Where I'm at

Hi fellow sufferers

Came across the forum by accident whilst researching, so here's my story. I got diagnosed with AF in November 2017, was a bit miffed, but accepted it as part of the burden of turning 60. My GP put me on Bisoprolol and gave me the scare story tactic so I accepted statins too. Three days into the statins, I quit them, The nightmares were really off the scale, I like a horror movie as much as anyone, but they were beyond scary. GP huffed and puffed, but I said my cholesterol is going to come down naturally.I changed my lifestyle, the coffee and alcohol went, I got out my armchair and walked a lot, processed foods went out the window, generally diet and lifestyle just got a great deal healthier.

Early July I was back to the Cardiologist for a regular check up. I'm lucky, he's always said apart from this AF, I have a strong heart. This latest visit he was very pleased with the reduction in cholesterol to a very safe level and my weight loss, to the point that he discharged me. I opted to stay on the list for the BHF nurse because she's really clued up with advice and I'm still new at this.

Anyway a couple of weeks ago I started to realise that I had a near constant headache, I had a strange itchy sensation in both legs around my shins and that if anything, I was getting attacks of AF every night when I got into bed, to the point where I was leaving my wife to sleep alone because of the uncomfortable nature of my chest pounding. I realised I felt nearer 80 than 60. Something had to be done and I did it. Against all the advice, I quit the Bisoprolol.

Google's your friend they say and I searched pretty much everything with Atrial Fibrillation in the phrase to help me along at that time. It's how I found this site. I figure that if I've developed this foul condition, I'm going to un-develop it as best I can. Anyway, the first couple of days were fine, then the scary part, I reckon I began cold turkeying for the Beta Blockers. Wednesday night was horrendous, chest pumping, slept for only an hour at a time, interrupted by visits to the bathroom where I urinated for Britain!! When I checked my weight in the morning I'd lost over 2 pounds, but considering the lack of sleep, I felt I could run a marathon, more to the point, I still do. I'm taking a few supplements, Magnesium, Co Enzyme Q10 and a couple of hours before bed time, Fish Oil. I'm not daft enough to say it's gone, but it's greatly reduced and most importantly, it's not ruling my life anymore. I still get an occassional twinge in my chest when i get in bed, but I've discovered my weight loss has meant I can lie on my stomach and turn my head to either side and it works for me, symptoms disappear. Unfortunately my wife says I still snore like a Triumph 750 motrocycle!

I know everybody is different and I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to ditch their meds, but I am 100% convinced that Bisoprolol put me into a downward spiral that was gathering pace at an alarming rate. I now feel I control my heart, not the other way around.

Nick



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2018 06:14AM by NtG.

Hi Nick,

A couple of important, life changing/saving thoughts for you.

First, if you are having regular runs of afib, you should be on an anticoagulant. The ugly reality is otherwise you are wide open to having a debilitating stroke.

Second, you mention the snoring. Get tested for sleep apnea, even if you don't think you have it. Sounds to me like there is a very good chance you do. I didn't think I did, but I do. I use my sleep machine every night and I feel great. I adapted to it quickly, especially when I experienced the difference in how I felt. If you need it too, it'll be easier on your heart and likely reduce your afib burden. Also, my sleep doc advised me that I should NEVER sleep on my stomach. It's really bad for apnea, and just as bad for acid reflux.

Some people tolerate beta blockers better than others. If you don't, ask your EP about calcium channel blockers.

AB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2018 08:11AM by AB Page.

I tried bisoprolol and it greatly reduced my heart rate but did nothing to stop afib other than make the episodes a little shorter and less violent until i discovered chewing a propafenone 150 mg. at the start of an afib attack converts me in 15-90 min. everytime.....although with a few changes lately like taking 2x250 mg trans-resveratrol a day and a few others i am in perfect NSR now for 15.5 days when i normally would go in to afib 2 times a week.
Page mentioned an anticoag. well if your not comfortable with pers. blood thinners or you don't think your afib burden is bad enough yet do what i have been doing lately in my successful run of non afib and take Nattokinase 2000fus 1 or 2 times a day. There is some back and forth on how effective it is to thin blood and break up clots but from all the research i have done and tons of testimonials from users it seems outstanding for doing things that even heavy pers. thinners cannot do along with reducing overall body inflammation dramatically....in 10 days it has reduced the swelling in my turf toe to about 1/2 and inflammation plays a part in just about any body ailment including afib in many/most cases so i am a believer in this stuff as i believe it is playing a role in my new found NSR and as mentioned before others have ex. this afib relief while taking this also.
I say experiment with natural stuff you read on the net and scan this incred. site for other natural things for about a year to see if this helps you as the earlier treating something the more likely it is you will get a better result as in any medical case esp. this one before your heart gets used to beating wacky or re mapping itself. Remember what works for 1 may not work for another (there is no end to those examples) so keep trying and after a year or even 6 months if you don't get the results your looking for start thinking about getting an ablation.
GL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2018 09:23AM by vanlith.

