Safety of caffeine, alcohol and Stimm treatments after having an ablation

Good evening all I've had 2 ablations done by Dr. Natale, and so far, all is good. It's been almost 4 years since my last one, so hoping and expecting NSR will continue.

My first ablation was a LAA or left atrial appendage isolation, which to my understanding, is harder for doctor to do, but often is the "HUB" of where the afib is originating. Once done, getting Afib again is pretty rare, I believe. Perhaps Shannon can shed some more light on this comment..

Which brings me to my questions. First...is it pretty safe to drink caffeine again in a case like mine? Have a little wine or perhaps one drink from time to time?

Secondly, I see an acupuncturist for my neck and shoulders, as I have some scoliosis and am tight in those muscles a lot. As would happen, I was lying on his table 4 years ago (and 6 months after getting my first Afib ablation w/Dr Natale), when my Acupuncturist put a needle in my left shoulder and Bam! I went into Atrial Flutter. For the first time in my 10 year Afib history, I had to go get "paddled" at the hospital, to go back into sinus rhythm. That lasted just 2 weeks, so back down to Texas I went to get my second ablation. Since then, all appears to be normal and fine.

Today I was at the acupuncturist and asking for him to use Stimm (sp?) on me to help with my sciatica (OH, the joys of getting older...trading one ailment for another - ha!), and he really did not want to do that, as he was afraid it might stimulate my heart. I tried to convince him and told him that the physical therapist uses it all the time, and come to think of it, my Chiropractor does too (are you getting the idea that I am in one treatment or another quite a bit? Yah...but not always..just going through a hurting time right now)

Does anyone know if : Stimm is Ok to use on someone who has had a successful ablation and has been fine for 4 years (yet doctors and such act as if you still have it).....and also, how about having some coffee and/or alcohol (which would be an infrequent if not rare desire of mine anyway)

Your thoughts?

Barb

As with everything, just try it and see how it affects you in a controlled environment (i.e. - don't have an Irish coffee while using the stim machine!). If you are careful with hydration (important for both caffeine and alcohol), it's probably going to be OK. I'd follow either one of those beverages with a water.

I actually HAVE been drinking a little coffee most days and haven't noticed a problem..although sometimes I may have more PAC's later which is probably attributed to that. I hate to "just try it" on things that aren't a good idea however, as I wrestled with Afib for 10 years, had 2 ablations and definitely don't want to do anything to bring me back down that road.....

Particularly curious about the Stim treatments...hopefully someone with knowledge about that and Afib will hop on and let us know.

Thanks for responding, Wolfpack....(which does beg the question....why that name?) lol

Barb

Caffeine in normal doses isn't an afib trigger, and in fact there's evidence that it may be beneficial.

It's been 11 years since my successful ablation. I have a glass of wine or a beer every evening, plus I have a 16 oz coffee every morning. Neither have had any impact on my heart, no flutter, etc. I do take Mg, K, and Taurine, which pretty much eliminated occasional flutter.

I'm a little over 1 year out from my first and only Natale ablation.

With respect to caffeine, I had begun drinking coffee before my ablation, because I'd already found a negative correlation between drinking coffee and AF (as in, if I drank coffee, I seemed to have less AF.) I'm currently drinking an average of about 3 standard cups a day from a Jura superautomatic machine, using organic beans. Some days I'll go as low as 1 cup, some as much as 5. No correlation with AF or PACs for me. This may not hold for others, so be careful about extrapolating. Genetically, I test as a fast caffeine metabolizer.

With respect to alcohol, I was a 1-2 glass of wine per day a drinker before AF, pretty much 7 days per week. After AF, I went off and on, because I couldn't find a positive or negative correlation. But I figured it was best not to take any chances. After my ablation, I cautiously re-introduced drinking to my routine. Now there doesn't seem to be any correlation with alcohol and AF, at least for me. Not at the 1-2 glasses of wine, 2-3 times per week level, anyway (and a couple of, ahem, bigger tests.) Again, this is me, not everyone, so who knows.

