Aspirin

Aspirin, it still works



[www.msn.com]

Quote
Elizabeth
Aspirin, it still works



[www.msn.com]

“Second, clinical trials of aspirin have already been performed in patients with Alzheimer’s disease. The drug had no beneficial effects on outcome measures and was associated with an increased risk of gastrointestinal hemorrhage.”

Doesn't seem to work for preventing strokes, either

Raise cholesterol levels to where they should be instead of producing unnatural drug induced low levels, and toss the aspirin out the window.

Quote
hwkmn05
Raise cholesterol levels to where they should be instead of producing unnatural drug induced low levels, and toss the aspirin out the window.

Huh? How did cholesterol come into this?

There's never been any question that aspirin works -- as an antiplatelet drug. If you've got an artificial device in contact with blood flow, such as stents, artificial valves, LAA occlusion devices, etc, or if you're prone to DVTs or have certain types of cancer, aspirin is an absolutely essential drug.

Quote
jpeters

Aspirin, it still works


“Second, clinical trials of aspirin have already been performed in patients with Alzheimer’s disease. The drug had no beneficial effects on outcome measures and was associated with an increased risk of gastrointestinal hemorrhage.”

Doesn't seem to work for preventing strokes, either

Then why do doctors recommend aspirin after a person has a heart attack? My mother was on Coumadin and had bleeding from her gastrointestinal. The truth is most drugs suck and have side effects, so I guess we pick our poison.

liz

Quote
Elizabeth



Then why do doctors recommend aspirin after a person has a heart attack? My mother was on Coumadin and had bleeding from her gastrointestinal. The truth is most drugs suck and have side effects, so I guess we pick our poison.

liz

At least for afib it didn't appear to decrease strokes, according to a presentation I attended at Alta Bates Hospital. That wouldn't stop doctors from recommending it, though.

Where are your clinical trials on Alzheimers and aspirin?

July 2 (UPI) -- Daily low doses of aspirin may help reduce the effects of Alzheimer's disease and protect memory, according to a new study.

Researchers at Rush University Medical Center showed that aspirin decreases plaques in the brain that are leading mechanisms in dementia and memory loss. The team published results of their study in the July issue of The Journal of Neuroscience.

l

Quote
Elizabeth
Where are your clinical trials on Alzheimers and aspirin?


l

The quote came out of the article you posted. I didn't bother to check the references.

Aspirin is not a benign medication and everyone should be aware of the risks involved in its use – especially long term.
While it can provide relief from pain and certainly, if one thinks they may be having a stroke, some advocate for taking aspirin immediately. However, it’s important to be aware of the many studies indicating the risks of aspirin usage.

Here are a few study results from my files on the risks and adverse effects on this topic.


Jackie

Aspirin causes significant gastroduodenal damage even at the low doses used for cardiovascular protection.
Pubmed Data : Curr Med Res Opin. 2009 Nov;25(11):2785-93.
PMID: 19788350
Study Type : Human Study

Aspirin increases mortality in diabetic patients without cardiovascular disease.
Pubmed Data : Pharmacoepidemiol Drug Saf. 2009 Dec;18(12):1143-9.
PMID: 19672841
Study Type : Human Study

Long-term, low-dose aspirin treatment has little effect on the prevention of venous thromboembolism in initially healthy women.
Pubmed Data : Ann Intern Med. 2007 Oct 16;147(8):525-33.
PMID: 17938390
Study Type : Meta Analysis

In healthy individuals using aspirin 80% experience small bowel mucosal injury.
Abstract Title: Incidence of small bowel injury induced by low-dose aspirin: a crossover study using capsule endoscopy in healthy volunteers.
Abstract Source: Digestion. 2009;79(1):44-51. Epub 2009 Feb 26.
PMID: 19246922
Study Type : Human Study


Aspirin adversely effects cerebral blood flow in vivo, which may explain why research has shown it may increase the risk of ischemic stroke.
Pubmed Data : Neurol Res. 1999 Jul;21(5):488-90.
PMID: 10439430
Study Type : Human Study
Additional Links Diseases : Brain Ischemia, Cerebral Ischemia, Stroke
Problem Substances : Aspirin

Aspirin with or without chronic oral anticoagulant treatment does not reduce mortality or reinfarction, reduces stroke, but is associated with significantly more major bleeding.
Abstract Title:
Long-term effect of chronic oral anticoagulation with warfarin after acute myocardial infarction.
Abstract Source:
Am J Med. 2010 Mar;123(3):250-8.
PMID: 20193834
Study Type : Human Study

