prior to my first ablation and then afterwards for 11 years. I've posted about my clot experience 103 days after my first ablation when I went back into AF and was off the warfarin but back on NK. Clot apparently resolved since I survived. I have used other systemic enzymes and also lumbrokinase as well.

The concentrated and isolated nutrients found in supplements produced by reputable suppliers offer the benefits of 'targeted' nutrients in the specific forms that the body requires for utilization in the various cycles and pathways to help keep our systems optimized and functional. These days, unless you grow it organically yourself, there are many agricultural interferences that circumvent optimizing many of the critical functional nutrients. So those of us who don't want to rely on medications to manage 'symptoms' find that targeted nutrient can keep us healthy and without side effects.

Be well,
Jackie

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Jackie
So those of us who don't want to rely on medications to manage 'symptoms' find that targeted nutrient can keep us healthy and without side effects.

Great, I'll stop taking warfarin immediately. Thanks!!!

Joe,
Thanks for your comment. Just to clarify I'm not on Eliquis, or any pharma's. I've had two TIA's in last 2 years (so obviously quite serious) and was advised to take Eliquis, but have not done so yet, preferring to use only natural thinners. Sorry if I confused in my post. Jackie and others have warned that I could be O/Ding on the natural thinners. Something I'm taking seriously and researching further.

Jackie,
Thanks for your further advice. I'm still reading through all your (and other) previous posts and links. It's a treasure trove of information, but taking me a while to get through and absorb it all. I've still got lots of questions in my head, but once I've finished reading it all, I'll post a list of the things which are still puzzling me.
Rob

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robh
I've had two TIA's in last 2 years (so obviously quite serious) and was advised to take Eliquis, but have not done so yet, preferring to use only natural thinners.

Quite serious would be an understatement. I'm astonished that you are knowingly exposing yourself to imminent risk of stroke despite having proof that your natural approach isn't working. Whatever risk you perceive from Eliquis is dwarfed by the risk of stroke you're exposing yourself to. Have you seen firsthand what strokes do to people?

Hi Carey,

I don't disagree with you, except prior to my second TIA i was on a relatively meagre dose of natural thinners, becuase I wasn't convinced it was a TIA (nothing on scan/could have been other things etc etc), but when i had my second TIA (1.5yrs later), it became clear that these were TIA's (although again nothing on scan which is normal for TIA's) and that's when I massively ramped up the natural thinners, so I don't reallly have proof that my current natural regimen is not working. At that point my fibrinogen levels fell by half (to well below the normal range), so there is some evidence that they're doing something.

Not sure if you saw my other posts, but I'm taking so many natural 'thinners' now that several people have pointed out that I may be O/Ding and risking blood being too thin. I'm now researching that thoroughly, but I obviously cannot be simultaneously risking a clot and risking a heamorrhage (at least I dont think I can!! )

To your other point, I have unfortunately seen what a stroke does at first hand, as my mother had a very serious one from which she didn't recover. So its' not that I don't appreciate the seriousness and the risk. It's just that I really want to try and resolve the problem naturally if I can.

BTW i have other reasons to believe that my blood may be susceptible to clottting (eg diagnosed with Lyme disease) and I am addressing that too

robh - I'm really sorry to read about the Lyme Dx....

Many years after the fact, I tested positive for 'latent Lyme infection markers'.... indicating that I had previous exposure... but I had never been tested specifically for Lyme. It could have easily coordinated with the onset of my AF because of the related inflammation. Around that same time, I was being treated for muscle pain and weakness with meds that didn't work... and ultimately, I eventually tested extremely low in Vitamin D. Getting that level in the high-normal range also restored muscle function and eliminated the pain. But, the Lyme could certainly also have been contributing to the pain... and obviously, the raging inflammation causing the onset of Afib. As time went on, a physician specializing in Functional Medicine moved into our area and I became a patient. The initial testing did detect elevated markers of inflammation (which we managed with targeted supplements), but it wasn't until much later when testing for Lyme became relevant in this area that was I tested and found to have the old exposure markers.

I can share with you my research offered by Lyme Literate Doctors (LLDs). Just let me know.

Treating Lyme a long haul and Lyme is definitely known to underlie arrhythmia. I've corresponded with several afibbers who were also diagnosed with Lyme so I am very aware of the complications the treatments can stimulate with the heart including arrhythmia. The viscosity issue is well-known in Lyme patients... so once again, I was pleased that I had the benefit of nattokinase to help keep the blood clot-free. Quite possibly, your TIAs were Lyme related if it was early into the exposure due to the huge amount of inflammatory response Lyme provokes.