With respect to acupuncture, every time I've tried it (3-4 times now), it hasn't worked (for leg pain) or has made things worse (for AF.) My fib got significantly worse when I tried the acupuncture route. This is acupuncture with and without the chinese herbs, done at 2 different practitioners. And it's not the needles--I've done prolotherapy both before and after the ablation, and never had a problem. But again, that's my personal experience. You may be different.

Hope this helps a bit!

JKAF - did you have that reaction to acupuncture after your ablation? I've been going for acupucture for a few years and the only time I had a problem was after my first ablation, when I went into Atrial Flutter after he inserted a needle into the shoulder area.... apparently, there were a few "spots" not detected in my initial Ablation that were taken care of with ablation #2. Since then (4 years), no problem. My acupuncturist is very hesitant to use the Stimm along with the needles, as he thinks it might give too much stimulation and possibly trigger Afib again.....

As for coffee, I do drink some now, but it was after I drank about 1/2 cup of Starbucks coffee that I had my very first Afib episode...so caffeine can definitely be a trigger...at least it was for me.

I think the real question is: Can we go back to using/doing pretty much what we used to do before we had Afib, or has that changed things indefinitely? I feel like the doctors act as if I still have it...even though I don't anymore.

Barb

I actually haven't done acupuncture after the ablation, so I don't have a before/after comparison, sorry.

With respect to the real question, I've decided to go back to pretty much what I used to do before AF, but I should note that, before AF, I had already switched to a much healthier, more active lifestyle, with organic/whole foods, low-ish carb diet with intermittent fasting, all of which had reversed my high blood pressure and allowed me to shed 40 lbs. So the lifestyle changes were already in place before the ablation. But, beyond that, I've gone back to doing what I do.

Quote
tobherd
As for coffee, I do drink some now, but it was after I drank about 1/2 cup of Starbucks coffee that I had my very first Afib episode...so caffeine can definitely be a trigger...at least it was for me.

A single event is a coincidence, not a trigger. Think about it: you're always doing something immediately before every afib episode, so there's always going to be something that seems like it triggered it. Unless you find that it consistently triggers it every time over multiple trials, I don't believe it caused your afib. It's much more likely purely a coincidence.

Quote

As for coffee, I do drink some now, but it was after I drank about 1/2 cup of Starbucks coffee that I had my very first Afib episode...so caffeine can definitely be a trigger...at least it was for me.

Unless you were drinking heavily or doing other super unhealthy things, there's no reason to change anything. I tried changing various things over the years like giving up alcohol, caffeine, etc, and nothing made a difference. So I just went back to living my life as I always did, with multiple cups of coffee every day and a drink or two in the evenings and it made absolutely no difference. Afib does what afib wants to do, when it wants, and most things that people think are triggers simply aren't. Don't give up things you enjoy unnecessarily.

Quote
tobherd
..(which does beg the question....why that name?) lol

NC State University grad. School spirit, that’s all. My other idea for a username, death2tarheels, failed the “nice” test.

Quote
wolfpack
My other idea for a username, death2tarheels, failed the “nice” test.

LOL!

(Former resident of Cary, NC)

Hard to say, as I didn't drink coffee much before I had Afib, it came on as I was drinking a strong cup of coffee, and alcohol would bring it on as well. For me, it felt like caffeine and alcohol were triggers. And there definitely ARE triggers for most of us, it seems.

I will continue a little caffeine as I seem to be OK with it now. Haven't had almost any alcohol, but would like to try an occasional drink....don't have the nerve yet. Thankfully, I am hanging in there just doing what I've been doing - nothing excessive.

Thanks for your input Have a good night ~ Barb

Thanks for your input on this. I've done pretty much the same, although not so well with lowering carbs...I'm working on that right now. How do you schedule your intermittent fasting, by the way? That's always intrigued me.