Aspirin does not prevent cardiovascular events in diabetes mellitus.
Pubmed Data : Expert Opin Pharmacother. 2010 Jun;11(9):1459-66.
PMID: 20429671
Study Type : Meta Analysis

Patients taking aspirin before an acute coronary syndrome (ACS) are at higher risk of recurrent heart attack.
Pubmed Data : J Am Coll Cardiol. 2010 Oct 19;56(17):1376-85.
PMID: 20946994
Study Type : Meta Analysis

Regular use of aspirin, NSAIDs, or acetaminophen increases the risk of hearing loss in men,
and the impact is larger on younger individuals.
Pubmed Data : Am J Med. 2010 Mar;123(3):231-7.
PMID: 20193831
Study Type : Meta Analysis

Aspirin is a risk factor for colonic diverticular bleeding
Korean J Gastroenterol. 2012 Dec 25 ;60(6):349-54.
PMID: 23242017
Study Type : Human Study


Aspirin treatment reduces ischemic strokes while increasing hemorrhagic stroke
Antiplatelet treatment in ischemic stroke treatment.
Curr Top Med Chem. 2009;9(14):1298-316.
PMID: 19849660
Study Type : Human Study

Aspirin use was associated with increased risks of ischemic stroke in women and hemorrhagic stroke overall in the elderly.
Title: Aspirin use and incident stroke in the cardiovascular health study. CHS Collaborative Research Group.
Stroke. 1998 May;29(5):887-94.
PMID: 9596230
Study Type : Human Study

Aspirin use was not found to lower the risk of heart attack or death from cardiovascular causes.
Abstract Title: A randomized trial of low-dose aspirin in the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease in women.
Abstract Source:
N Engl J Med. 2005 Mar 31;352(13):1293-304. Epub 2005 Mar 7.
PMID: 15753114
Study Type : Human StudyI

In a population-based cohort, aspirin use was significantly associated with an increased risk of major gastrointestinal or cerebral bleeding episodes.
Abstract Title: Association of aspirin use with major bleeding in patients with and without diabetes.
Abstract Source: JAMA. 2012 Jun 6 ;307(21):2286-94.
PMID: 22706834.1
Study Type : Human Study

Abstract Title: Clinical features of gastroduodenal ulcer in Japanese patients taking low-dose aspirin.
Abstract Source: Dig Dis Sci. 2009 Nov 20. Epub 2009 Nov 20.
PMID: 19936921
Study Type : Human Study


Short-term administration of low-dose aspirin is associated with small bowel injuries and blood flow.
Abstract Title: Evaluation of small bowel blood flow in healthy subjects receiving low-dose aspirin.
Abstract Source: World J Gastroenterol. 2011 Jan 14 ;17(2):226-30.
PMID: 21245996
Study Type: Human Study


The risks of aspirin therapy may outweigh the benefits for primary prevention of cardiovascular disease.
Abstract Title: Aspirin for primary prevention of cardiovascular disease?
Abstract Source: Evid Based Med. 2010 Feb;15(1):31-3.
PMID: 20176886
Study Type: Human Study

The active ingredient in aspirin is sodium salicyclate which induces degeneration of cochlea spiral ganglion neurons. This may explain why aspirin use has been associated with Reye's syndrome, tinnitus and hearing loss.
Abstract Title: Salicylate-induced degeneration of cochlea spiral ganglion neurons-apoptosis signaling.
Abstract Source: Neuroscience. 2010 Jun 16;168(1):288-99. Epub 2010 Mar 15.
PMID: 20298761
Study Type : In Vitro Study

Aspirin use is associated with a higher rate of vitamin B12 deficiency in patients hospitalized with cardiovascular disease.
Abstract Title: Association of aspirin use with vitamin B12 deficiency (results of the BACH study).
Abstract Source: Am J Cardiol. 2004 Oct 1;94(7):975-7.
PMID: 15464695
Study Type: Human Study

Carey - The mentioning of raising cholesterol undoubtedly came from the findings that those with higher cholesterol and aging... tend not to have the problems with Alzheimer's dementia that can be common with very low cholesterol levels.
The advocates for higher levels of the good cholesterol, HDL, have been indicating for several years now why 'cholesterol is not the enemy' but the good kind is essential for brain health... so rather than using the aspirin with its many other negative effects, cholesterol along with healthy fats in the diet are brain sparing.

Jackie

Quote
Jackie
While it can provide relief from pain and certainly, if one thinks they may be having a stroke, some advocate for taking aspirin immediately. However, it’s important to be aware of the many studies indicating the risks of aspirin usage.