Quote
vanlith
There is some back and forth on how effective it is to thin blood and break up clots but from all the research i have done and tons of testimonials from users it seems outstanding for doing things that even heavy pers. thinners cannot do
GL

Supplements like natto are NOT a proven alternative to anticoagulents, as demonstrated in studies and examples of near death experiences.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2018 10:06AM by jpeters.

Supplements like natto are NOT a proven alternative to anticoagulents, as demonstrated in studies and examples of near death experiences

What are the examples of near death experiences? There have been a couple of people on this board that had a stroke and were on blood thinners. That is just on here we don't know about the general population. I know of 3 people that have had strokes and did not have AF.

Liz

Quote
Elizabeth


What are the examples of near death experiences? There have been a couple of people on this board that had a stroke and were on blood thinners. That is just on here we don't know about the general population. I know of 3 people that have had strokes and did not have AF.

Liz

Here's a few they I found immediately. I've read numerous reports of people substituting supplements for anticoagulents and consequently developing serious clots.



"This report describes a patient's self-substitution of nattokinase for the vitamin K antagonist warfarin after aortic valve replacement with a mechanical prosthesis. The clotted valve was removed and replaced with a 23 mm Carbomedics Top Hat valve. "


[www.google.com]


[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

"After nearly a year of use of nattokinase without warfarin, the patient developed thrombus on the mechanical valve and underwent successful repeat valve replacement. We believe this is the first documented case of nattokinase being used as a substitute for warfarin after valve replacement, and we strongly discourage its use for this purpose."

Other quotes from numerous sources (I didn't bother to list them all):

"Further studies on NK are required to determine the details of metabolism, effective dosage and frequency, and safety for human use. Moreover, human trials demonstrating the clinical benefits of this action are limited, with no outcome data is available currently regarding this agent as an alternative to tPA, aspirin, warfarin, or newer anticoagulants."

." Moderate to severe adverse events, such as spinal epidural hematoma, spontaneous intracerebral hemorrhage, retrobulbar hemorrhage, subarachnoid hemorrhage, spontaneous hyphema, and postoperative bleeding, have occasionally been anecdotally associated with consumption of dietary supplements. However, the number of controlled studies in the literature is too limited to demonstrate consistent anticoagulant effects of dietary supplements alone or in combination with drug therapy."

"Nattokinase is a substance found in a common Japanese food called natto, which is made of fermented soybeans. Nattokinase has been shown to have some anti-clotting characteristics, but there is no good scientific data to show that it is safe and effective when used in humans."

"Nattokinase supplements may decrease blood-clotting factors in the blood, however, there are no published clinical studies in people showing that these supplements reduce the risk of blood clots (which, as discussed above, can cause ischemic stroke). "



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2018 11:46AM by jpeters.

When i did my res. on this i saw a lot of these studies are for people with chad scores 2 or higher and all other things related to put them at higher risk of a stroke than most like obesity high BP ect. ect. i would agree that heavy duty blood and clot thinners are nes for them.....hell even myself when i go see Natale in dec.(maybe) i will get off Natto and go on Xarelto for 3 weeks pre and 2-3 months post...but for the moderate to good/great people's heart condition like this thread starter and myself are IMOP better off taking a so called moderate blood/clot/fibrin thinning thing like Natto. then just jumping into heavy duty stuff that come with their own issues.
The type of overall shape you are in and your vitals are much more likely to determine your stroke chance and so should your medication OR OR alternative...in other words condition not good high risk for stroke afib or not=persc. blood thinners......low risk(providing they have short term afib episodes)=Natto. serrepeptase serrazimes.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2018 12:29PM by vanlith.

jpeters said:
"This report describes a patient's self-substitution of nattokinase for the vitamin K antagonist warfarin after aortic valve replacement with a mechanical prosthesis. The clotted valve was removed and replaced with a 23 mm Carbomedics Top Hat valve. "

That type of replacement of an arotic valve is a lot different than a short episode of AF, I agree that a blood thinner should be used in that case.

Liz

Quote
vanlith
.but for the moderate to good/great people's heart condition like this thread starter and myself are IMOP better off taking a so called moderate blood/clot/fibrin thinning thing like Natto. then just jumping into heavy duty stuff that come with their own issues

Well, you'd be wrong, but thankfully you're not his cardiologist.

Quote

I was getting attacks of AF every night when I got into bed, to the point where I was leaving my wife to sleep alone because of the uncomfortable nature of my chest pounding.

