Welcome to the Afibber’s Forum
Our 18th Year Online!
Moderated by: Shannon Dickson


Afibbers Home Afibbers Forum General Health Forum
Afib Resources Afib Database Vitamin Shop


Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile

Advanced

Rough nights sleep irregular beats why

Posted by SteveDaley 
Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 21, 2018 05:09PM
Yesterday some friends i hadn't seen in a while dropped by and were staying the night. at 7 we had pizza i had 3 pieces with several toppings and at about 1030 went to bed
at about 100 in morning woke up feeling like i was having skipped beats not afib but i was hoping it wouldn't become that but now it sets off my mind and creates anxiety
and i am now taking my blood pressure and with my Kardia device checking EKG to see if it is the dreaded afib. What is worse the anxiety which now makes it tough to get back to sleep of the afib itself. Today i played golf even though i had rough night and was with brother who said he gets that sometimes but there is nothing you can do about it so forget it. I just can't seem to do it I worry and that is the worst. Is it bad to eat the pizza or what did I do wrong and does anyone else experience this problems thanks Steve
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 22, 2018 09:15AM
Steve - Typically pizza has a high sodium content....and if you were already low in potassium,
that imbalance can cause PACs... because potassium is the mineral/electrolyte that helps regulate
the time between beats.. (refractory period). Sodium dominates over potassium. No alcohol was involved?

So focus on plenty of potassium-containing foods today and at the same time, be mindful of your
sodium intake as well. Then... work out a daily plan to be sure you are consuming plenty of those
potassium-containing foods every day.

The RDI for potassium is 4700 mg daily and not everyone meets that number.
When I don't, I add potassium gluconate or citrate. This would be especially important
when eating commercially-prepared food because it's all typically over-salted.

It could be something else, but the high sodium in the pizza is so typical, that it's likely the culprit.

Jackie
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 22, 2018 06:44PM
Thanks Jackie maybe i should go and get some Potassium Gluconate at the vitamin shoppe. I will also look for some potassium containing foods.
Weather here today was great 70s and played golf. Hope everything is going well with you thanks for you reply Steve
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 22, 2018 09:32PM
Obtaining potassium without supplements is trivially simple and obtaining potassium via supplements is actually rather difficult since supplements are limited to 99 mg per dose by law in the US, which is less than the potassium contained in 1/4th of a banana. Don't waste your money on potassium supplements.

Roughly in order of potassium content:

Low-sodium V8 juice
Coconut water
Potatoes, especially sweet potatoes, and especially with skins
Fruits, especially citrus fruits
Leafy green vegetables
Nuts and legumes

The list is endless and tasty. You don't need supplements.
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 22, 2018 10:02PM
While my diet gives me about 3.5 g potassium a day (mostly from leaves and nuts), I also supplement. I buy potassium bicarbonate in bulk - it is used in home brewing and winemaking. For the brand I use <[nuts.com], 1 tsp is about 6 g. Since the molar mass of potassium is 39 and the pot. bicarb is 100, this yields around 2.3 grams of potassium per tsp. I just dump in water, stir and drink. Of course all the usual warnings about having good kidneys should be heeded before you supplement. I've taken up to 8 grams of potassium/day (about 20.5 g of the bicarb) without issue - doesn't mean you should.

Especially when I'm doing a 5 or longer day fast (I water fast 5 days out of every 14), I aim for 5 g of potassium as bicarb, or a little more than 2 tsps. This is because potassium has a protein sparing effect.

Again not suggesting others do this, but it is one of my biohacks.
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 22, 2018 10:15PM
George:

You obtain your potassium from "leaves and nuts" sorry but I needed a little levity, it just struck me funny, what kind of nut trees do you have. I just never heard of eating leaves.

Liz
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 23, 2018 08:57AM
Hi Steve -

Take the time to assess your daily intake from potassium containing foods…( a list/diary) and then make an effort to add more every day if you’re low.

You can use the supplemental potassium in cases where you eat out when foods tend to have high sodium added because at that moment, you can’t eat enough potassium foods on the spot to counteract the imbalance… but overall,
it’s important to get in the habit of getting potassium from foods.

Caveat: If you use a LS Veggie juice…be sure it’s organic …otherwise, you trade a bunch of pesticide residues for the good the additional potassium provides. Same with other fresh, high-content K… try for organic from USA farms.


Glad you are enjoying your great weather. I'm 'jealous.'
Be well,
Jackie
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 23, 2018 12:39PM
Quote
Elizabeth
George:

You obtain your potassium from "leaves and nuts" sorry but I needed a little levity, it just struck me funny, what kind of nut trees do you have. I just never heard of eating leaves.

Liz

Ha Ha Ha LIz!

I eat macadamia, pecan, walnut, hazelnut, pistachio. Leaves = spinach, chard, kale, radicchio, arugula, beet leaves & more like this. Also broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus etc.

Quote
Jackie
Caveat: If you use a LS Veggie juice…be sure it’s organic …otherwise, you trade a bunch of pesticide residues for the good the additional potassium provides. Same with other fresh, high-content K… try for organic from USA farms.

