stopped AF

I have to tell about something that has happened, George N. wrote about CO2 and AF, I don't know what I would call what has happened but I stopped AF from occurring 3 times now. The last time was last night, I went into AF, what I did was to keep blowing out hard for a few min. (puffing) without taking any intake of breath, it made me just slightly dizzy but it STOPPED my AF, my heart went back to a normal nice beat. I have done this now 3 times and it has worked every time.

Liz

This is great to know that the method works on multiple people. Hope I don't have to use it, but it afib happens again, I'll try.

Hi Liz

How did you continue to exhale for a few minutes without breathing in? Could you give more detail?

Thanks Liz -

Kind regards

Anne

Hi Liz - Outstanding! Good for you....it's certainly wonderful to find something so empowering that works.

and Thanks again, George.

Thumbs up!
Jackie

Could you explain a bit more.

For example do you mean you take a normal breath in and exhale fast or slow? Then hold your breath for as long as you can?
Then repeat for a couple of minutes?
Or do you take a normal breath in and blow out hard and fast as you can, then repeat the process for a few minutes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2018 03:57PM by colindo.

Liz, Great news!! When I first posted this, I hoped that it might be effective for some instead of taking PIP meds to convet.

Don't know what Liz did, but the idea is to accumulate CO2 in your lungs and therefore in your serum. Hence a normal breath in a normal breath out, then hold as long as you can. When you have to breath, try to breath in only through the nose as calmly as possible. If you need to do it again, then repeat when you are comfortable. If you aren't in good health, then be careful. Pregnant women are specifically advised to not do strong breath holds as a spontaneous miscarriage can occur.

Also:

Quote
Patrick McKeown, The Oxygen Advantage
The breath-hold exercises described in this book are absolutely safe so long as they are practiced within tolerable limits. However, individuals with high blood pressure, cardiac conditions, type 1 diabetes, or any other serious health concern should not practice holding their breath either during rest or while exercising.

McKeown, Patrick. The Oxygen Advantage: The Simple, Scientifically Proven Breathing Techniques for a Healthier, Slimmer, Faster, and Fitter You (Kindle Locations 4463-4465). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

It might be good to experiment with breath holding before you are in afib, to get an idea what it feels like. Here is my original post <[www.afibbers.org]

I think there's a much simpler explanation here:

Quote

keep blowing out hard

What you did was actually a Valsalva maneuver, which has long been known to terminate atrial arrhythmias in some people.

I didn't take an intake of breath I just keep blowing out, like poof, poof, poof, poof until I couldn't anymore, didn't take too long, my AF stopped---I think a Valsalva maneuver is where you bear down hard, that isn't what I did, I just puffed hard and fast, I guess it is hard to explain.

Liz

Still trying to understand.....So you exhaled all your breath. Then when you couldn’t exhale anymore....you pursed your lips and puffed out little bits of whatever air was left in your lungs.

It that’s it.......I have been doing that for years to get rid of hiccups :.

Quote
Carey
I think there's a much simpler explanation here:

keep blowing out hard

What you did was actually a Valsalva maneuver, which has long been known to terminate atrial arrhythmias in some people.

I know for sure when I was doing my breath hold it was not a Valsalva maneuver, as it was done on an exhale and there was no pressure build up only a build up of CO2. What Liz describes was not against pressure either. A Valsalva maneuver on an exhale is done against pressure, so I concur with Liz, this was not a Valsalva maneuver.

Also, a Valsalva maneuver won't work typically on a vagal afibber (me).

Quote
lds001
I have been doing that for years to get rid of hiccups :.

Increasing CO2 will also get rid of hiccups.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2018 08:15PM by GeorgeN.

It's really interesting. If the idea is increasing the CO2 level in blood, would it theroretically be effective (and less violent) breathing in a paper bag ?
I'm thinking about this because during one of my early afib attacks, I did the opposite. I took deep breaths repeatedly, trying to recover and standing up, but of course I couldn't. I had so much O2 in excess that l couldn't move my fingers. My sister (a nurse) told me I should have done the opposite. She did suggest in this case breathing in a paper bag.

Years ago my boss with emphysema would use a technique of exhaling twice as much as he inhaled to help with his emphysema, the CO2 thing. I searched and its called Pursed lip breathing PLB. To pursed lip breathe[/b], you should inhale through your nose for 2 seconds, then exhale slowly through pursed lips for 4 seconds. Lots of stuff out there about PLB. Some of you may have to tweak this technique a little bit for AF, if the this PLB technique does work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2018 10:35AM by afibbers.

Quote
afibbers
Years ago my boss with emphysema would use a technique of exhaling twice as much as he inhaled to help with his emphysema, the CO2 thing. I searched and its called Pursed lip breathing PLB. To pursed lip breathe, you should inhale through your nose for 2 seconds, then exhale slowly through pursed lips for 4 seconds. Lots of stuff out there about PLB. Some of you may have to tweak this technique a little bit for AF, if the this PLB technique does work.

