Natto food V's Nattokinase: Which is best?

Natto food V's Nattokinase: Which is best?

With stroke and afib being the current topic on the forum (and bordering on the hysterical from some posters). I thought I would post this excellent article from Dr John Day, an EP and former President of the Heart Rhythm Society of the US who eats natto food daily.

This is a very down to earth discussion on the pro's and con's of afib, natto food, nattokinase, blood thinners and stroke.

I have been eating natto food for 14yrs now and haven't had an afib event in this time yet my GP and EP still want me to go on blood thinners. I have a CHAD score of 1 and I take one tablet a day for blood pressure mostly because being an Aussie I drink a fair bit of beer and red wine. There is no way I am swapping the amazing benefits of natto food for blood thinners!!

I will be seeing my EP shortly for my yearly visit so will have another “animated” discussion on the stroke issue with him. My EP say's about natto food: “we should be looking much more into these sorts of thing”. So he doesn't doubt eating natto food has helped stop my LAF.

Dean

[drjohnday.com]

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

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Dean

I have been eating natto food for 14yrs now and haven't had an afib event in this time yet my GP and EP still want me to go on blood thinners. I have a CHAD score of 1 and I take one tablet a day for blood pressure mostly because being an Aussie I drink a fair bit of beer and red wine. There is no way I am swapping the amazing benefits of natto food for blood thinners!!

Probably the beer and wine stopped the afib, a well known treatment used by many people for almost everything.

(especially as an escape from reality)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2018 09:33PM by jpeters.

Dwan has posted many benefits of natto food over the years. One that I always thought interesting was how bacillus subtilis (which is the ferementing bacteria in Natto) is also in fresh camel dung. Tunrs out the Germans used this to ward off dysentery in N. Africa in WWII <[www.afibbers.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2018 10:23PM by GeorgeN.

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Dean
Natto food V's Nattokinase: Which is best?

With stroke and afib being the current topic on the forum (and bordering on the hysterical from some posters). I thought I would post this excellent article from Dr John Day, an EP and former President of the Heart Rhythm Society of the US who eats natto food daily.

"While most of my atrial fibrillation patients would love to take nattokinase rather than their blood thinner, there are no studies showing that nattokinase works for atrial fibrillation. Anecdotally, I have seen a stroke in one of my atrial fibrillation patients who faithfully took her nattokinase. Even though I recommended a stronger prescription blood thinner in this patient, she was confident that nattokinase would protect her. Since her stroke, she now reluctantly takes a proven atrial fibrillation blood thinner."

jpeters - please moderate your responses. The comment about escape from reality is quite nasty.

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Sam
jpeters - please moderate your responses. The comment about escape from reality is quite nasty.

Not as bad as dying from a clot....

I edited the last comment in because a number of readers would think I was recommending beer and wine. You can't be subtle on a message board:

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As someone stated on another thread we are all different and what works for one probably won't work for another. The beer and whine remedy mentioned supprises me. Beer and whine (alcohol) are triggers for me.

Point #2: EP's will not recommend a blood thinner without a good reason. Quite the opposite, they will discontinue them after fixing the situation (e.g, after the blanking period of a successful ablation).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2018 10:51AM by jpeters.

On the serious note, Dean's afib was triggered by gastrointestinal distress. As I recall, he was using PPI's to mitigate this. He introduced natto food and worked out how best to incorporate it to keep afib at bay. He wrote this in 2006: <[www.afibbers.org] I recall reading this at the time. For those with a digestive trigger, this may be worth looking at. This is a totally separate discussion from the anti-coagulation issue.

A question occurs: I'm pretty clear, and remember reading on this forum some years ago, that natto (food) would be contraindicated for those of us on warfarin. What about for those on Eliquis and the other NOACs, which as I understand it don't depend on the vitamin K interaction?

In short, could someone on Eliquis benefit from eating natto?