Barb

Carey makes a good point. It's our nature to try and discover what causes an episode of afib, but for the most part, it's a shot in the dark. For the 6 years I had diagnosed afib, some episodes seemed to be caused by having two beers. Not one, but two. The only trigger I could identify. However, out of the 192 episodes that I documented, maybe 5-10% could be connected to two drinks. So was alcohol a trigger? Maybe, but certainly not significant, but maybe being dehydrated and it being exacerbate by the alcohol was the trigger. Many are convinced that they have discovered triggers, and that could be exactly right, but I would speculate that many are incorrect.

It's not triggers that created our afib, that's something else, genes or ? Once we have it, knowing what might trigger it can be helpful (possibly fewer episodes), but the afib will not go away unless ablated, and that's not a sure thing either.

Barb,

My intermittent fasting is very simple: I only eat in a 6-8 hour window every day. Which means, basically, I have lunch and dinner. That's technically an 18/6 or 16/8 intermittent fast. Every once in a while, a couple of times a year, I'll do 4-5 days of fasting. A typical day will include no grain products and no dairy, but that's not every day. Hell, I had sushi last night. Totally agree with Carey not to give up everything you love.

Lowering carbs, at least for me, worked better gradually. I started by simply eliminating stuff with added sugar and limiting refined flour, white rice, and potatoes, with a goal of 100-150g of carbs a day. That was easy. Then I got a bit more serious and cut out most all starch. With that, 50-100g per day is easy, and that's where I sit today.

An important note: I had to ramp down the carbs--and get used to it for almost a year--before 18/6 or 16/8 intermittent fasting became feasible. Before, I'd be too hungry all the time. Now, I'm not hungry at all until about 11AM. Many travel days I don't eat anything until dinner, and don't really miss it.

Again, this worked for me, but no guarantee it works for everyone. I'm an APOE3/4, so I'm highly, highly motivated to keep both carbs and saturated fat in check, and to ensure low blood sugar levels, as I really, really don't want to set off the Alzheimer's bomb. Probably best to get your genetics tested and see what works best for you. Good luck!

All the best,
Jason

Quote
Ken
It's our nature to try and discover what causes an episode of afib, but for the most part, it's a shot in the dark. For the 6 years I had diagnosed afib, some episodes seemed to be caused by having two beers. Not one, but two. The only trigger I could identify. However, out of the 192 episodes that I documented, maybe 5-10% could be connected to two drinks. So was alcohol a trigger? Maybe, but certainly not significant, but maybe being dehydrated and it being exacerbate by the alcohol was the trigger. Many are convinced that they have discovered triggers, and that could be exactly right, but I would speculate that many are incorrect.

I think this is exactly how it goes. I can't count how many people I've seen decide that ____ is a trigger because they ate/drank/did that thing and had an episode -- one single time. I've done it myself. At various times I was convinced that coffee, alcohol, MSG, exercise, lack of exercise, and a dozen other things were triggers. So I decided I would take a more scientific approach and actually test them. I gave up all alcohol for a month. It made no difference. I gave up coffee for a week. It made no difference. I actually went to the store, bought MSG, and swallowed a teaspoon of the stuff on an empty stomach. It had no effect. Pretty much almost everything I tested fell by the wayside as a coincidence.

In the end, I found only two reliable triggers: low potassium levels and dehydration (which can be one and the same). Absolutely nothing else I investigated panned out. So I just quit looking for triggers because it's too easy to find false positives.

Interesting points made about triggers, which I hadn't considered. I was just always afraid of caffeine and alcohol after a few of my episodes were linked to those things. I would say that if it happened much more frequently when consuming something, and not having an episode when you don't, that would be a better correlation.

I remember when I used to get Afib every day...and it had become twice/day....but I could make it stop. Just not keep it from coming. I would take a very brisk walk, and then it was almost as if I clicked into gear, I would feel my pulse and at a certain point, go back into NSR. I mentioned this to a local EP, who said, "that's probably a coincidence". However, since I had Afib so frequently, and the walking stopped it EVERY time (at that point, it was probably over 800 times as I had Afib for quite a few years, daily), I decided he was not the EP for me. When you can duplicate results that many times, it isn't a coincidence!

Barb

I don't doubt that for a moment. Finding the things that can stop your afib is a whole different story. You can find those and use them to your benefit.