Beta blockers don't cause afib, they protect against it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2018 02:08PM by jpeters.

If you maybe go see Dr. Natale in December and he isolates your LAA and you don't continue religiously taking a prescribed NOAC, assuming you tolerate it or warfarin then you are taking a huge gamble with your life. That's not opinion, but backed up by EP's who have seen the devastating strokes that occur on one missed dose. These folks generally have low flow volume from their LAA as well as a poor A wave.

Quote
vanlith
.hell even myself when i go see Natale in dec.(maybe) i will get off Natto and go on Xarelto for 3 weeks pre and 2-3 months post..

He won't do anything unless you're completely clot free. I was in top physical condition when first acquiring afib, and it took about 2 months to resolve sludge so that I could be cardioverted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2018 02:37PM by jpeters.

jpeters:

Atenolol is a beta blocker, which Hans Larsen, the creator of this site, called the medicine from hell. When I first got AF the doc had me taking a beta blocker, Atenolol, which gave me a first degree heart block, (before this site). There are different beta blockers of course, but I stay away from them.

liz

Liz

Quote
Elizabeth
jpeters:

Atenolol is a beta blocker, which Hans Larsen, the creator of this site, called the medicine from hell. When I first got AF the doc had me taking a beta blocker, Atenolol, which gave me a first degree heart block, (before this site). There are different beta blockers of course, but I stay away from them.

liz

Liz

Ha ha....when I was first diagnosed, My cardiologist prescribed beta blockers. I objected vehemently when I next saw him, blaming everything I was feeling on the meds. He got fed up, and simply said "look, you're very sick" and wheeled me into the hospital where I remained for 11 days. I quickly got used to the beta blockers, and watched my heart restore itself to better than normal ejection.

JPeters:

Well, my 1st. degree heart block wasn't in my head, I have a pacemaker because of it. I got an EP instead of the MD that I was seeing and I happened to read his notes on my chart that my 1st. degree heart block was probably due to the beta blocker. I remember one time when I was in an airport and had to walk from one end of the airport to the other end for my flight, I couldn't make it I had to get a ride. Now I am not like that I was always and am very active.

L

I never intended this to be a sarcastic insult event ....cool out guys.....i get enough of that on twitter....did not expect it here.......if i go see Natale rest assured i will be clot free on Xarelto.
All i am saying is if your afib is very mild there is no need to kill a fly with a sledge hammer...if you disagree fine.
Take the time to listen to a youtube vid.
YORK CARDIOLOGY STROKE.....its 15:56 some interesting stats.
BTW both cardiologists and GP's know next to nothing about natural supl. that in many cases are better than meds. with no side effects.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2018 04:04PM by vanlith.

Quote
Elizabeth
JPeters:

Well, my 1st. degree heart block wasn't in my head, I have a pacemaker because of it. I got an EP instead of the MD that I was seeing and I happened to read his notes on my chart that my 1st. degree heart block was probably due to the beta blocker.
L

I see medication as one possible cause. Was this incompetence on the part of the prescriber ??


"Causes. The most common causes of first-degree heart block are an AV nodal disease, enhanced vagal tone (for example in athletes), myocarditis, acute myocardial infarction (especially acute inferior MI), electrolyte disturbances and medication."

Quote
vanlith
BTW both cardiologists and GP's know next to nothing about natural supl. that in many cases are better than meds. with no side effects.

How do you know? There are virtually never trials directly comparing supplements against anything else. Taking most supplements is a matter of faith, not science.

Well thanks for the charming welcome. Guess I made a mistake posting on here. Some of you need to take a long look at yourselves. Jeez, no wonder you got heart problems. Hey, lesson learned, shit all over me in comments, you're a bunch of wankers and this aint a forum, it's a menagerie

Bye

I don't blame you...i did not come here for battles....i did not come here to get my heart rate up...i came here to share my ex. and help people....i could spend hours typing in testimonials of people who have life changing ex. with supl. and dumb comments from doctors and others on certain supl. but its not worth it on this vitriolic at times forum.
I am right behind you NtG.
Shannon if you read this....if i go to austin in dec. i will contact you a week before as we talked about.....that will be my next appearance here.

Bye



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2018 06:32PM by vanlith.

Vanlith - I share your concern and I'm apologizing for the tone of this thread. Our moderator, Shannon, believes in the value of nutritional supplements and various natural interventions that prove to be far more useful than many meds as useful adjuncts to help with overall health maintenance and prevention.

There are many studies (in the thousands) showing benefits of various nutrients on common ailments that respond very well if not better than drugs without the drug side effects that some have. Also an studies showing why nutritional supplements can help prevent many ailments from developing in the first place.

