Welcome to the Afibber’s Forum
Our 18th Year Online!
Moderated by: Shannon Dickson


Afibbers Home Afibbers Forum General Health Forum
Afib Resources Afib Database Vitamin Shop


Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile

Advanced

Had an Ablation? Don't use Serrapeptase!

Posted by Sam 
Sam
Had an Ablation? Don't use Serrapeptase!
May 29, 2018 05:40AM
Just a reminder for those using or thinking of using this supplement.

I've been a regular user of Serrapeptase for some time for its benefits in getting rid of fibrosis and helping prevent senile dementia.

However I'll be getting an ablation soon and that means I'll be stopping Serrapeptase as it could dissolve the vital scar tissue preventing Afib.

Sam
Re: Had an Ablation? Don't use Serrapeptase!
May 29, 2018 03:14PM
Sam - can you cite a reference where serrapeptase is specifically contraindicated after ablation?

Thanks,
Jackie
Re: Had an Ablation? Don't use Serrapeptase!
May 29, 2018 04:58PM
Hi Jackie,

I kind of take Sam’s point. Given that one of the touted benefits of serrapeptase is scar tissue digestion do you not think that the chances of PV reconnection will be at least a little higher with serrapeptase use than without?

I doubt that there are specific references out there in this regard so would love to know what you think!

Best regards,

Mike
Re: Had an Ablation? Don't use Serrapeptase!
May 30, 2018 09:33AM
Hi Mike..
If you do an advanced search here on fibrosis, you'll find an abundance of posts and reports on the topic... what causes it, why it causes arrhythmia, what's the risk of cardiac fibrosis to heart function, etc. and how systemic enzymes help prevent fibrosis and inflammation.

In this post from a few years ago, my response... quote:
Shannon - when I had the first ablation, I recall asking Dr. Natale about concerns that enzymes would disrupt the purpose of the scar tissue generated by the ablation. He said it would not.
[www.afibbers.org]

My first ablation was in 2003. I've used a combination of nattokinase, serrapeptase, lumbrokinase since then... I've varied what I use and the dosage. But, now that I'm on Eliquis, unfortunately, I've stopped the systemic enzymes which doesn't make me happy at all.

Jackie
Sam
Re: Had an Ablation? Don't use Serrapeptase!
May 30, 2018 10:28AM
Jackie, the whole idea behind Serrapeptase ( as you probably know) is that it dissolves non-living tissue in the body.
If you Goggle 'Serrapeptase for scar tissue' you'll find a multitude of references saying that it dissolves scar tissue.
Since an ablation works by creating scar tissue in the heart muscle it seemed to me that it would also dissolve these scars.
I cannot logically think how these would be "spared".

One of the foremost proponents of Serrapeptase is Robert Redfern, author of the book The Miracle Enzyme. His website allows you to ask him questions so I asked about its effects on Ablation scars. His response was that it would indeed try to dissolve these.

I really like Serrapeptase and its many claimed benefits so would love to hear that it does indeed spare Ablation scars but I don't see how this could be possible.

Sam
Re: Had an Ablation? Don't use Serrapeptase!
May 30, 2018 01:42PM
Hi Jackie,

Many thanks for the response. Whilst I obviously - as always - totally take and appreciate your points/views, I do understand Sam's concerns. I have in fact myself being wondering about whether to continue the Serrapeptase after I have my own ablation at whatever point in the (likely near term) future and for the same reasons as Sam. Believe me, I've been taking 80,000 iu Serrapeptase for 5 or so years now and really don't want to ever stop taking it. But when I have an ablation I REALLY don't want to take anything that might help those PVs reconnect! I hear what Natale told you and obviously respect that. But I also hear what Sam is saying and I must admit to sharing his concerns.

Best,

Mike
Re: Had an Ablation? Don't use Serrapeptase!
May 30, 2018 04:46PM
Mike - Of course. I appreciate Sam's input and concerns and yours as well.

