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Aspirin

Posted by Elizabeth 
Re: Aspirin
July 07, 2018 01:51PM
Quote
hwkmn05
With all these modern wonderful meds, why are we bothering with cheap 2000 yr old salicylates?

Many of these "modern wonderful meds have caused lots of problems for people, you can read about different drug reactions right on this site. So If a drug has lasted many years there must be something good about it, some drugs have been derived from plants which were used for centuries by the natives.
Re: Aspirin
July 07, 2018 03:31PM
Quote
Elizabeth

Many of these "modern wonderful meds have caused lots of problems for people

Judging from their breakouts this week, no problems for shareholders anyway.
Re: Aspirin
July 12, 2018 10:14AM
I think that medicine truly derived from plants or flowers would be substantially different than ones synthetically manufactured in the test tubes.
Re: Aspirin
July 12, 2018 10:27AM
Quote
hwkmn05
I think that medicine truly derived from plants or flowers would be substantially different than ones synthetically manufactured in the test tubes.

What makes you think that?
Re: Aspirin
July 14, 2018 07:46AM
Quote
Carey

I think that medicine truly derived from plants or flowers would be substantially different than ones synthetically manufactured in the test tubes.

What makes you think that?
Gosh Carey, I dont know, maybe due to the fact that meds are responsible for over 100,000 deaths in hospitals yearly? Dont mean to be contentious here, but I would just be guessing that chewing on willow bark tho not convenient, would be different than chewing on an aspirin.
Re: Aspirin
July 14, 2018 11:43AM
Quote
hwkmn05
Gosh Carey, I dont know, maybe due to the fact that meds are responsible for over 100,000 deaths in hospitals yearly? Dont mean to be contentious here, but I would just be guessing that chewing on willow bark tho not convenient, would be different than chewing on an aspirin.

The only difference between taking an aspirin and chewing willow bark would be predictability of the dosage. I know how to avoid overdosing on aspirin but I don't know how to avoid overdosing on willow bark. I also don't know why you think that chemicals extracted from plants are safer than chemicals extracted from other sources. The plant kingdom produces some impressively toxic chemicals. And above all, since supplements aren't required to meet purity standards, I don't know how to avoid unscrupulous manufacturers who produce supplements tainted with heavy metals and other toxins. It's not like there's a shortage of examples of that.

The whole notion that "natural" supplements are safer than medications in general is a fallacy.
Re: Aspirin
July 14, 2018 01:59PM
The whole notion that "natural" supplements are safer than medications in general is a fallacy.


Ho, ho, it would be rare if someone died from supplements, but there are many that die from drugs, it even has happened with Eliquis, one of your favorites.

Liz



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2018 02:13PM by Elizabeth.
Re: Aspirin
July 14, 2018 03:54PM
Quote
Elizabeth
Ho, ho, it would be rare if someone died from supplements, but there are many that die from drugs, it even has happened with Eliquis, one of your favorites.
/quote]

I don't have any favorites and you just demonstrated the fallacy I'm talking about with the logic above.
Re: Aspirin
July 14, 2018 03:55PM
Anyone taking Valsartan?
Re: Aspirin
July 14, 2018 04:20PM
Carey - the "notion" isn't a fallacy...there is factual evidence in the literature confirming many drugs have far more safety issues than similar natural compounds.

hwkmn05 - Here's a confirmation of the efficacy and safety of white willow bark vs aspirin. If you do a search on the risks of taking aspirin - long term - versus Salix alba, you'll find an abundance of reports on the downside of aspirin - especially the GI damage risk - example...

CONCLUSION:
Data suggest that ASA causes significant gastroduodenal damage even at the low doses used for cardiovascular protection. These effects (both systemic and possibly local) may be pharmacodynamically distinct from the gastroduodenal toxicity seen with NSAIDs. Studies are required to establish strategies for improving the tolerability of low-dose ASA, allowing patients to continue to benefit from the cardiovascular protection associated with such therapy.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

versus:

Phytother Res. 2015 Aug;29(8):1112-6. doi: 10.1002/ptr.5377. Epub 2015 May 22.
Efficacy and Safety of White Willow Bark (Salix alba) Extracts.
Shara M1, Stohs SJ2.