Doctors freely admit they had only a few weeks learning about nutrition and that's why the movement of Restorative Medicine or Functional Medicine has become an advanced educational opportunity for many progressive, forward thinking physicians who want to understand the fundamental needs of the body as sourced from basic nutrients so they can help more patients.

I have a long, personal history of problems created by doctors not understanding the signs and symptoms of insufficient, critical nutrients that caused me multiple severe, adverse complications and surgeries that could have been avoided with proper education in nutritional biochemistry and understanding the need for specific metabolic test evaluations.

When you do decide to see Dr. Natale in Austin, I know you will have a very positive experience. I've had three Natale ablations, the last two, in Austin. Words cannot describe my thankfulness for the care and successful outcomes I've experienced. I'm sure you will have the same and if and when you do, I hope you post your experience as well.

Kind regards,
Jackie

Vanlith and Ntg,

I did not intend to create an argument. I think there is a place for civil discourse as we rationally discuss diverse options available to us. If one person is comfortable with their line of treatment then that is their choice. This forum is for sharing approaches as they work for us. Afib treatment is not a cookie cutter approach, and if you are comfortable straying from medical recommendations then that is great. We’re all here to learn and find answers that work for us. I’m participating in a clinical study some folks would never consider while some are perfectly comfortable taking a supplement in place of anti-coagulation. We all have our limits. Please consider continued participation here. We may not always agree, but passionate civil disagreement has its place.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2018 07:38PM by AB Page.

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Jackie
There are many studies (in the thousands) showing benefits of various nutrients on common ailments that respond very well if not better than drugs without the drug side effects that some have. Also an studies showing why nutritional supplements can help prevent many ailments from developing in the first place.

There are precious few high-quality studies comparing supplements to drugs. Sure, there may be "thousands" of studies, but the vast majority of them simply look at whether people self-report the supplement to be helpful. There are very few that compare the supplement directly to their drug counterparts that are scientifically rigorous.

I'm not anti-supplement by any means. I've taken a number of them and still take a few, and I don't doubt that many people have found relief in various supplements. But the reality is there isn't a requirement for supplement makers to do such studies and there's no financial gain for them, so they simply don't do them. What I find troublesome is how willing people are to automatically believe that supplements are safer, more effective, and/or have fewer side effects than drugs with absolutely no evidence to support that belief. They're also prone to believe supplements are "all natural" when no independent lab assay or USP certification exists to prove that. If the Chinese are willing to sell baby formula intentionally adulterated with melamine, what makes you think they won't adulterate nattokinase, or taurine, or whatever? There's a big financial motivation for them to do exactly that, and no financial motivation for them to have their products independently verified, so you really shouldn't be surprised when you find out they do it.

I also find it troublesome how willing people are to believe that anticoagulants in particular are super dangerous drugs. They are not. People are prone to believe that uncontrollable bleeding is just one pill away when taking anticoagulants. In the 15 years I spent in EMS, I saw dozens and dozens of ischemic strokes, but I saw only a tiny handful of hemorrhagic strokes, and zero cases of uncontrollable bleeding caused by anticoagulants. My real-world experience matches the data. Ischemic strokes are common, hemorrhagic strokes are rare, and uncontrollable bleeding caused by anticoagulants is even more rare. Anticoagulants are a lot like the fear of flying. Your trip to the airport in a car is far more dangerous than the flight, but try telling that to someone who's afraid of flying. They just can't make themselves believe it.

The take away message is that supplements are not necessarily better, safer, or even comparable to the drug you want to replace. Be skeptical. Look for evidence supporting the claims, and remember that anecdotal reports are usually just made up. The plural of anecdote is not data.

Meanwhile, I'm sorry NtG feels like he/she got a poor reception here, but honestly, nobody has been rude or abusive. Lively disagreement is healthy. Thick skin is healthy too. Chill, folks!

I also take supplements...Magnesium, Taurine, Mk-7, Berberine, Milk-Thistle, some C with Rutin. I guess it's easy to project all kinds of emotions onto posts if they don't agree with your point of view.

Quote
NtG
Well thanks for the charming welcome. Guess I made a mistake posting on here. Some of you need to take a long look at yourselves. Jeez, no wonder you got heart problems. Hey, lesson learned, shit all over me in comments, you're a bunch of wankers and this aint a forum, it's a menagerie

Bye

NtG, AB Page's initial response:

"First, if you are having regular runs of afib, you should be on an anticoagulant. The ugly reality is otherwise you are wide open to having a debilitating stroke"

shows concern for your wellbeing, and is based on sound experience and sound reasoning in addition to compassion.

Lordy!

(What Jackie and Carey say.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2018 11:35AM by mwcf.