As I commented earlier, back then, I was taking a combo of enzymes with the primary focus being fibrinolytic in nature mainly to avoid any potential adverse clotting if I were to have a bout of 'silent' afib so I wanted my blood to have good, low viscosity. You may recall, that precaution worked to my advantage when I did have the recurrence of AF 103 days after my first ablation... which coincided with a heart CT scan just after that which revealed a clot in the LAA. But I didn't learn the clot was there until much later.... the point being, the fibrinolytic enzymes did work for my intention and Dr. Natale said to continue the enzyme practice.

My other intention was to avoid the formation of cardiac fibrosis which is a known cause AF and happens as we age ... or age prematurely as a result of the amount of oxidative stress damage we can produce in our bodies. I'm typically prevention oriented.

After the CT clot revelation, I continued on with the combination of fibrinolytic enzymes for that same reason, mostly nattokinase, but also serrapeptase and occasionally, lumbrokinase... until 11 years later when my heart flared again... presumably from treating the markers for Lyme's Disease... or so I'm told.

As you might imagine, I have an abundance of research and details from the CR Session 24 on Cardiac Fibrosis.
When I have some time, I'll dig out those files to see if I can locate formal data on the topic. Meanwhile, if you find relevant research, please share.

Be well,
Jackie
Re: Had an Ablation? Don't use Serrapeptase!
June 12, 2018 09:13PM
Friends,

I'm wondering, if we assume for the purpose of discussion that the concern about serrapeptase is a valid one, then is there some reason that nattokinase and lumbrokinase would not raise similar concerns? In other words, what's special in this respect about serrapeptase?

Thanks!

--Lance
Re: Had an Ablation? Don't use Serrapeptase!
June 14, 2018 08:27AM
Good question, Lance.... and an extensive topic since, as you note, there are several types of these enzymes that have varied properties and targets.

Start with this previous post
[www.afibbers.org]


First, it’s important to recognize that the nomenclature for describing these systemic enzymes varies significantly depending on the source/bottler….and can be both confusing and misleading. There are other systemic, proteolytic and fibrinolytic enzymes that also have similar benefits to accomplish the goal of lowering inflammatory stimulators, reducing blood viscosity and helping to avoid adverse clotting…. such as pycnogenol, serrapeptase, bromelain, papain and so on. Certainly all can help lower inflammation which ultimately helps to reduce hyperviscosity… or the ‘thick, sticky blood’ characteristic everyone needs to avoid.

Certainly for afibbers specifically, the prevention of clot formation is the target so it’s the fibrinolytic enzyme property or benefit is primary and keeping the inflammatory factors low is equally important.

Following are some of the points and criteria I’ve used to “reassure myself” that either Nattokinase or Lumbrokinase are the most beneficial for afibbers based on the science according to the enzyme professionals.


My experience has been with the fibrinolytic enzyme, nattokinase (See CR Sessions 39 and 40)… and the various posts offered on reducing clot risks. At that time, I was very interested in finding something safe and effective as a replacement for warfarin/Coumadin… since I was not able to use that and remain in the safe INR range. While I was researching nattokinase (NK), I had the good fortune to be able to converse with Ralph Holsworth, D.O. who was actively setting up the use of NK here in the US. He provided me with data, studies, and his experience with a variety of conditions that were helped by this enzyme including the safe use as a warfarin replacement. I used NK safely and successfully for almost 8 years prior to my first ablation and then afterwards for 11 years until I was prescribed Eliquis for ablations 2 and 3.

Prior to Eliquis, I used a variety of fibrinolytic and proteolytic systemic enzymes because I was convinced of the benefits and efficacy of systemic enzymes for reducing inflammatory response, helping prevent cardiac fibrosis, modulating immune responses and especially keeping inflammatory markers such as C-reactive Protein, etc. in the safe, low range.