I certainly wish you well with this project.

Jackie

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robh


To your other point, I have unfortunately seen what a stroke does at first hand, as my mother had a very serious one from which she didn't recover. So its' not that I don't appreciate the seriousness and the risk. It's just that I really want to try and resolve the problem naturally if I can.

This is why I like blood tests. I was able to raise my INR "naturally", so take a minuscule dose of warfarin. I don't think the body cares how you get there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2018 10:38AM by jpeters.

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jpeters

[I was able to raise my INR "naturally", so take a minuscule dose of warfarin.]

So did you raise your INR with natural thinners plus a minuscule dose of Warfarin, or just the Warfarin?. I haven't got my head around what impacts PT/INR yet and what doesn't (I know Warfarin does, but not sure about other thinners) and whether it always matters (for thinners, other than Warfarin). Since INR is a measurement of clotting speed, it would seem logical that it does matter for all types of thinner. Thanks!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2018 01:38PM by robh.

robh, You may find this helpful [ndnr.com]#

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robh




So did you raise your INR with natural thinners plus a minuscule dose of Warfarin, or just the Warfarin?. I haven't got my head around what impacts PT/INR yet and what doesn't (I know Warfarin does, but not sure about other thinners) and whether it always matters (for thinners, other than Warfarin). Since INR is a measurement of clotting speed, it would seem logical that it does matter for all types of thinner. Thanks!

Surprisingly, I added MK-7 made via fermentation by Natto, and it raised my INR. That's always good news, since I eat lots of greens, nuts, etc. I'm taking 2.5 mg of warfarin, and was happy to learn it's also good for cancer prevention. I guess I'm fortunate in having no bruising or other side effects. Probably rutin helps.

jpeters,

Thanks for your follow up explanation. Very interesting. I had never heard of a mixed approach before and assumed it was not possible. So it's another option for me to add to my list. It's set me wondering whether I could do a mixed approach with small doses of the new NOACs. The key to it all is measurability of proven viscosity markers (something I'm still reading about on this site)

Jackie,

I nearly missed your recent post on Lyme. My bloods recently tested positive for various Lyme-related bacteria. I don't know how reliable it was or how long I've had Lyme (I've heard ND's claim that c40% of population have Lyme). I've started on a protocol, recommended by my accupuncturist who is also Lyme-positive (includes multi-herbs, colloidal silver, probiotics etc). I have had very many chronic ailments (mostly inflammatory) over the years. None have been seriously debilitating, apart from sometimes hobbling badly due to 'inflammed' toes or soles of feet and weekly migraine headaches and of course my original afib attacks which rendered me bed-ridden.

I think I've managed to minimise the inflammatory symptoms over the last 2-3years with a "super-healthy" diet. I'm alcohol and gluten-free and predominantly vegan. But all my symptoms could be caused predominantly by Lyme (although a genetic test also indicated that I have the MTHFR mutation) so I really need to get Lyme under control. Then, all my ailments may disappear! (even my exceptionally low blood pressure [often 100/60]).

My research into Lyme (which has so far not yielded any solid protocol) has been put on hold due to the more pressing issue of whether, and to what degree, I should be using natural blood thinners. So it would be fantastic if you could share your research offered by Lyme Literate Doctors, thanks.

Rob

robh - The underlying Lyme infection can cause a lot of inflammatory responses....and many other symptoms as well...and they all tend to generate increased heart 'activity' in those with afib. That just makes sense considering what is known about inflammation and irritation to heart cells.... so great if you have those mostly under control.

Additionally, with the MTHFR gene mutation, there are many substances that tend to act as 'triggers' for AF.... it can be food, chemicals, nutrients.... and it takes a long time to isolate all of those individually so your heart can remain calm. Even after ablation, one of the former afibbers with the MTHFR mutation would have afib and often bouts of a lot of ectopic beats. She found that working with a practitioner who does Applied Kinesiology helped her isolate the culprit substances quickly.

I'll send you a PM with the LLD info and other research links.

Jackie

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robh
jpeters,
It's set me wondering whether I could do a mixed approach with small doses of the new NOACs. The key to it all is measurability of proven viscosity markers (something I'm still reading about on this site)

"He added, "Furthermore, the perceived increased safety of the lower dose may not be as substantial as many clinicians may think, and the decrease in stroke prevention expected with the lower dose may be much greater in magnitude than suspected." "

[www.medscape.com]