Abstract

Willow bark extract has been used for thousands of years as an anti-inflammatory, antipyretic, and analgesic. In spite of its long history of use, relatively few human and animal studies have been published that confirm anecdotal observations. A small number of clinical studies have been conducted that support the use of willow bark extracts in chronic lower back and joint pain and osteoarthritis. Willow bark extracts also are widely used in sports performance and weight loss products presumably because of anti-inflammatory and analgesic activities, although no human studies have been published that specifically and directly document beneficial effects. In recent years, various in vitro and animal studies have demonstrated that the anti-inflammatory activity of willow bark extract is associated with down regulation of the inflammatory mediators tumor necrosis factor-α and nuclear factor-kappa B. Although willow bark extracts are generally standardized to salicin, other ingredients in the extracts including other salicylates as well as polyphenols, and flavonoids may also play prominent roles in the therapeutic actions. Adverse effects appear to be minimal as compared to non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs including aspirin. The primary cause for concern may relate to allergic reactions in salicylate-sensitive individuals.
PMID: 25997859
DOI: 10.1002/ptr.5377


Jackie
Re: Aspirin
July 14, 2018 07:11PM
Quote
Jackie
Carey - the "notion" isn't a fallacy...there is factual evidence in the literature confirming many drugs have far more safety issues than similar natural compounds.

The fallacy is the sweeping generalizations. If you say drugs are safer than supplements that's a nonsensical statement. If you say supplements are safer than drugs that's also a nonsensical statement. You can't compare thousands of compounds as a group. Name a specific drug and name a specific supplement and then we can compare them rationally, but making sweeping statements about them just makes no sense whatsoever and yields no true statements. Even declaring supplements as "natural" is usually misleading and false. You do realize that a large percentage of drugs are made from natural substances, right? And you also realize that many supposedly natural supplements are concocted in test tubes, right?

And finally, of course some drugs have more safety issues than some supplements. But when we discuss safety we can't discuss it without also discussing efficacy, and that's usually why some drugs have more safety issues. The fact is, there are thousands of drugs, and millions of people who are alive solely because of one or more of them and there are no comparable "natural" supplements that can replace them. This whole mentality of "drugs are bad, supplements are good" is in fact a logical fallacy and it serves no useful purpose in helping people decide what to do.
Re: Aspirin
July 15, 2018 09:21AM
Carey - I don't refute that drugs can be lifesavers. And certainly, not all drugs are bad. But a good many have side effects that compound the issue and the problem is that many drugs are prescribed without looking for an underlying nutritional deficiency that may be contributing to the symptoms. That's a major problem and a big gap in a thorough diagnostic process that involves metabolic profile testing to rule out nutritional deficiencies.

When that happens, the underlying problem may not be resolved. I have first-hand experience with that on several very significant issues. This is one:

Personal Example #1
Muscle pain and weakness. Rheumatologist assessment and diagnosis of Fibromyalgia.
Prescription for various Rx drugs to mask the pain.
Result: no improvement after several other Rx drug options are also tried.
Seek help from a Functional Medicine MD who orders a Vitamin D test based on symptoms.
Result... level is 18 when optimal should be at least 60-70, if not higher.
Prescribe natural vitamin D supplement... in incremental doses and testing periodically.
Result: Elimination of "fibromyalgia" pain plus other health benefits including superior immune system resistance to colds and flu... only 2 occurrences in over 25 years.
Economical, too, since Rx meds are typically costly versus Vitamin D3.

I have several other experiences with nutrients-versus-meds examples that are more extensive but I'll refrain from elaborating.

Jackie
Re: Aspirin
July 15, 2018 09:33AM
Quote
Carey

This whole mentality of "drugs are bad, supplements are good" is in fact a logical fallacy and it serves no useful purpose in helping people decide what to do.

True, but nobody said that. Jackie is taking Eliquis.
Re: Aspirin
July 15, 2018 11:50AM
Hey Jackie have you ever tried d-ribose powder for you Fibro....from what i have read it does wonders for some people with that condition...i know for me with the afib it certainly is making this malady easier to deal with.....not to mention it gives me about i would say a 25% at least boost in energy...amazing stuff.
Around 25-30 grams a day and delicious.
Re: Aspirin
July 15, 2018 04:55PM
vanlith - Thanks.. but I no longer have FM thanks to normalizing Vitamin D; however, I do use d-ribose as part of The Strategy - nutritional guide for supportive heart health nutrients - targeting those with LAF.
I've used d-ribose for years and like the effects.
The Strategy
[www.afibbers.org]

Jackie
Re: Aspirin
July 15, 2018 06:43PM
Quote
jpeters
True, but nobody said that. Jackie is taking Eliquis.

I know she is. I wasn't singling her out. It's just an attitude I've seen expressed here many times.

Jackie, I don't dispute that drugs are often prescribed without seeking underlying causes first, and they're often prescribed just plain wrongly. The first problem is a fundamental problem with our health care system where doctors simply can't afford to spend time on diagnosis. To stay in business they have to have patients in and out in 15 minutes, and it's a challenge to do more than write a prescription in that amount of time. The second problem is one of doctors not maintaining their continuing medical education. I wish I had a dollar for every newly diagnosed person I've seen show up on afib forums who's been put on crap like digoxin and aspirin, or worse yet, amiodarone as a first-line treatment.
Re: Aspirin
July 15, 2018 07:23PM
Another problem is the drugs themselves...frequently very little is known about them, particularly given all the generics that have their own fillers.