I had a doctor tell me once that PLB is one of the best methods to calm yourself down in a panic attack or anxiety situation. I used to do it sometimes back when I was afraid to fly. Definitely has some good effects

Quote
Pompon
It's really interesting. If the idea is increasing the CO2 level in blood, would it theroretically be effective (and less violent) breathing in a paper bag ?
I'm thinking about this because during one of my early afib attacks, I did the opposite. I took deep breaths repeatedly, trying to recover and standing up, but of course I couldn't. I had so much O2 in excess that l couldn't move my fingers. My sister (a nurse) told me I should have done the opposite. She did suggest in this case breathing in a paper bag.

You didn't have O2 in excess, the lower level of serum CO2 from your high volume breathing will constrict the arteries as well as make O2 less available to the cells because of the the Bohr Effect on hemoglobin. See my first post on this <[www.afibbers.org]

A paper bag can work, however just holding your breath after a normal exhale will allow the CO2 to build in your lungs. You can feel the CO2 increase as the "need for air" signal gets stronger (correlated with the CO2 level or partial pressure of CO2 in the serum). As we exercise, CO2 production increases, so if one holds their breath out while exercising, the CO2 will build faster. Exercise doesn't need to be very much to see this increase in CO2 production. If you move around and, for example, shake your head up and down while holding your breath, it will allow you do it with a lower "need to breath" feeling. Here is an video example <[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2018 08:02PM by GeorgeN.

Thanks, George, for your explanations. Always appreciated.

I have used the Valsalva maneuver to stop my atrial fibrillation with some success. To track the conversion,I bought an Innovo Deluxe Fingertip Pulse Oximeter with Plethysmograph and Perfusion Index from Amazon ($26.99). With this pulse oximeter, I can watch the change to my heartbeat during the Valsalva maneuver and the return to a normal heartbeat.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2018 09:16PM by Jim Benton.

A Valsava maneuver will typically work for afibbers who have an adrenergic trigger, along with other vagal maneuvers, such as face in cold water <[www.webmd.com] Unfortunately, they typically don't work for afibbers with a vagal trigger. If it works, that is wonderful!

Last night my wife used Liz's technique to stop hiccups and it worked.
It didn't take long, about 6 or 8 blowouts (poof's) like blowing out the candles on a birthday cake quickly.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2018 02:18AM by colindo.

Oh, that's great, you described it perfectly, that is what I did and it didn't take long as you said. I didn't take intakes of breath, I just kept puffing.

liz



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2018 11:22PM by Elizabeth.

I try to stop an afib by coughing deeply and strongly. Sometimes it helps for awhile. I do not understand the physiology behind it. Has it anything to do with the CO2 level or not?

Quote
Leah H.
I try to stop an afib by coughing deeply and strongly. Sometimes it helps for awhile. I do not understand the physiology behind it. Has it anything to do with the CO2 level or not?

I'm guessing this would be a vagal maneuver, a strong cough would have an effect like bearing down.

The vagal maneuver and the breath holding are going at it from two different aspects. People that have an adrenergic trigger can sometimes stop their afib with a vagal maneuver, which increases vagal tone (the opposite of the adrenergic sympathetic tone that is their trigger). The breath holding should increase CO2, which will lengthen the ERP (or cell reset time) as I described here <[www.afibbers.org] . This should work for both vagal and adrenergic afibbers. Vagal afibbers can sometimes convert an episode with exercise or other activity which increases sympathetic tone, the opposite of their vagal trigger. Exercise will usually not convert an adrenergic afibber.

An explanation of vagal and adrenergic afib triggers is here <[www.afibbers.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2018 09:23PM by GeorgeN.

Thank you, George, for your detailed reply.

They are at least four SEPARATE and DISTINCT things being discussed in this enlightening thread:

1) Elizabeth: Repeated exhaling/blowing out. Of course if you do keep it up long enough, there is inevitably some inhaling happening but it is really easy to not notice it if you just keep puffing out. If it is done briefly, it probably has little to do with increasing CO2 and is different from the method George described. Thanks for this Elizabeth, I will try it!

2) The method that George described (which is different from the above) and is taught in the McKeown book The Oxygen Advantage, is called the Buteyko Method. See Buteyko method Wikipedia. It is meant to increase CO2 in the system as an antidote to a host of physical issues. There are several techniques in Buteyko, the essential one of which is to practice holding one's breath after exhaling all the air out of the lungs.

The idea is that the CO2 builds up in the body during this time. The time measured from a full exhale until you get the definite urge to breathe again is called the Control Pause. By practicing, in theory one can lengthen the Control Pause, build up more CO2 in the body, and thereby improve one's health.

I'm very glad it worked for George and hopefully will for others. A year after I got afib, I seriously practiced Buteyko for a time with a Buteyko teacher; unfortunately it did not help to stop or reduce my afib episodes. Just a note that for most people significantly increasing one's Control Pause time requires real dedication and effort.

A more recent and similar approach to the breath holding, while adding cold exposure and yogic methods is promulgated by the Dutchman Wim Hof.

3) Pursed Lip Breathing (different from both of the aboveO is simply inhaling through the nose and exhaling twice as long as the inhale through pursed lips, that's it. Its helpful for emphysema/COPD.

4. The Valsalva maneuver, which is again different from all of the above.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2018 10:13PM by DavidK.