Unfortunately, living, dealing with and fixing a-fib requires much research and understanding. Plus, there are a variety of responses/strategies, so it's upon us to keep an open mind, look for information, weigh our options, and move ahead with a clearer understanding of managing a-fib.

Debates on various issue like supplements and drugs are to be expected in a forum like this. It may be confusing to a newcomer, but in time, one becomes much more confident with their own strategy with the knowledge gained on this forum.

I agree with Carey's skeptical supplement post, and I too take a few (Mg, K and Taurine), which do keep the arrhythmias at bay post ablation. The point is - gather information, make a plan, and move on. Then, if one chooses, post here sharing their experiences.

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vanlith
....if i go see Natale rest assured i will be clot free on Xarelto.

Hopefully. I was on Eliquis for the two months the sludge remained. Warfaren seems to work much better for me, and cleaned it out in a week. I needed another TEE prior to an ablation on July 19th, and the cardiologist who performed it voiced skeptism that I wouldn't have clots because I had an angiogram the prior week, noting that I had been in afib since January (which weakens the heart). I had brought up my INR to 2.6, however, so was more confident than he was, and thankfully worked.

[a-fib.com]

65 and Older: 99% Have Microbleeds—So Are Anticoagulants Risky?

Published March 28, 2016.


In a recent study, 99% of subjects aged 65 or older had evidence of microbleeds; and closer examination of the cranial MRI images revealed an increased number of detectable microbleeds (i.e., the closer they looked, the more microbleeds they found).

Microbleeds in the brain are thought to be a precursor of hemorrhagic stroke.


Cerebral microbleeds (CMBs) are small chronic brain hemorrhages of the small vessels of the brain.

If Microbleeds Cause Hemorrhagic Stroke, Should I be on a Blood Thinner?

The fact that almost everyone 65 or older has microbleeds is astonishing and worrisome, particularly if you have A-Fib and have to take anticoagulants. Anticoagulants cause or increase bleeding. That’s how they work.

In plain language, this study indicates that cerebral microbleeds lead to or cause hemorrhagic stroke. It’s not surprising then that some doctors are reluctant to prescribe heavy-duty


All I know is that when I was on Coumadin, I had to quit it because of blood pooling in my fingers and red eyes, then 2 weeks or so later I coughed up blood clots, so these kind of drugs are not benign.

Liz

Apparently the "microbleeds" aren't much of an issue if that is normal for everyone over 65. If it were an issue, no Dr. would prescribe a blood thinner for those over 65.

Liz said: "In plain language, this study indicates that cerebral microbleeds lead to or cause hemorrhagic stroke" which is not what it said.

It said: "Microbleeds in the brain are thought to be a precursor of hemorrhagic stroke." This can be true, but it doesn't say that microbleeds increases the risk of hemorrhagic stroke. Gray hair is know to be a precursor of hemorrhagic stroke as is being over 65 (my own study), but it doesn't increase the risk of stroke in those over 65 and with gray hair.

Quote
Ken
Apparently the "microbleeds" aren't much of an issue if that is normal for everyone over 65. If it were an issue, no Dr. would prescribe a blood thinner for those over 65.

Numbers of both hemorrhagic and ischemic strokes are obviously higher after 65, with ischemic strokes being far greater and the results far more deadly.

conclusion: keep your age <65



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2018 12:22PM by jpeters.

Quote
Elizabeth



All I know is that when I was on Coumadin, I had to quit it because of blood pooling in my fingers and red eyes, then 2 weeks or so later I coughed up blood clots, so these kind of drugs are not benign.

Liz

geez....clearly, warfarin is NOT for you. I have yet to get as much as a bruise, and have been on it several years.

Ken:

I didn't say the following, not my words, it was part of what I took from Steve Ryans

Liz said: "In plain language, this study indicates that cerebral microbleeds lead to or cause hemorrhagic stroke" which is not what it said.

This is why I don't like Steve Ryan:

Quote

In a recent study, 99% of subjects aged 65 or older had evidence of microbleeds;

Oh really? What study? Making statements like that without citing the study is trashy journalism. For all I know it's a flat out lie, or he misunderstood the study, or the study was poor quality.... Who knows? Without citing the study his site is just click bait.

Carey and all… I am not suggesting that afibbers forgo their prescribed medications and I totally understand your resistance, Carey, to natural therapies. This is not at all unusual or unique. I also agree that it’s important for every individual to determine what they want to learn and are willing to do for overall health in the long-term since we all have different influencing factors that affect outcomes both positive and negative.

What I have learned through the advanced training of Functional Medicine practitioners certified by the IFM is that it’s common to find various systemic, fundamental nutritional imbalances and insufficiencies that can contribute to or underlie many of the initiators of many medical problems; and, once identified by appropriate, specialized testing, these can often be managed successfully and safely without the use of pharmaceutical chemical compounds.