I note a thread from 2015 on Eliquis and nattokinase, but maybe that's a different situation, or maybe things have changed since then?

Thanks!

--Lance

I will just follow my EP’s advice and take my Eliquis. Oh Dr. Natale is my EP.

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ln108
A question occurs: I'm pretty clear, and remember reading on this forum some years ago, that natto (food) would be contraindicated for those of us on warfarin. What about for those on Eliquis and the other NOACs, which as I understand it don't depend on the vitamin K interaction?

In short, could someone on Eliquis benefit from eating natto?

I note a thread from 2015 on Eliquis and nattokinase, but maybe that's a different situation, or maybe things have changed since then?

Thanks!

Lance, my understanding is that natto food increases vitamin K2. This may increase a needed warfarin dose (which acts on both K1 & K2, but K1 is what impacts clotting), but likely won't impact NOAC's, but I'd ask.

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GeorgeN



Lance, my understanding is that natto food increases vitamin K2. This may increase a needed warfarin dose (which acts on both K1 & K2, but K1 is what impacts clotting), but likely won't impact NOAC's, but I'd ask.

I'm using MK-7 made via natto. My INR actually went up, so I cut down my warfarin dosage. Just an observation...I haven't really tested it thoroughly.

One of the things in the natto food that I am certain has kept my afib at bay for 14yrs is the large amount of the phytoestrogen Genistein it contains. If you google Genistein and Ion Channels there is a fair amount of research going on about Genistein and how it alters the cardiac ion channels. Genistein has even been discussed as a possible antiarrhythmic drug by researchers.

This is an extract from one of those research papers. If anyone can understand it please elaborate!! But you can basically fathom where it is heading:

"The simplest explanation for the fact that genistein increases the β-adrenergic sensitivity of cardiac Cl−, K+, and Ca2+ channels is that basal tyrosine kinase activity exerts a tonic inhibitory influence on some element in the cAMP-signaling pathway that is involved in regulating all of these channels."

"β-Adrenergic regulation of ion channels is a ubiquitous mechanism for controlling both cardiac electrical and mechanical activity. It would be interesting to investigate the possibility of whether or not alterations in this signaling process could contribute to the changes in β-adrenergic responsiveness and susceptibility to arrhythmias that occur under conditions such as heart failure."

[www.ahajournals.org]

Genistein also has strong preventative and anticancer properties for prostate, breast, gastric and lung cancers.

So natto food has so many good properties I would only very reluctantly give it up for blood thinning drugs.

Dean

Fascinating stuff Dean. Also see:

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

What I can't work out is exactly how the Ca ion channels are affected. If genistein significantly reduces Ca being able to able to get into cardiac cells (thus reducing Ca and increasing Mg in cardiac cells) then that is certainly of great interest to me at least as I've always believed that my genetic predisposition to AF is linked to too much Ca in cardiac cells (born out in an Exotest in 2010 that showed by IC Ca levels way over range and Mg way under).

If anyone more research-savvy than me can take a look and establish that genistein DOES reduce IC ca then I'd definitely appreciate it!

Mike F

EDIT:

Also take a look at this Dean:

[phenol-explorer.eu]

Maybe I'm reaidng it wrong but it looks as though beer contains quite a bit of genistein! Fermented tofu looks best and contains way more than natto!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2018 02:55AM by mwcf.

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GeorgeN
Lance, my understanding is that natto food increases vitamin K2. This may increase a needed warfarin dose (which acts on both K1 & K2, but K1 is what impacts clotting), but likely won't impact NOAC's, but I'd ask.

Thanks, George. I guess, upon further thought, that my concern was whether natto food would increase bleeding danger for folks on Eliquis or other NOACs.

--Lance

Hello Dean - Great to see you posting again. It's undoubtedly the natto connection that helped reduce your GI symptoms as George mentions. Natto is well known to have a variety of healing effects along with the side benefit of working on the fibrin aspect of the adverse clotting concerns.