I don't know who advocates that but unless you have your own home CT scanner and can differentiate between an embolic and hemorrhagic stroke, taking an aspirin for a suspected stroke is a really bad idea. It won't do anything for an embolic stroke and may very well seal your fate for a hemorrhagic stroke. However, what is recommended and is standard practice in EMS and ERs is taking an aspirin immediately in response to a suspected heart attack.

No question that aspirin has risks and shouldn't be used for routine pain/fever relief (though for some arthritis sufferers it's necessary). These days aspirin is used almost solely for its antiplatelet properties, as I mentioned a few posts back. It has its place, but not as a household pain/fever reducer, and definitely not for stroke prevention with afib.

Quote
Jackie
Carey - The mentioning of raising cholesterol undoubtedly came from the findings that those with higher cholesterol and aging... tend not to have the problems with Alzheimer's dementia that can be common with very low cholesterol levels.
The advocates for higher levels of the good cholesterol, HDL, have been indicating for several years now why 'cholesterol is not the enemy' but the good kind is essential for brain health... so rather than using the aspirin with its many other negative effects, cholesterol along with healthy fats in the diet are brain sparing.

Oh, okay, thanks. A bit of a leap there in subject material. I've long been convinced that the war on fats is the biggest man-made public health disaster of the 20th century.

Patients taking aspirin before and after CABG surgery show reduced mortality risk. This is a current study, jackies appear to be older. Most meds can have problems even Eliquis. Stopping Coumadin caused me to have blood clots.


[www.news-medical.net]

liz

Quote
Carey

I've long been convinced that the war on fats is the biggest man-made public health disaster of the 20th century.

"Cholesterol lowering drugs are BIG business. The pharmaceutical industry earns billions of dollars every year, and they are very clever to keep the big cholesterol myth alive."

"LDL transports cholesterol from the liver to the body. If your LDL is to low, you may be more vulnerable to infections, cancer and other diseases. Several studies around the world show that people with low LDL or low total cholesterol have higher mortality than people with normal or high cholesterol."

"This means eggs, butter, full-fat dairy products, nuts, coconut oil and meat have now been classified as *safe* and have been officially removed from the _nutrients of concern_ list."

[www.quora.com]
[www.action-inter.net]

from Chris Kresser: [chriskresser.com]

Natural Alternatives:

Pycnogenol, "which is also referred to as pine bark extract, French maritime pine bark extract, at a dose of about 100 mg a day. It’s been shown to reduce platelet aggregation as effectively as aspirin without increasing the risk of bleeding, and it actually even has a prolonged action time, so it works over a longer period of time than aspirin does. You don’t have to take as much or take it as frequently."

policosanol. "The dose would be 20 mg per day, and studies have shown that that’s as effective as 100 mg of aspirin as a platelet aggregation inhibitor in terms of reducing the risk of thromboembolism. This was from a randomized clinical trial, and there are a few trials supporting policosanol for this use."


cod liver oil or fish oil, Omega 3 from fish (salmon, etc)
dark chocolate,herbs

Wonder what increasing the Zeta potential does for platelet stickiness? It is supposed to separate red blood cells according to Dr Sinatra's observation under the microscope.

Low Cholesterol contributes to dementia. Aspirin can easily be replaced by several supplements, but hey to each his own.

Quote
hwkmn05
Aspirin can easily be replaced by several supplements, but hey to each his own.

What makes supplements better than aspirin? Aspirin is arguably every bit as "natural" as any "supplement," and it has very well known properties. It's also not counterfeited, nor contaminated with heavy metals and pesticides Chinese factories don't bother screening for in supplements.

Quote
Carey
. It's also not counterfeited, nor contaminated with heavy metals and pesticides Chinese factories don't bother screening for in supplements.

Now Foods
3997 Reviews
Now Foods Reviews
4.7 (out of 5)

"Founded in 1968, Now Foods is one of the country's most respected names in healthy living supplements. Located in Bloomingdale, Illinois, Now's state-of-the art, 209,000 square-foot facility manufactures more than 900 unique items, all priced affordably"

Just bought some policosanol

Quote
Carey
and it has very well known properties

as listed above....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2018 04:22PM by jpeters.

Quote
jpeters
"Founded in 1968, Now Foods is one of the country's most respected names in healthy living supplements. Located in Bloomingdale, Illinois, Now's state-of-the art, 209,000 square-foot facility manufactures more than 900 unique items, all priced affordably"

Just bought some policosanol

Just because it's manufactured in the US doesn't mean it's any better. Supplements don't have to meet the same dosage and purity standards that drugs do. Supplements are notorious for being counterfeited, contaminated and of wildly varying strengths.