As an example, for afibbers or the general population who have not (yet) been prescribed anticoagulants, there are many specific lab tests available to evaluate contributors or influences for clot risk such as elevated markers of C-reactive protein, Interleukin 6, Homocysteine, Fibrinogen, Hemoglobin A1C, etc… as described in several previous posts on the topic concerning the underlying causes of ‘thick, sticky blood and risk of clots’. A prime risk example is silent inflammation. When these inflammatory markers test in the ‘risk range,’ why not manage them to attain normalcy with natural therapies and circumvent the clot risk? A plus is also then avoiding the expensive Rx meds (and often the undesirable side effects as well.)

Remember that even though a patient is taking for example, Eliquis, and is reasonably guaranteed that their blood will not form adverse clots, if they still have those underlying factors that promote systemic inflammation, as an example, that process is still ongoing in spite of the Eliquis and that inflammation can eventually be damaging to cells, tissues and organs throughout the body…so is not just a clot concern.

Smart medicine evaluates underlying causes and takes steps to reverse those rather than just mask or over-ride symptoms or the real core issues.

As for the Chinese impurities in baby formula, that has extended to the prescription medicine industry -- as noted by recent recall of Valsartan because it contains a carcinogen. Where was the US quality control inspection there? The reputable professional-grade supplement companies do go the extra mile to evaluate raw materials and choose appropriate, safe sources. They are under high scrutiny because of the anti- ‘natural’ approach and with good reason. There are charlatans in every endeavor including offshore Chinese materials.

As for studies on natural substances, I was recently tracking human studies for efficacy of curcumin (well-known for its therapeutic properties including anti-inflammatory) and, as an example, this one is a meta analysis in humans on the efficacy to lower Hemoglobin A1C – one of the factors for thick, sticky blood and clot risk. The count was over 2300 abstracts with over 1500 of those focusing on curcumin’s potential therapeutic value in the treatment of Oxidative Stress, Inflammation, and DNA..


Pharmacol Res. 2018 Feb;128:137-144. doi: 10.1016/j.phrs.2017.09.010. Epub 2017 Sep 18.
PMID: 28928074

Curcumin or combined curcuminoids are effective in lowering the fasting blood glucose concentrations of individuals with dysglycemia: Systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials.

Abstract
Curcuminoids have received considerable attention as therapeutical adjuvants in the treatment of dysglycemia. The purpose of this meta-analysis was to evaluate whether the supplementation of turmeric extract, curcuminoids and/or isolated curcumin is more effective than placebo in decreasing fasting blood glucose (FBG) in adults. MEDLINE, CENTRAL, ScienceDirect and gray literature databases were searched. Randomized controlled trials with the following criteria were included: (1) studied individuals older than 18 years, supplemented with curcumin, curcuminoids and/or turmeric extract (2) had a follow-up ≥4 weeks (3) used a placebo group. Titles and abstracts were screened and potentially eligible articles were retrieved. The primary outcome was FBG. The secondary outcomes were HbA1c and HOMA-IR. Eleven studies were included. In the overall analysis, turmeric, curcuminoids and curcumin supplementation led to a decrease in FBG (-8.88, 95% CI: [-5.04 to -2.72] mg/dL, p = 0.005). Supplementation of curcuminoids and/or curcumin decreased the concentrations of HbA1c (-0.54, 95% CI: [-1.09 to -0.002] %, p = 0.049) but were not able to decrease HOMA-IR (-1.26, 95% CI: [-3.71 to -1.19], p = 0.31). Sensitivity analyses revealed that baseline FBG was an important covariate. Heterogeneity was high in the overall analyses and there was evidence of publication bias. Supplementation of isolated curcumin or combined curcuminoids were both effective in lowering the FBG concentrations of individuals with some degree of dysglycemia, but not in non-diabetic individuals. Isolated curcumin lead to significant decreases of the HbA1c compared to placebo.

Here’s another:

Pharmacol Res. 2016 Sep;111:394-404. doi: 10.1016/j.phrs.2016.07.004. Epub 2016 Jul 5.
PMID: 27392742

Effect of curcumin on circulating interleukin-6 concentrations: A systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials.

Abstract
The aim of this meta-analysis was to evaluate the efficacy of curcuminoids supplementation on circulating concentrations of IL-6 in randomized controlled trials (RCTs). The search included PubMed-Medline, Scopus, Web of Science and Google Scholar databases by up to November 01, 2015, to identify RCTs investigating the impact of curcuminoids on circulating IL-6 concentrations. Nine RCTs comprising 10 treatment arms were found to be eligible for the meta-analysis. There was a significant reduction of circulating IL-6 concentrations following curcuminoids supplementation (WMD: -0.60pg/mL, 95% CI: -1.06, -0.14, p=0.011). Meta-regression did not suggest any significant association between the circulating IL-6 lowering effects of curcuminoids with either dose or duration of treatment. There was a significant association between the IL-6-lowering activity of curcumin and baseline IL-6 concentration (slope: -0.51; 95% CI: -0.80, -0.23; p=0.005). This meta-analysis of RCTs suggested a significant effect of curcumin in lowering circulating IL-6 concentrations. This effect appears to be more evident in patients with higher degrees of systemic inflammation.