For new readers who aren't yet using anticoagulants and who may not be familiar with nattokinase, previous reports can be read in the Conference Room sessions at this link: scroll down to Sessions 39 and 40 ...[www.afibbers.org]

While those posts are from years ago, it gives foundational background of how nattokinase works to keep clots from forming. I certainly had lots of experience with that as I was unable to tolerate warfarin and decided to research nattokinase, as I had seen it mentioned at Dr. Garry Gordon's website when talking about reducing stroke risk. He also endorsed other specific enzymes. I chose nattokinase and was fortunate enough to make contact with Dr. Ralph Holsworth who was the pioneer here in the US for bringing it in supplement form to the US. He shared with me how he used it with his patients and especially those who had been on warfarin for many years and then had complications of calcification buildup in various tissues... one, was a very severe case of pulmonary calcifications as from the warfarin use that eventually were broken down and eliminated as a result of using the NK... in the form of menaquinone 7 or K2 MK7.

Prior to my first ablation, I had many very lengthy and frequent afib events and fortunately, the NK did help to prevent clot formation.

I have not seen any recent data indicating that it would be a good idea to combine any form of natto with Eliquis or any of the other new anticoagulants. I know I'd certainly rather be on nattokinase than Eliquis.


Lance...Vitamin K has several components... K1 and K2 which has two are the most known plus several other forms called isomers. It's the K1 portion of Vitamin K or phyloquinone that reflects in the INR.

The active isomers in K2 are mentatrenone (MK4) and menaquinone 7 or MK7... which is the longer lasting of the two and is why that's the specified isomer when using K2 ..often designated as K2 MK7. But most supplements of vitamin K include all three components K1 MK4 and MK7... so it may likely cause some fluctuations in the INR if you add that unless you can fine tune that with dietary intake of K1.... so you would probably need the supervision of a physician who fully understood the interaction of the NK components and warfarin.

Jackie

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mwcf
Maybe I'm reaidng it wrong but it looks as though beer contains quite a bit of genistein! Fermented tofu looks best and contains way more than natto!!

Mike, I think you missed the e-03 on the beer hence 1.00e-03 (which equals 0.001). Therefore beer is 0.001 mg/100 ml (or 100g since 1 ml water = 1g) vs natto 4.28 mg/100g.

Dean,

Interesting, I remember you saying years ago you thought the benefit was from the bacillus subtilis. This indicates you think it is from the genistein from the soy itself.

Also, didn't you post about having some issues from the phytoestrogens in the natto?

Cheers,

George

jpeters and all,

With reference to your posting 're Dr John Days blog. See below.
He didn't say what the woman's CHAD score was, if it was 3 or more she should have been on a blood thinner.
Nattokinase is a fibrinolytic which assist the bodies blood plasma in disolving fibrin and lowers fibrinogen levels, preventing the blood platelets from sticking together. Simular to a baby aspro. So on it's own it's not strong enough.

Natto (food) on the otherhand is loaded with vitamin K2 which dissolves calcium and reduces calcification of your arteries and directs the calcium to your bones. Thus reducing the risk of strokes.
Natto also lowers LDL and triglycerides.

Dean has touched on some of the benefits of natto (food) but there are others.
Each gram contain up to a billion CFU probiotics, so each 40 or 50 grams you eat you are getting up to 50 billion CFU's.

It improves blood flow and lowers blood pressure, (but not in Dean's case, you'll have cut back a bit Dean).... It improves your skin condition......well in my case it has. No more winter itch.... If it's looking good on the outside what it doing on the inside. Even better I suggest.
There are other things I have notice like faster growing finger and toenails, more hear growth, i even have have hair grown again on my bald head. Well a little bit.
Taking natto for 4 months has also lowered my afib burden, more about that later.

It has also been discovered to dissolve nasal polyps.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

So Natto food is pretty great stuff.... you just got to learn how to eat it... You have to get over the smell, which is not as bad as some would make you belive and find a preparation that suits you.