And that still doesn't answer my primary question of what makes supplements better than aspirin.

Carey, you can count on pharm to be pure and thinking of you.

" In 2014 Bayer bought MSD's consumer business, with brands such as Claritin, Coppertone and Dr. Scholl's. Its BayerCropscience business develops genetically modified crops and pesticides."

"Bayer was founded in Barmen in 1863. It was part of IG Farben, the world's largest chemical and pharmaceutical company, from 1925 to 1952, and became an independent company again after IG Farben was broken up by the Allies after World War II due to its collaboration with the Nazi regime."


Acquisition of Monsanto:
" March 21, 2018, the deal was approved by the European Union,[66][67] and it was approved in the United States on May 29, 2018.[68] The sale closed on June 7, 2018;[69] the Monsanto brand is discontinued, and all of its products are marketed under the Bayer name."

[en.wikipedia.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2018 08:45PM by jpeters.

Quote
jpeters
Carey, you can count on pharm to be pure and thinking of you.

I expect nothing of the sort. I expect them to chase profits at all costs, including destroying lives if necessary. That's why the FDA and similar regulatory bodies exist in other countries.

What I expect is drug manufacturers to meet FDA manufacturing requirements, and the fact is that supplement manufacturers don't have to. You can easily find numerous examples of contaminated, counterfeited, mislabeled, and inaccurate dosing among supplements. You can't find the same among drugs.

I repeat my primary question a third time: What makes supplements better than aspirin?

You can easily find numerous examples of contaminated, counterfeited, mislabeled, and inaccurate dosing among supplements.


How do we find these examples? It would be a good idea if someone would advise us which to avoid.
Maybe The Vitamin Shop could make recommendations.

Quote
Carey



What I expect is drug manufacturers to meet FDA manufacturing requirements
I repeat my primary question a third time: What makes supplements better than aspirin?

[www.pbs.org]
“The virginity was lost in ’92,” said Dr. Jerry Avorn, a professor at Harvard Medical School. “Once you have that paying relationship, it creates a dynamic that’s not a healthy one.”

The side affects of aspirin are well documented, and have already been posted. You can do your own research regarding studies that support alternatives. Personally, I'd probably opt for some combination until I was absolutely sure. Here's one:

"Policosanol blunts Platelet Aggregation better than does Aspirin"

[heartfixer.com]


A frequent complaint I hear, is that generics are constantly changing their formula, so you can't get what used to work for you. $$$$$



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 04:42AM by jpeters.

Sorry, but one guy's quote and one study vs. 2000+ years of real world experience and a couple hundred years of scientific investigation doesn't do much for me. Aspirin was known to the ancient Egyptians, Hippocrates wrote about it, it's been known and used for thousands of years, but somehow now it's an evil drug? There are few drugs that mankind knows more about than aspirin. And the notion that Big Pharma is making big money off aspirin, or changing its formula, is just not realistic.

Carey, getting a little off topic here. If you're getting a watchman, and you are told to take aspirin, that's what you take.
Okay? If I want to try to improve the outcome after looking at some studies by combining with a supplement, I'd be interested.

Quote
Carey

Aspirin can easily be replaced by several supplements, but hey to each his own.

What makes supplements better than aspirin? Aspirin is arguably every bit as "natural" as any "supplement," and it has very well known properties. It's also not counterfeited, nor contaminated with heavy metals and pesticides Chinese factories don't bother screening for in supplements.

I could say Digitalis is natural also, but that flower can stop my heart.
H2O is a good start and Mag can possibly provide the same relief. Dont just blame the Asian crowd, plenty of that state side too.
I get most of my supplements from foods, but of course, thats another issue, if there is any food left in our foods. I guess Im puzzled by the aspirin debate here. I can believe the ER offering to heart attack patients, but does a standing dose really provide any appreciable benefit for afib or stroke risk?

Quote
hwkmn05
debate here. I can believe the ER offering to heart attack patients, but does a standing dose really provide any appreciable benefit for afib or stroke risk?

No, it doesn't. It has its uses, but stroke prevention in afib isn't one of them. I don't think anyone said otherwise. It simply became the example of the drugs vs. supplements debate above.

Quote
Carey
It simply became the example of the drugs vs. supplements debate above.

Supplement:

"something that completes or enhances something else when added to it."

With all these modern wonderful meds, why are we bothering with cheap 2000 yr old salicylates?

Quote
hwkmn05
With all these modern wonderful meds, why are we bothering with cheap 2000 yr old salicylates?