Dr. Holsworth is quoted in this explanatory paragraph about the function of nattokinase:
“Nattokinase is a particularly potent treatment because it enhances the body’s natural ability to fight blood clots in several different ways and has many benefits including convenience of oral administration, confirmed efficacy, prolonged effects, cost effectiveness, and can be used preventatively. It is a naturally occurring, food dietary supplement that has demonstrated stability in the gastrointestinal tract. The properties of nattokinase closely resemble those properties of plasmin so it dissolves fibrin directly! More importantly, it also enhances the body’s production of both plasmin and other clot dissolving agents, including urokinase. Nattokinase may actually be superior to conventional clot-dissolving drugs such as urokinase, and streptokinase, which are only effective therapeutically when taken intravenously within 12 hours of a stroke or heart attack. Nattokinase, however, may help prevent the conditions leading to blood clots with an oral daily dose of as little as 2,000 fibrin units (FU).” quote from Nattokinase and Cardiovascular Health, by Dr. Holsworth.

Also, see this chart and following comments by Dr. Holsworth
[www.cardiokinase.com]

Also, I’ve mentioned previously, that Garry F. Gordon, MD, DO, MD(H) had an active website forum for healthcare practitioners and Dr. Gordon often talked about his tremendous success with using the lumbrokinase enzyme. He talked often about never having patients develop clots or strokes when using his favorite Bolouke (lumbrokinase) enzyme. The Bolouke was more expensive than the nattokinase so I didn’t change. Lumbrokinase offers a safe, effective alternative for those who can’t take nattokinase because of the soy origins.
[www.afibbers.org]
[www.canadarna.com]
[www.iprogressivemed.com]

Also for details clarification ….Here’s one previous explanatory post on dose measurements.

What is the Difference between Fibrin Units (FU) and International Units (IU)?

A Fibrin Unit is an old standard of measurement that used to be associated with nattokinase, but is not currently endorsed by Dr. Sumi

Cardiokinase features the more widely-accepted International Units

Comparative testing has confirmed that 25 IU (100 mg) of Cardiokinase is equal 2500 FU of the old nattokinase which was only 2000 FU per 100 mg, making Cardiokinase much more potent.

-------

Why is Fibrinolytic Activity Important?
Fibrin is a protein that naturally forms in the blood after trauma or injury. The body can also produce fibrin when there is no trauma or injury. When this type of unhealthy formation occurs, there are major implications for cardiovascular and cerebrovascular health. The fibrinolytic activity of Cardiokinase™ can help to:
• Minimize the formation of an inadvertent blood clot
• Decrease blood sluggishness (anti-viscogenic)
• Improve circulation (release of tissue-plasminogen activator—t-PA)
• Maintain healthy effects on blood pressure
• Establish blood cells that are less likely to stick to vessel walls, especially veins,
decreasing the development of unhealthy clots
[www.pureprescriptions.com]

Related post on Nattokinase plus more:
[www.afibbers.org]

This identification comes from Klaire Labs, producer of professional-quality nutraceuticals.
SYSTEMIC ENZYMES
The following are suggestions for the use of systemic enzymes:
• Evaluate cardiovascular disease (CVD) risk factors and discuss the importance of normal body weight and a heart-healthy diet.
• Consider nattokinase (NK) as a potent natural ingredient to support healthy blood pressure and cardiovascular health.
• For individuals with muscle soreness or arthritis, bromelain may help to reduce inflammation.
• Consider Serratia peptidase (SP) supplementation for individuals with bronchitis or rhinosinusitis.
• No single enzyme is sufficient to degrade undesirable biofilm. Mixtures of polysaccharide-specific enzymes along with proteases have the best chance of disrupting the biofilm matrix that embeds gut organisms.
• Systemic enzyme supplements should be taken between meals.


[www.afibbers.org] Scroll down to CR 39 and 40 on Nattokinase.

This website lists the properties and merits of Serrapeptase.
[www.globalhealingcenter.com]

Michael Murray, ND…report on proteolytic enzymes including Serrapeptase.
www.laleva.org/eng/2004/05/natural_health_the_healing_power_of_proteolytic_enzymes.html


I hope this helps.

Jackie
Re: Had an Ablation? Don't use Serrapeptase!
June 14, 2018 03:49PM
Thanks, Jackie. Great information, as usual!

--Lance
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login