While most of my atrial fibrillation patients would love to take nattokinase rather than their blood thinner, there are no studies showing that nattokinase works for atrial fibrillation. Anecdotally, I have seen a stroke in one of my atrial fibrillation patients who faithfully took her nattokinase. Even though I recommended a stronger prescription blood thinner in this patient, she was confident that nattokinase would protect her. Since her stroke, she now reluctantly takes a proven atrial fibrillation blood thinner."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2018 03:49PM by colindo.

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Jackie
I have not seen any recent data indicating that it would be a good idea to combine any form of natto with Eliquis or any of the other new anticoagulants. I know I'd certainly rather be on nattokinase than Eliquis.

I presume you mean from the side effects you experienced, not on the stroke prevention efficacy. I don't think anyone suggests that someone with a large stroke risk should not be on an anticoagulant med.

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GeorgeN

I have not seen any recent data indicating that it would be a good idea to combine any form of natto with Eliquis or any of the other new anticoagulants. I know I'd certainly rather be on nattokinase than Eliquis.


I presume you mean from the side effects you experienced, not on the stroke prevention efficacy. I don't think anyone suggests that someone with a large stroke risk should not be on an anticoagulant med.

Thanks for clarifying that. Nobody wants to be on meds, but substituting supplements can be expensive (what does it cost to spend the rest of your life in a care facility after the stroke?)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2018 05:14PM by jpeters.

Thanks George, good eye. Yes - sorry for the ambiguity.
Jackie

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colindo

So Natto food is pretty great stuff.... you just got to learn how to eat it... You have to get over the smell, which is not as bad as some would make you belive and find a preparation that suits you.

It's not bad tasting at all. Even my two grandsons (both just over 1yo) like to eat it

Should all of us on blood thinners who are healthy with no comorbidities switch to eating natto instead?

Especially if it was able to keep you Afib free for 14 years!

For myself, I've had afib for over 14 years. I've kept myself in afib remission with a very small AF burden (I haven't calculated in a while, but < 0.01% as I recall). My first 4 months included a 2.5 month episode. I was on warfarin for the last month or so of that episode and the first 3 or 4 weeks after, but no anti-coagulation since. My CHA2DS2-VASc is 0. I also keep my A1C < 5, fasting insulin <3 and other inflammatory metrics very low. I'm comfortable with my decision. Wouldn't dare give anyone else advice in this area.

Whitehaven - Absolutely not.

It would be totally irresponsible to suggest that anyone on blood thinners go off them unless you had the endorsement of your cardiologist or EP and that's not likely to be the case because of their medico/legal liability.

When I've posted about my stopping warfarin back in the days when there were no other anticoag options, I did it because I had significant difficulty stabilizing the INR and that caused various problems including taking emergency vitamin K as an antidote when the INR out of range. As a result, I also began doing a lot of research and had many discussions with those doctors promoting the efficacy of systemic/fibrinolytic enzymes to help reduce clot risk... such as lumbrokinase, Wobenzyme, nattokinase, etc. I decided to use the nattokinase.

I then met with my cardiologist who was connected with the EP department at the CCF and told him what I was going to do. I offered to sign a waiver which he declined. Also, at the time, I was already in the care of my FM MD and knew all the various markers for contributors to stroke risk such as CRP, glucose, fibrinogen, etc. from those various tests in my posts. Plus…I was in my early 60's and otherwise healthy.

I was 67 for my first ablation. Went back on warfarin for that and immediately went back on NK when I was released from the warfarin. I remained on the NK and continued to monitor all my clot risk markers for 11 years until I started up again, that time with long Aflutter episodes that almost always required ECV. The nattokinase regimen worked well for me all those years….but I was and, still am, very diligent about testing all those clot-risk markers regularly.

