how to have a healthy diet while on coumadin?

Hello everyone,

This is my first post to the group, however I have been private messaging with Jackie, who has been incredibly
supportive, knowledgeable and extremely helpful.

I was diagnosed with afib about 1 year ago. I tried to go the natural route without taking anticoagulants or any other medical
intervention. However, with the pressure of my doctors and family I succumbed to taking Coumadin.

I would consider myself a vegetarian, who only eats organic, unless of course I happen to eat out, and even then, I won't
eat chicken, meat or fish unless it is wild and/or organic. As I am sure you are all aware that while on Coumadin, they
do say you can eat whatever you want consistently, but as a result your Coumadin medication must be increased.
How do I continue to eat healthy and not have to increase my medication?

I've also noticed that all the pills contain some sort of dye to make them more distinguishable with the exception of the 10 mg.
Is there anyone out there who has had experience or insight into this situation? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

Quote
whitehaven
How do I continue to eat healthy and not have to increase my medication?

What do you mean by healthy? If you mean large amounts of green vegetables then that's going to lower your INR and you're going to have to increase the Coumadin to compensate.

Alternatively you could switch to a NOAC such as Eliquis or Pradaxa and then just eat whatever you want.

yes, I do mean green leafy veggies without having to increase Coumadin levels. I prefer to be on a drug
that's been around for 50 plus years instead of the newer drugs.

Whitehaven…

Definitely, be aware that the challenge for maintaining a stable INR when taking Coumadin is consistency with intake of vitamin K 1 containing foods. In the old days when there was no other option, many people did very well controlling diet and stabilizing the INR... yet many did not. So, you'll have to see how it works for you.

Be aware that there is also the increased risk of soft tissue calcifications with long-term use of warfarin/Coumadin. There are numerous, previous posts here on the use of vitamin K2 in the specific form of menaquinone 7 or K2 MK7. Taking daily doses of K2 MK7 helps prevent the calcium deposition in arteries and other tissues.

Here’s a clip from a previous post on this topic from March 2017 discussing Vitamin D which included the MK7 info and several other links for your investigation. Hope all this isn’t overwhelming.

Jackie

[www.afibbers.org]
Just to illustrate higher dosing is effective… A recently published study indicates 180 mcg (called low dose) of MK7 helps build bone in post menopausal women…and increased Vitamin K status.

Note this is how they evaluated vitamin K status:
Circulating uncarboxylated osteocalcin (ucOC) and carboxylated OC (cOC) were measured; the ucOC/cOC ratio served as marker of vitamin K status.

"Three-year low-dose menaquinone-7 supplementation helps decrease bone loss in healthy postmenopausal women," Knapen MH, Drummen NE, et al, Osteoporos Int, 2013 March 23; (Address: VitaK, Maastricht University, Oxfordlaan 70, 6229 EV, Maastricht, The Netherlands).

In a placebo-controlled study involving 244 healthy, postmenopausal women, supplementation with vitamin K2 (menaquinone-7, MK-7, 180 microg/d) for a period of 3 years was found to be associated with significant improvements in vitamin K status, as well as decreases in the age-related declines in BMC and bone mineral density at the lumbar spine and femoral neck (and not the total hip), and significant decreases in the loss of vertebral height of the lower thoracic region at the mid-site of the vertebrae. These results suggest that supplementation with MK-7 was help reduce bone loss in postmenopausal women. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
================

Just to illustrate higher dosing is effective… A recently published study indicates 180 mcg (called low dose) of MK7 helps build bone in post menopausal women…and increased Vitamin K status.

Note this is how they evaluated vitamin K status:
Circulating uncarboxylated osteocalcin (ucOC) and carboxylated OC (cOC) were measured; the ucOC/cOC ratio served as marker of vitamin K status.

"Three-year low-dose menaquinone-7 supplementation helps decrease bone loss in healthy postmenopausal women," Knapen MH, Drummen NE, et al, Osteoporos Int, 2013 March 23; (Address: VitaK, Maastricht University, Oxfordlaan 70, 6229 EV, Maastricht, The Netherlands).

In a placebo-controlled study involving 244 healthy, postmenopausal women, supplementation with vitamin K2 (menaquinone-7, MK-7, 180 microg/d) for a period of 3 years was found to be associated with significant improvements in vitamin K status, as well as decreases in the age-related declines in BMC and bone mineral density at the lumbar spine and femoral neck (and not the total hip), and significant decreases in the loss of vertebral height of the lower thoracic region at the mid-site of the vertebrae. These results suggest that supplementation with MK-7 was help reduce bone loss in postmenopausal women. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

=============

This is good timing. I was listening to Naturopathic Physician, Michael Murray, who hosted his online Natural Health Summit this week and one speaker talked about "The Surprising Secret to Stronger Bones and a Healthier Heart" which was on Vitamin K2. Speaker: Kate Rheaume-Bleue, ND - Authority on vitamin K2 and author of the best-selling book Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox: How a Little Known Vitamin Could Save Your Life. These are my notes… useful for us here in this thread and definitely for overall arterial and heart health.

As we know, the risks of soft tissue calcifications from circulating calcium (as in arteries and aorta )… esp. when taking Vitamin D.. which is why we use the K2 MK7 to help direct that calcium into bones where it belongs and keep it out of soft tissue. To answer the Xalerto question, “Dr. Kate” said, the only anticoagulant that would be a concern is warfarin since that functions through vitamin K pathways…and to use K2 MK7 with warfarin would not work because you’d have to adjust downward and wouldn’t get the benefits of vitamin K. Safe to use with all the new anticoags and also aspirin.

(Long ago, I have posted about people who were taking warfarin on a permanent basis and the long-term effects of severe aortic calcifications and osteoporosis. Now that the new anticoags are available, that should solve the problem.)