Many of these "modern wonderful meds have caused lots of problems for people, you can read about different drug reactions right on this site. So If a drug has lasted many years there must be something good about it, some drugs have been derived from plants which were used for centuries by the natives.

Quote
Elizabeth

Many of these "modern wonderful meds have caused lots of problems for people

Judging from their breakouts this week, no problems for shareholders anyway.

I think that medicine truly derived from plants or flowers would be substantially different than ones synthetically manufactured in the test tubes.

Quote
hwkmn05
I think that medicine truly derived from plants or flowers would be substantially different than ones synthetically manufactured in the test tubes.

What makes you think that?

Quote
Carey

I think that medicine truly derived from plants or flowers would be substantially different than ones synthetically manufactured in the test tubes.

What makes you think that?

Gosh Carey, I dont know, maybe due to the fact that meds are responsible for over 100,000 deaths in hospitals yearly? Dont mean to be contentious here, but I would just be guessing that chewing on willow bark tho not convenient, would be different than chewing on an aspirin.

Quote
hwkmn05
Gosh Carey, I dont know, maybe due to the fact that meds are responsible for over 100,000 deaths in hospitals yearly? Dont mean to be contentious here, but I would just be guessing that chewing on willow bark tho not convenient, would be different than chewing on an aspirin.

The only difference between taking an aspirin and chewing willow bark would be predictability of the dosage. I know how to avoid overdosing on aspirin but I don't know how to avoid overdosing on willow bark. I also don't know why you think that chemicals extracted from plants are safer than chemicals extracted from other sources. The plant kingdom produces some impressively toxic chemicals. And above all, since supplements aren't required to meet purity standards, I don't know how to avoid unscrupulous manufacturers who produce supplements tainted with heavy metals and other toxins. It's not like there's a shortage of examples of that.

The whole notion that "natural" supplements are safer than medications in general is a fallacy.

The whole notion that "natural" supplements are safer than medications in general is a fallacy.


Ho, ho, it would be rare if someone died from supplements, but there are many that die from drugs, it even has happened with Eliquis, one of your favorites.

Liz



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2018 06:13PM by Elizabeth.

Quote
Elizabeth
Ho, ho, it would be rare if someone died from supplements, but there are many that die from drugs, it even has happened with Eliquis, one of your favorites.
/quote]

I don't have any favorites and you just demonstrated the fallacy I'm talking about with the logic above.

Anyone taking Valsartan?

Carey - the "notion" isn't a fallacy...there is factual evidence in the literature confirming many drugs have far more safety issues than similar natural compounds.

hwkmn05 - Here's a confirmation of the efficacy and safety of white willow bark vs aspirin. If you do a search on the risks of taking aspirin - long term - versus Salix alba, you'll find an abundance of reports on the downside of aspirin - especially the GI damage risk - example...

CONCLUSION:
Data suggest that ASA causes significant gastroduodenal damage even at the low doses used for cardiovascular protection. These effects (both systemic and possibly local) may be pharmacodynamically distinct from the gastroduodenal toxicity seen with NSAIDs. Studies are required to establish strategies for improving the tolerability of low-dose ASA, allowing patients to continue to benefit from the cardiovascular protection associated with such therapy.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

versus:

Phytother Res. 2015 Aug;29(8):1112-6. doi: 10.1002/ptr.5377. Epub 2015 May 22.
Efficacy and Safety of White Willow Bark (Salix alba) Extracts.
Shara M1, Stohs SJ2.

Abstract

Willow bark extract has been used for thousands of years as an anti-inflammatory, antipyretic, and analgesic. In spite of its long history of use, relatively few human and animal studies have been published that confirm anecdotal observations. A small number of clinical studies have been conducted that support the use of willow bark extracts in chronic lower back and joint pain and osteoarthritis. Willow bark extracts also are widely used in sports performance and weight loss products presumably because of anti-inflammatory and analgesic activities, although no human studies have been published that specifically and directly document beneficial effects. In recent years, various in vitro and animal studies have demonstrated that the anti-inflammatory activity of willow bark extract is associated with down regulation of the inflammatory mediators tumor necrosis factor-α and nuclear factor-kappa B. Although willow bark extracts are generally standardized to salicin, other ingredients in the extracts including other salicylates as well as polyphenols, and flavonoids may also play prominent roles in the therapeutic actions. Adverse effects appear to be minimal as compared to non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs including aspirin. The primary cause for concern may relate to allergic reactions in salicylate-sensitive individuals.
PMID: 25997859
DOI: 10.1002/ptr.5377


Jackie

Quote
Jackie
Carey - the "notion" isn't a fallacy...there is factual evidence in the literature confirming many drugs have far more safety issues than similar natural compounds.