There are previous posts where I related my experience with a clot formation in my LAA right after my first ablation and after the blanking period had ended. Back then, it was routine to have a heart CT scan post-ablation as prep for the 3 mo. checkback with Dr. Natale. I stopped warfarin/Coumadin after 90 days. The week before the CT scan date, and at 103 days post ablation, I went into an extended Afib event and had ECV at 27 hours the next day. Either the prolonged Afib or the ECV or both, caused a clot to form in the LAA and that showed up on the scan. However, it wasn’t flagged or mentioned to me so I didn’t know it until I received a copy of the scan results 6 weeks later. I’ve often remarked…good thing I went back on the NK as soon as I stopped the warfarin and I certainly was fortunate not to have had a calamity. When I talked to Dr. Natale’s EP nurse about the clot report… we all agreed that I it was a good thing I was using the Nattokinase.

Everyone, afibbers or otherwise, should make sure they routinely test for those specific clot-risk markers to help avoid strokes and MI’s. If your doctor dismisses the need for it, find another physician.

Jackie

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Jackie
Either the prolonged Afib or the ECV or both, caused a clot to form in the LAA and that showed up on the scan. However, it wasn’t flagged or mentioned to me so I didn’t know it until I received a copy of the scan results 6 weeks later.

Jackie

Hopefully, you were clear before the ECV.

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whitehaven
Especially if it was able to keep you Afib free for 14 years!

Natto does not prevent afib.

jpeters... no.. the ECV came first, then the CT scan. Sorry if I didn't type the chronology clearly.
That's why we were all both pleased and obviously relieved to know that the NK was that effective.
I had thought the prolonged AF duration was the most likely clot cause but other readers suggested
it was more likely the ECV.

However, prior to my second ablation when I had so many ECV's because the flutter often didn't oft resolve on its own ...
I had an abundance of ECVs... all with NK and survived the clot issue. A couple times I had ECV's only week apart.

Then, when ablation was scheduled, I did go on Eliquis.

Jackie

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Jackie
jpeters... no.. the ECV came first, then the CT scan. Sorry if I didn't type the chronology clearly.
That's why we were all both pleased and obviously relieved to know that the NK was that effective.
I had thought the prolonged AF duration was the most likely clot cause but other readers suggested
it was more likely the ECV.

However, prior to my second ablation when I had so many ECV's because the flutter often didn't oft resolve on its own ...
I had an abundance of ECVs... all with NK and survived the clot issue. A couple times I had ECV's only week apart.

Then, when ablation was scheduled, I did go on Eliquis.

Jackie

I've had to have a TEE prior to a cardioversion since an existing clot can easily cause a stroke. Also prior to an ablation.

Carey,
have you tried Natto?
We know of at least one person whom it has stopped his afib.
Its early days for me but I think it is helping to reduce my afib burden. If it's not then at least I am receiving all the many benefits it offers.

Natto cures afib. Now I've heard everything.

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Carey
Natto cures afib. Now I've heard everything.

I was here before Dean started Natto. His afib clearly had a digestion related afib driver. In his case, the natto mitigated this issue and has allowed him to stay in afib remission for a very long time. Would I make a universal claim about natto and afib. Certainly not. Clearly if I had GERD that seems to initiate my afib, it would experiment with it.

There was a doc from Hawaii who fit this pretty well, about 12 years ago. He went to the trouble of Nissen fundoplication surgery which did resolve his afib, as I recall. If I had been him, I would have tried natto food first, but that's just me.

I would not say natto cures afib, but it has helped at least 1 person stay in afib remission.

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GeorgeN
I would not say natto cures afib, but it has helped at least 1 person stay in afib remission.

That's fine, but think passing on the notion that natto is a cure for afib is a bad idea, especially for the reputation of the site.

No one is passing the notion that natto is a cure for Afib, but the science suggests it could help some of us with regards to blood thinners.