I certainly agree with those who say we should have an open mind about treatment options. You only have to be injured once to understand the value of evaluating all options available.

As I have often reminded our forum readers when talking about health awareness: Knowledge is power. Be sure you examine all sides of the potentials because facts are often obfuscated and overwhelmed by negative press due to lack of receptiveness to the factual reality.

Be well,
Jackie


PS to jpeters…. Hans Larsen’s quote on the Medicine from Hell was about Digoxin
[afibbers.org]

I really saw nothing wrong or argumentative from any of the comments. I think that there is a misunderstanding of the passion of this site. Many here have dealt with this for a long time. Some as long as 30 years or better. So there is a wealth of experience and concern for those who are new to it and don’t fully understand the nuances of their newly diagnosed condition.

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Jackie


PS to jpeters…. Hans Larsen’s quote on the Medicine from Hell was about Digoxin
[afibbers.org]

I took that plus a beta blocker after my initial diagnosis and hospital stay. It worked very well without any side effects in restoring my heart. We discontinued it after I was cardioverted back into rhythm for a year. Note that Digoxin is a "natural" drug extracted from the leaves of a plant called digitalis lanata.

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jpeters
Note that Digoxin is a "natural" drug extracted from the leaves of a plant called digitalis lanata.

Exactly. I wish there was a "like" button on this site.

Jpeters Geez: What we all have said on this site everybody is different, yet the doctors want us all on similar meds, just doesn't work that way as you pointed out.

liz



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2018 10:33PM by Elizabeth.

Just to point out to any newcomers here that naturally-derived digoxin is - IMHO (and experience) at least - absolutely a total NO-NO for vagal AF.

Digoxin was the very first drug I was ever put on. Was prescribed by cardiologist #1 in my 20's.

Doctor half listened to what I was saying. Had his script pad out not even 2 minutes into our conversation. Handed it to me then left.

Took it for about a week. Made me feel like crap and seemed to making my episodes worse. Back in those days my affib was very sporadic in nature and the digoxin seemed to be making it more regular.

I headed to OC Maryland soon after to participate in a cycling event and arrived a few days early. One night i was laying there with my heart out of rhythm and decided to call my pharmacist friend to see if there would be any issues with just stopping it. He said not and I quit.

Felt fine for the ride, my affib went back to it's normal routine of being very infrequent and I never saw that cardiologist again.

As someone stated on another thread we are all different and what works for one probably won't work for another. The beer and whine remedy mentioned supprises me. Beer and whine (alcohol) are triggers for me.

Some feedback on Digoxin:

"In patients with AF taking digoxin, the risk of death was independently related to serum digoxin concentration and was highest in patients with concentrations ≥1.2 ng/ml. Initiating digoxin was independently associated with higher mortality in patients with AF, regardless of heart failure."

JACC Artticle on Digoxin

Digoxin and risk of death in adults with atrial fibrillation: the ATRIA-CVRN study.
Circ Arrhythm Electrophysiol. 2015 Feb;8(1):49-58. doi: 10.1161/CIRCEP.114.002292. Epub 2014 Nov 20.


CONCLUSIONS:

In adults with atrial fibrillation, digoxin use was independently associated with higher risks of death and hospitalization. Given other available rate control options, digoxin should be used with caution in the management of atrial fibrillation.

© 2014 American Heart Association, Inc.[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Hello,

I am new to this forum. I have been reading different threads here for the last few weeks and have received some valuable insights. I am a 60-year-old man 6 foot five 220 pounds and have always been extremely athletic throughout my life. I was a Competitive distance runner throughout high school, college and through my 20s and 30s.

My adventure began on March 5 of this year when I was playing basketball with a group of guys and right in the middle of the game I became lightheaded and did a completely unconscious face plant. Miraculously I did no damage to my head or face. My son was there and told me later he thought I was dying. By the time the ambulance got there I was in full tachycardia with my pulse being 300 where it stayed for the next 20 minutes… 30 minutes in total. At my local hospital in Joliet they did all of the usual procedures and tests and found nothing wrong with my heart. In fact I was told I have the arteries of a 30-year-old. I was told by the lead cardiologist there that my problem was electrical and I would need to have a heart MRI. He said I would need to go to Chicago, either Northwestern or Loyola for the MRI. I asked him which had the better EP facility and he told me that if he could not go personally to the Cleveland clinic he would go to Loyola over any other place. He said Loyola is led by world renowned Dr David Wilbur and his team of five excellent EP’s that truly work as a team.