The fallacy is the sweeping generalizations. If you say drugs are safer than supplements that's a nonsensical statement. If you say supplements are safer than drugs that's also a nonsensical statement. You can't compare thousands of compounds as a group. Name a specific drug and name a specific supplement and then we can compare them rationally, but making sweeping statements about them just makes no sense whatsoever and yields no true statements. Even declaring supplements as "natural" is usually misleading and false. You do realize that a large percentage of drugs are made from natural substances, right? And you also realize that many supposedly natural supplements are concocted in test tubes, right?

And finally, of course some drugs have more safety issues than some supplements. But when we discuss safety we can't discuss it without also discussing efficacy, and that's usually why some drugs have more safety issues. The fact is, there are thousands of drugs, and millions of people who are alive solely because of one or more of them and there are no comparable "natural" supplements that can replace them. This whole mentality of "drugs are bad, supplements are good" is in fact a logical fallacy and it serves no useful purpose in helping people decide what to do.

Carey - I don't refute that drugs can be lifesavers. And certainly, not all drugs are bad. But a good many have side effects that compound the issue and the problem is that many drugs are prescribed without looking for an underlying nutritional deficiency that may be contributing to the symptoms. That's a major problem and a big gap in a thorough diagnostic process that involves metabolic profile testing to rule out nutritional deficiencies.

When that happens, the underlying problem may not be resolved. I have first-hand experience with that on several very significant issues. This is one:

Personal Example #1
Muscle pain and weakness. Rheumatologist assessment and diagnosis of Fibromyalgia.
Prescription for various Rx drugs to mask the pain.
Result: no improvement after several other Rx drug options are also tried.
Seek help from a Functional Medicine MD who orders a Vitamin D test based on symptoms.
Result... level is 18 when optimal should be at least 60-70, if not higher.
Prescribe natural vitamin D supplement... in incremental doses and testing periodically.
Result: Elimination of "fibromyalgia" pain plus other health benefits including superior immune system resistance to colds and flu... only 2 occurrences in over 25 years.
Economical, too, since Rx meds are typically costly versus Vitamin D3.

I have several other experiences with nutrients-versus-meds examples that are more extensive but I'll refrain from elaborating.

Jackie

Quote
Carey

This whole mentality of "drugs are bad, supplements are good" is in fact a logical fallacy and it serves no useful purpose in helping people decide what to do.

True, but nobody said that. Jackie is taking Eliquis.

Hey Jackie have you ever tried d-ribose powder for you Fibro....from what i have read it does wonders for some people with that condition...i know for me with the afib it certainly is making this malady easier to deal with.....not to mention it gives me about i would say a 25% at least boost in energy...amazing stuff.
Around 25-30 grams a day and delicious.

vanlith - Thanks.. but I no longer have FM thanks to normalizing Vitamin D; however, I do use d-ribose as part of The Strategy - nutritional guide for supportive heart health nutrients - targeting those with LAF.
I've used d-ribose for years and like the effects.
The Strategy
[www.afibbers.org]

Jackie

Quote
jpeters
True, but nobody said that. Jackie is taking Eliquis.

I know she is. I wasn't singling her out. It's just an attitude I've seen expressed here many times.

Jackie, I don't dispute that drugs are often prescribed without seeking underlying causes first, and they're often prescribed just plain wrongly. The first problem is a fundamental problem with our health care system where doctors simply can't afford to spend time on diagnosis. To stay in business they have to have patients in and out in 15 minutes, and it's a challenge to do more than write a prescription in that amount of time. The second problem is one of doctors not maintaining their continuing medical education. I wish I had a dollar for every newly diagnosed person I've seen show up on afib forums who's been put on crap like digoxin and aspirin, or worse yet, amiodarone as a first-line treatment.

Another problem is the drugs themselves...frequently very little is known about them, particularly given all the generics that have their own fillers.

Here's the latest, Valsartan:
[www.cnn.com]

"The recall is due to the presence of the impurity, N-nitrosodimethylamine (NDMA), which was found in the recalled products, according to an FDA statement. "

"NDMA is an organic chemical that is in a family of potent carcinogens. It has been used to make liquid rocket fuel, softeners and lubricants, among other products. It can also be unintentionally produced through certain chemical reactions and is a byproduct from some pesticide manufacturing, the making of rubber tires or fish processing."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2018 11:25PM by jpeters.