[undergroundhealthreporter.com]

I know your main focus is ablations which is not a cure for Afib but please keep an open mind to alternatives.

jpeters - Yes - Keep in mind that my clot saga was early 2004. When I needed ECVs 10 years later, the TEE was always done right before the ECV which obviously makes sense.

Jackie

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colindo
No one is passing the notion that natto is a cure for Afib, but the science suggests it could help some of us with regards to blood thinners.

[undergroundhealthreporter.com]

I know your main focus is ablations which is not a cure for Afib but please keep an open mind to alternatives.

I don't have a main focus on ablations or anything else. Show me something that actually works, is safe, and has evidence to support it, and I'm all in. I've never disputed that natto has anticoagulant properties. I spoke up to correct someone who was led to believe natto could prevent afib. Why am I getting push back on that?

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Carey
I've never disputed that natto has anticoagulant properties.

Very weak at best

Colindo - there is an abundance of evidence for the properties of nattokinase and similar fibrinolytic enzymes such as lumbrokinase that work to lower the contributors to elevated fibrin which makes blood more likely to clot because of the "hyperviscosity" characteristic. The field is hemorheology and there is science backing that.

Here's one example from the original investigations published in 2006 that led to the use of nattokinase for this purpose:

[www.researchgate.net]

Jackie

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jpeters

I've never disputed that natto has anticoagulant properties.

Very weak at best

How do you know this?

There are clinical trials due to finish next month so we will know more about the benefits nattokinase in this regard.

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Jackie
Here's one example from the original investigations published in 2006 that led to the use of nattokinase for this purpose:

[www.researchgate.net]

That's an in vitro study so it's very weak evidence. It's really little more than suggestive. What natto needs to be taken seriously is either a placebo controlled trial or a direct comparison to warfarin and/or the NOACs in randomly controlled trials. I'm curious what these studies are that Colindo refers to. The only study I could find that seems applicable and is in progress is this one, and it's not due to be complete until September 2019.

Carey,

Sorry got the wrong year. but attached are the results of a small human trial.

[www.sciencedirect.com]

Very small, barely large enough to be statistically significant, and it only measured physiological parameters, not actual stroke risks. That's what I haven't seen, a clinical trial comparing natto to anything else with clinical measures such as stroke and TIAs. So we really don't know how effective it is at preventing strokes, if at all. Maybe it helps, but how much? I've seen what strokes do to people so it won't be me finding out.

Jackie and Carey
,
I think Colin was referring to this study about nattokinase:

[journals.sagepub.com]

Dean

Interesting paper and I agree natto has promising qualities, but still no human placebo trials measuring clot formation, strokes, TIAs, etc.

At this point I'd say it sounds like it might be a useful thing to take on a daily basis for overall cardiovascular health, but I wouldn't rely on it as an anticoagulant. And I wouldn't take it with anticoagulants either.

There is a lot to learn if one is to either take a drug or a supplement, I take a baby aspirin everyday. After reading about the great benefits of natto or Lumbrokinase, I was going to run it by my Holistic doc but after reading about natto in the URL that Dean supplied, I have second thoughts after the following:

is one report of a patient concurrently using aspirin and NK (400 mg daily), experiencing an acute cerebellar haemorrhage.65 In addition, multiple microbleeds were demonstrated on brain magnetic resonance images suggesting that NK may increase risk of intracerebral haemorrhage in patients who have bleeding-prone cerebral microangiopathy and are taking aspirin concurrently.65 In another report, a patient developed a thrombus in a mechanical valve after nearly a year of NK use without warfarin and underwent a successful repeat valve replacement.

Liz

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colindo


I've never disputed that natto has anticoagulant properties.

Very weak at best

How do you know this?

There are clinical trials due to finish next month so we will know more about the benefits nattokinase in this regard.

When natto's strongest supporters, such as the article by John Day in the initial post, say this (supported by stroke victims under their care who tried it), I'll take their word for it until proven otherwise.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2018 01:13AM by jpeters.