So March 6 an ambulance took me to Loyola. They did not really know exactly what had happened to me because they only had The single EKG lead from the paramedic that showed the problem originating from the left ventricle. They did the MRI and an EP study and found my heart structurally sound and strong. They tried to induce my heart back into tachycardia by raising it to 200 bpm while electrically stimulating it, but it would not happen. Since they did not really know for certain what caused that episode they did not want to send me home without some serious protection, they put in an ICD. I was told that if my heart wasn’t as strong as it is I would have never survived that tachycardia(I am kind of surprised my brain did without any damage).

Three weeks later I was at our local YMCA working out next to my wife and monitoring my heart rate that was staying in the 125 to 130 range when all of a sudden I got really lightheaded so I stopped the machine and suddenly my ICD went off. That 800 V is quite shocking when you’re not expecting it! But then 10 seconds later it zapped me again. And I realized I better sit down quickly in case I pass out. I checked my pulse and it was back down to 80.

The next morning I went to Loyola and they looked at the print out from my ICD and said they were actually quite encouraged because it showed a “simple” afib and not something more rare and complicated. It showed that my heart rate went from 130 to 240 in three to 4 seconds. My ICD is set to go off at 214. I was told that I was in afib while I was working out which then converted to tachycardia and they suspected that was what originally happened when I was playing basketball. So now the discussion turned to having an ablation which I had already done some reading on so I agreed to have it done.

On May 5th I had the ablation and it went very well though it took five hours, about two hours longer than what the doctor thought it would take due to some minor complications.Since then I have only had a few mild afib occurrences up until two weeks ago. It was a Saturday and I had just finished running a farmers market and was feeling really good however when I got home the afib episode started and just continued to get worse all the way up until late Sunday night. I wanted to have my wife drive me to Loyola which is about a 45 minute drive but I couldn’t even get off the couch so we had to call an ambulance to go to the local Joliet hospital. Never again! They stuck me in the emergency room in a wheelchair with 200 other people there that had runny noses and sore throats and the like(Even my ER nurse said it was ridiculous because anyone without health insurance just comes to the emergency room no matter how minor because they have to be treated).It took them 45 minutes to get me to a room to do an EKG while sitting in the wheelchair. I could not even sit still For them to do the EKG so they finally wheeled me back to a triage room where I could lay down on the bed to do the EKG. It showed my heart was going between afib and aflutter with a pulse ranging from 130 to 180. After about six hours they moved me to a room where I stayed until Tuesday afternoon when they finally did a cardioversion.That went without any problems and I was released an hour later to go see my cardiologist at Loyola. He told me if that happens again do whatever I can to get up to Loyola and someone on his team would be able to cardiovert me right away so I can go home immediately. So if that happens again I now know to have my sons put me in my vehicle and just drive me to Loyola.

My EP told me I may have to have a touchup ablation this fall. As far as medications I am only taking Eliquis. I tried the Fleckenide and chewing the propafenone and letting it disolve under my tongue with no results, except for the lethargy and brain fog they caused. Now,15 days later I feel really good with no afib or aflutter that I know of other than an occasional palpitation.

As a side-note I am one of those that has my afib irritate my Vagus nerve and I have a lot of belching while I am in afib. I have also given up all alcohol and caffeine. It is encouraging to read many of your stories as they do give perspective and hope that this does not have to be a lifelong problem.

All sounds to me that it is a matter of getting fundamentals right and in the right balance - first (BMI, visceral fat, anti-inflammatory markers, physical activity) All this is achieved with diet and life style.
Would be nice if one didn't have to make changes to what we are accustomed to by just taking drugs.
If that doesn't help we take supplements, meds and or have an ablation(s)? Whatever brings results.

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Joe

If that doesn't help we take supplements, meds and or have an ablation(s)? Whatever brings results.

Healthy lifestyle is always basic, and best pursued BEFORE problems arise. In the case of AFIB, it's probably a good idea to find a great EP and take their suggestions. Age and genetics can play a factor.

jepters said:

Healthy lifestyle is always basic, and best pursued BEFORE problems arise. In the case of AFIB, it's probably a good idea to find a great EP and take their suggestions. Age and genetics can play a factor.

More to it than that, I have a Holistic doc. who has had and does have a very healthy lifestyle, yet he has gotten an episode of AF. It is genetics plain and simple, I know people that break all the good health rules and do not have AF. AF is like cancer very hard to find a cure, only slash and burn.