Dr. Kate said the more Vit. D you take, the more MK7 you need to take as well. Says a low dose (what I use now) is the 200 mcg and it can be safely doubled to 500 mcg and often more… except higher may cause stomach upset for some.

She emphasizes it’s smart to have the vitamin D test so you know how aggressive to be. You can get that through Life Extension yourself or through your doctor.

Her points:
• Vitamin K2 deficiency is wide spread
• K2 MK7 is very safe and is without toxic reactions – has a high safety profile
• If you have arterial or aortic calcifications its extremely important to take at higher doses, as it reverses the calcifications….min. would be the 500 mcg.
• As we age, most people have some evidence of arterial calcifications.
• MK7 not only directs circulating serum calcium into bones where it belongs, it is also important for activating the production of collagen in the Protein Matrix which is important for bone flexibility.. Bones need to be strong (ie calcium) , but also flexible so if you fall – they don’t break as readily as if they are brittle.
• Eventually we will have K2 testing just as we have Vitamin D testing now. It’s very important and long overdue.
• Dosing: Bare minimum is 180 – 200 mcg/day.
• Prevent and reverse arterial calcifications – minimum of 500 mcg/day

Bottom line… increasing MK7 will get faster decalcification results and help prevent extra calcium buildup from Vitamin D supplementation…and overall improve heart health significantly. The K2 deficiency is not gender specific; can happen in both women and men…as does osteoporosis and arterial calcifications.

Jackie


Here are a couple links of many that help explain this – Interview with one of the world’s top Vitamin K researchers, Leon Schurgers, PhD – University of Maastricht, Netherlands.

Part 1: Vitamin K2 Puts Calcium in Bones and Removes Calcium From Arteries
An interview with Dr. Leon Schurgers
[www.drpasswater.com]


Vitamin K2 Puts Calcium in Bones and Removes Calcium From Arteries.
Part 2: A look at the data: An interview with Leon Schurgers, PhD
By Richard A. Passwater, Ph.D.
[www.drpasswater.com]


Integrative Cardiologist, Stephen Sinatra, MD… offers this
[www.drsinatra.com]

Then, additionally and current news – another Passwater interview with
Dr. Schurgers from 2014…Part 3 on more benefits of Vitamin K2 MK7

New Discoveries about the Role of Vitamin K in Health, Part 3: Brain and Nerve Function, Cognitive Function, Memory, Alzheimer’s Disease and Parkinson’s Disease
[wholefoodsmagazine.com]



Summary Report on Benefits of K2 MK7
[makebetterhabits.wordpress.com]

Quote
whitehaven
yes, I do mean green leafy veggies without having to increase Coumadin levels. I prefer to be on a drug
that's been around for 50 plus years instead of the newer drugs.

As Jackie says, consistency of intake of greens is the key. I would not worry that your dose of warfarin may increase to offset the greens. You just want to be consistent. Also, in Han's new stroke book, on p 212 he mentions a study where they say that the intake of 100 mcg/day of Vitamin K2 MK-7 (which does not impact clotting) will have a very nominal impact on INR (0.2). <[www.afibbers.org]

George

Quote
whitehaven
yes, I do mean green leafy veggies without having to increase Coumadin levels. I prefer to be on a drug
that's been around for 50 plus years instead of the newer drugs.

I live on big, leafy salads and have a rock solid INR with 2.5mg a day. My understanding is Coumadin interacts only with the clotting properties of vitamin K. You certainly don't want to cut it out of your diet.

Hi Jackie,

What brand of MK 7 do you use ? In your response Dr. Kate responded that the only anticoagulant that would be a concern
is warfarin since that functions through the vitamin K pathways. What do you think about that?

Whitehaven - Keep in mind that I am on Eliquis and not warfarin/coumadin.

Dr. Kate is correct... it's just the K1 that you would not want to supplement since you are already eating a diet rich in veggies. As you get into studying those links I provided in that post, you'll see Dr. Schurgers' explanation for the types or forms of the Vitamin K... So the K1 form... is what's in in the veggies and leafy greens and is the one you need to calculate or measure and be consistent with your food intake quantities of Vitamin K-containing foods while you are on warfarin/coumadin.... so that your INR remains stable.

The K2 MK7 is the menaquinone form that is involved with directing circulating calcium into bones and not contributing to soft tissue deposits aka calcifications like arteries or making bone spurs.

ie... Schurgers: As two natural sub-families of vitamin K are known, designated as K1 (phylloquinone) and K2 (menaquinone), they needed further evaluation. Because of their dissimilarity in chemical structure, these two sub-families of vitamin K have different bioactivities, efficacies and bioavailabilities, which impact the way they function within the body. Figure 2 shows the chemical structures of the two vitamin K sub-families.

The form I use is the MK7 - by Jarrow... which has 90 micrograms. I use 2 softgels
Here's one from iHerb...[www.iherb.com]

I had been using a combo K product from Life Extension that had 200 mcg of MK7 but it appears to be discontinued... so the Jarrow is a good substitute for me. Even though I do not take warfarin, I am still following the recommendations to help keep arteries clear with the help of MK7 and of course, I want to maintain strong bones.

My Family Practice MD who orders my periodic bone density scans was thrilled with my last result a couple years ago. I asked her at the time if there was any need to continue with those scans at my age (I was 80) and she said "no."

Let me know if this isn't clear.

Best to you,
Jackie

I've been on Coumadin for years now. I eat meat so can't talk about that aspect, but you mentioned dyes. I am prescribed 10 mg tablets because I was allergic to the dye in the 5mg tablets. When I first took those I broke out in hives all over my body. I looked everywhere online and finally found someone who had also been allergic to the 5mg tablets. I convinced my doc of this and got the white 10mg tablets that I cut in half. No hives since.
Nancy