Here's the latest, Valsartan:
[www.cnn.com]

"The recall is due to the presence of the impurity, N-nitrosodimethylamine (NDMA), which was found in the recalled products, according to an FDA statement. "

"NDMA is an organic chemical that is in a family of potent carcinogens. It has been used to make liquid rocket fuel, softeners and lubricants, among other products. It can also be unintentionally produced through certain chemical reactions and is a byproduct from some pesticide manufacturing, the making of rubber tires or fish processing."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2018 07:25PM by jpeters.
Re: Aspirin
July 15, 2018 07:29PM
Quote
jpeters
Another problem is the drugs themselves...frequently very little is known about them, particularly given all the generics that have their own fillers.

Actually, what you just posted is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. Because valsartan is a drug, this contamination was proimptly discovered and a recall was ordered. Had it been an unregulated supplement, that would not have been the case. This is what I posted about this in another forum:

This demonstrates why supplements and "natural" products should be subjected to the same purity standards that drugs are. I work for a company that makes mass spectrometry and liquid chromatography equipment, which are the devices used to determine what's actually in a substance no matter how minute the amount. Every batch of drugs sold in this country has to be subjected to mass spectrometry to find out what's really in it (vs. what's supposed to be in it). This is no doubt how they found the contaminant. But supplements and natural products have no such requirement. They can be loaded with outright toxins and you'd have no way of knowing, and it's not like that hasn't happened before.
Re: Aspirin
July 15, 2018 07:45PM
Think I'll avoid the whole thing, and stick with food whenever possible smiling smiley
Re: Aspirin
July 16, 2018 12:16AM
Quote
jpeters
Think I'll avoid the whole thing, and stick with food whenever possible smiling smiley

Hard to go wrong with that.
Re: Aspirin
July 16, 2018 01:33PM
I totally agree that getting nutrients from food is the way to go - when possible. But, a lot of toxins come from foods too.

Food quality varies and some may not offer optimal nutritional value and also, if not US certified organic, there's the added burden of pesticide residues. Imported foods are automatically sprayed at the border so whether organic or not, those toxins are present. Vegan and vegetarian organic food diets are certainly healthy to an extent, but typically lacks adequate B12 and iron which creates a number of health issues eventually, unless targeted supplements are also taken.
Certainly, growing your own organic veggies works well too, as long as you stick with organic seeds, soil and fertilizers as well.

Packaged and processed foods contain many additives, coloring, and other taste enhancers as do commercially prepared foods.... so nutritional deficiencies are common and yet are not known because typically patients aren't tested for missing nutrients... example, Genova Diagnostics offers the NutraEval test which is comprehensive.

When significant nutritional deficits are found, the most efficient method of repletion is via professional grade supplements. Also, there are targeted nutrients that help prevent progression of certain ailments and the higher concentrations of the supplement offers a chance to stabilize areas that are lacking.

There are definitely large quantities of pure junk supplements out there so those offered by the bottlers who go the extra couple of miles to meet GMP standards and do ingredient quality control assays prior to and after production are the most reliable. Some go so far as to state they are all US raw material sourced. They definitely are more costly, but so is consuming a junk supplement that provides zero nutrient value because its the wrong form.

High quality bottlers do independent quality control testing and label products that pass US Pharmacopeia, and NSF International or UL for independent quality control testing. There's a cluster of reputable producers of nutritional supplements that offer quality assurance.

Jackie
Re: Aspirin
July 16, 2018 08:13PM
Quote
Jackie
I totally agree that getting nutrients from food is the way to go - when possible. But, a lot of toxins come from foods too.

Food quality varies and some may not offer optimal nutritional value and also, if not US certified organic, there's the added burden of pesticide residues.



Your Organic Food Is Treated With Pesticides, Too

[vitals.lifehacker.com]

"In other words, buying organic strawberries might expose you to more pesticide residues than buying conventional. We recommend ignoring the Dirty Dozen list entirely, and buying whichever fruits and veggies work for your diet and your budget."

Confused yet??
Re: Aspirin
July 16, 2018 08:45PM
I've seen mass spectrometry results of certified organic and non-organic vegetables side by side. The differences were minimal, to say the least.
Re: Aspirin
July 16, 2018 09:37PM
I have had a garden, fruit trees and berries for over 40 years, I have always said there is nothing that is truly organic. I weed my plants but in big commercial growers there is no way they can do that, if they did, the prices would be out of sight. The only way you can have food that is truly organic is to grow it yourself. Even so I still have to use spray on my fruit trees, cabbage, Brussel sprouts and broccoli, I just don't use the amounts that commercial growers do. We can't live in a glass bubble.

L
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