Quote
jpeters
Another problem is the drugs themselves...frequently very little is known about them, particularly given all the generics that have their own fillers.

Actually, what you just posted is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. Because valsartan is a drug, this contamination was proimptly discovered and a recall was ordered. Had it been an unregulated supplement, that would not have been the case. This is what I posted about this in another forum:

This demonstrates why supplements and "natural" products should be subjected to the same purity standards that drugs are. I work for a company that makes mass spectrometry and liquid chromatography equipment, which are the devices used to determine what's actually in a substance no matter how minute the amount. Every batch of drugs sold in this country has to be subjected to mass spectrometry to find out what's really in it (vs. what's supposed to be in it). This is no doubt how they found the contaminant. But supplements and natural products have no such requirement. They can be loaded with outright toxins and you'd have no way of knowing, and it's not like that hasn't happened before.

Think I'll avoid the whole thing, and stick with food whenever possible

Quote
jpeters
Think I'll avoid the whole thing, and stick with food whenever possible

Hard to go wrong with that.

I totally agree that getting nutrients from food is the way to go - when possible. But, a lot of toxins come from foods too.

Food quality varies and some may not offer optimal nutritional value and also, if not US certified organic, there's the added burden of pesticide residues. Imported foods are automatically sprayed at the border so whether organic or not, those toxins are present. Vegan and vegetarian organic food diets are certainly healthy to an extent, but typically lacks adequate B12 and iron which creates a number of health issues eventually, unless targeted supplements are also taken.
Certainly, growing your own organic veggies works well too, as long as you stick with organic seeds, soil and fertilizers as well.

Packaged and processed foods contain many additives, coloring, and other taste enhancers as do commercially prepared foods.... so nutritional deficiencies are common and yet are not known because typically patients aren't tested for missing nutrients... example, Genova Diagnostics offers the NutraEval test which is comprehensive.

When significant nutritional deficits are found, the most efficient method of repletion is via professional grade supplements. Also, there are targeted nutrients that help prevent progression of certain ailments and the higher concentrations of the supplement offers a chance to stabilize areas that are lacking.

There are definitely large quantities of pure junk supplements out there so those offered by the bottlers who go the extra couple of miles to meet GMP standards and do ingredient quality control assays prior to and after production are the most reliable. Some go so far as to state they are all US raw material sourced. They definitely are more costly, but so is consuming a junk supplement that provides zero nutrient value because its the wrong form.

High quality bottlers do independent quality control testing and label products that pass US Pharmacopeia, and NSF International or UL for independent quality control testing. There's a cluster of reputable producers of nutritional supplements that offer quality assurance.

Jackie

Quote
Jackie
I totally agree that getting nutrients from food is the way to go - when possible. But, a lot of toxins come from foods too.

Food quality varies and some may not offer optimal nutritional value and also, if not US certified organic, there's the added burden of pesticide residues.

Your Organic Food Is Treated With Pesticides, Too

[vitals.lifehacker.com]

"In other words, buying organic strawberries might expose you to more pesticide residues than buying conventional. We recommend ignoring the Dirty Dozen list entirely, and buying whichever fruits and veggies work for your diet and your budget."

Confused yet??

I've seen mass spectrometry results of certified organic and non-organic vegetables side by side. The differences were minimal, to say the least.

I have had a garden, fruit trees and berries for over 40 years, I have always said there is nothing that is truly organic. I weed my plants but in big commercial growers there is no way they can do that, if they did, the prices would be out of sight. The only way you can have food that is truly organic is to grow it yourself. Even so I still have to use spray on my fruit trees, cabbage, Brussel sprouts and broccoli, I just don't use the amounts that commercial growers do. We can't live in a glass bubble.

L

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Carey

Gosh Carey, I dont know, maybe due to the fact that meds are responsible for over 100,000 deaths in hospitals yearly? Dont mean to be contentious here, but I would just be guessing that chewing on willow bark tho not convenient, would be different than chewing on an aspirin.

The only difference between taking an aspirin and chewing willow bark would be predictability of the dosage. I know how to avoid overdosing on aspirin but I don't know how to avoid overdosing on willow bark. I also don't know why you think that chemicals extracted from plants are safer than chemicals extracted from other sources. The plant kingdom produces some impressively toxic chemicals. And above all, since supplements aren't required to meet purity standards, I don't know how to avoid unscrupulous manufacturers who produce supplements tainted with heavy metals and other toxins. It's not like there's a shortage of examples of that.

The whole notion that "natural" supplements are safer than medications in general is a fallacy.

And that is of course a wise and healthy concern, and not only supplements but toxins in some meds and our food. Not that "natural" supplements are safer, but I do find them to be without many of the side effects of meds. The premise is same for same in alternative and opposite healing for meds. Granted I do convert nicely on Flec and Metop within an hour vs several hours on supplements. Meds do work as they were intended with side effects. Treating my whole person takes months to prove.

Thank you for pointing out the “honesty” and reliability discrepancies in labeling regulations for organic produce for food safety control of pesticides and herbicides. Apparently, the truth-in-labeling law is yet another casualty in the dishonest world of marketing and consumer protection. Sobering. So what else is new.

Does this mean that the FDA requirements to obtain labeling with the USDA Organic designation is bogus? Or the Non-GMO Project Verified is bogus?

There are apparently many critics online of EWG’s mission; and these days, it’s difficult to know what’s been planted as fact and what’s actually bona fide truth. However, if there is unreliability in the specifications to obtain organic labeling, then so much more is the tragedy. I’m like Liz. Have always raised my veggies organically in summer but I do buy organic in the off-season but only US grown. However, this is another topic under the heading of “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire” because the chemicals often mentioned for pest and weed control are definitely not health-producing chemicals nor are they a nutritional requirement. Plus pesticide/herbicide residues can be neurotoxic and be an influence for stimulating an AF event should accumulations become significant. Some individuals may respond with AF and others may exhibit other effects of neurotoxicity and also mitochondrial damage. These are toxic residues in food but cheap supplements sourced from unreliable sources and produced by bottlers who don't follow the safety and GMP guidelines also can contain toxic residues including minerals such as arsenic or high natural fluoride content that is toxic, for example. Therefore the reliability of labeling is crucial.

I have a long list of studies (over 290) relating to potential health risks associated with pesticides/herbicides from various exposure sources. Here’s a sample –Perhaps some are related to the increasing incidence of the health issues mentioned. (Food for thought)…

Mangia!

Interaction between prenatal pesticide exposure and a common polymorphism in the PON1 gene on DNA methylation Dec 31, 2016
Chronic exposure to organochlorine compounds may contribute to type 2 diabetes and thyroid diseases. May 01, 2010

Occupational exposure to pesticides appears to increases the risk of Parkinson's disease. Sep 30, 2012

Persistent and non-persistent endocrine-disrupting chemicals may affect the risk of T2D. Jun 28, 2015

Pesticide exposure was associated with an increased risk of bladder cancer. Aug 18, 2016

Agricultural activity and pesticide exposure could increase bladder cancer risks. Nov 03, 2016

Background exposure to some organochlorine pesticides appears to lead to vitamin D deficiency in human.
Jan 01, 2012

Chronic occupational exposure to modern pesticides may affect reproductive outcomes in young men. Dec 31, 2016

DTT exposure is associated with increased breast cancer risk. Jan 01, 2010

Exposure to certain pyrethroids may negatively affect neurobehavioral development by 6 years of age. Feb 28, 2017

Exposure to organochlorine pesticides is an independent risk factor of hepatocellular carcinoma. Sep 14, 2011

Organochlorine pesticides may contribute to the initiation and pathogenesis of prostate cancer. Sep 01, 2010

Organophosphate exposure, at levels common among US children, may contribute to ADHD prevalence. Jun 01, 2010

Organophosphate pesticide exposure may adversely e ffect the thyroid. Aug 05, 2010

Serum concentrations of organochlorine pesticides are associated with prostate cancer incidence. Jan 01, 2010

Pesticide exposure is associated with psychological distress and suicidal ideation. Nov 01, 2010

Chronic exposure to chlorpyrifos in oil can directly alter human microbiota in terms of quantity, diversity and metabolic activity. Nov 03, 2016

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Jackie
Or the Non-GMO Project Verified is bogus?

Non-GMO products often have more pesticides then GMO, and probably a good way to ensure that you get roundup, growth hormones, etc, into your diet. Certainly there's no scientific evidence that indicate that they're healthier.

jpeters... you missed the point... I was asking if the certification process for labeling of Non-GMO food was corrupt and not reliable. There is science behind the 'built in' problems with genetically modified organisms and that's not related to pesticides residues.

Jackie

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Jackie
jpeters... you missed the point... I was asking if the certification process for labeling of Non-GMO food was corrupt and not reliable. There is science behind the 'built in' problems with genetically modified organisms and that's not related to pesticides residues.

Jackie

oh..I don't think the labeling is corrupt. You're getting non-GMO, as advertised. What's corrupt is all the marketing about the benefits.