The potassium in LS veggie juice comes from added potassium chloride. It is really no different than adding potassium chloride yourself. You can add this to any food/drink you want as it is readily available in the salt section of the supermarket as "salt substitute." Read the label as "lite salt" is a 50/50 mix of sodium and potassium chloride.

Personally, I use the bicarb instead of the chloride, as I like the added bicarb (and just put it in water).
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 23, 2018 01:06PM
Hi George - The organic veggie juice I use is RW Knudsen's...Low Sodium - Very Veggie which it is all veggie ingredients...no supplemental K is added. The natural potassium is 530 mg in 8 oz... although they do add 90 mg sodium for taste... but I don't drink 'gallons' of that. My food intake isn't huge so I do rely on supplemental K either potassium gluconate or citrate as well.

Jackie
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 23, 2018 02:16PM
George:

I meant no disrespect, I think very highly of what you post, I just have a peculiar sense of humor. It just struck me funny that you were eating leaves, I could picture harvesting leaves off a tree. I really knew what you meant and all of those nuts and leaves that you are eating sound great, I too eat many of those.

Liz
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 23, 2018 06:36PM
Hi LIz,

No offense taken!

Cheers,

George
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 24, 2018 04:39AM
George, you mean you sometimes/regularly fast for FIVE DAYS IN A ROW?? Does your extraordinary will power know no bounds??!! On a more serious note, could anyone do that safely if they wanted to, or would one have to 'train' up to it - including keto-only diet?
I think I'm doing well 'fasting' from 7pm until midday the following day! At present I have 2 meals per day - 1 at noon and one at 6-30pm - always protein and vegetables. Caved in yesterday evening and ate 2 popadoms though...! I'm determined to do away with carbs but soon start getting headaches when I do, although I guess that's something I just have to work through.
Best regards,
Mike
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 24, 2018 01:29PM
Quote
mwcf
George, you mean you sometimes/regularly fast for FIVE DAYS IN A ROW?? Does your extraordinary will power know no bounds??!! On a more serious note, could anyone do that safely if they wanted to, or would one have to 'train' up to it - including keto-only diet?
I think I'm doing well 'fasting' from 7pm until midday the following day! At present I have 2 meals per day - 1 at noon and one at 6-30pm - always protein and vegetables. Caved in yesterday evening and ate 2 popadoms though...! I'm determined to do away with carbs but soon start getting headaches when I do, although I guess that's something I just have to work through.
Best regards,
Mike

Hey Mike,

I look at fasting as an extension of a ketogenic diet. At some point, one would need to "keto adapt" for the body to start making ketones to offset the lack of glucose. If you think about it, there are 3 fuel storage tanks in the body - glucose (glycogen in both liver storage which can be used for the brain and muscle glycogen which can be used locally for the muscles, muscle protein and fat. Don't remember the number exactly, but glycogen storage is something around 1500 calories, protein 22,000 and fat can be much higher - 50,000 calories in a thin person and in the 100's of thousands of calories in a fat person. The way most fuel, they are frequently refilling the small (glycogen) tank and never accessing the larger (fat) tank. Because of this, the ketone system is in mothballs for most and the enzyme systems need to be up regulated for them to work. This does take time.

I suggest doing this adaptation slowly, especially as an afibber. When you severely restrict carbs or fast, insulin levels plummet. Insulin signals the kidneys to retain sodium, so when insulin levels drop to a low level, the kidneys can excrete a lot of sodium, to the point that potassium will be excreted, too. There is thought this is a primary cause of "keto-flu." Hence keeping all electrolytes up, including sodium, but also potassium and magnesium is imperative to avoid keto-flu. Keto-flu can be unpleasant for a non-afibber, but the electrolyte imbalance can instigate an afib episode in an afibber. It did in me in 2009 when I adapted (and I've remained adapted since). I did not have the understanding for sodium supplementation in this circumstance then.

I wrote about the rationale for my cyclical five day fasting experiment here: <[www.afibbers.org] also chatted with Dr. Mercola about it here <[articles.mercola.com] .

First, Mike, a 17 hour daily fast is excellent! Here is an interview where they discuss that a 14 or more hour daily fast starting before 8PM reduced repeat incidence of breast cancer in survivors: <[www.foundmyfitness.com] Also 2 discussions about circadian rhythm with Dr. Satchin Panda at Scripps: <[www.foundmyfitness.com] and <[www.foundmyfitness.com]

Volek and Phinney's book talks a lot about proper electrolyte supplementation <[www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com]

Toronto Nephrologist, Jason Fung, has treated many people with fasting with his clinic. Here is his book: <[www.amazon.com] and he's written something like 30 blog posts on the topic: <[idmprogram.com]

This is a post on keto-flu: <[www.dietdoctor.com]

I would slowly keto adapt by slowly reducing carbs and consistently doing the 17 hour fasts daily. Then I might try extending the fast to 23 or 24 hours. After that was working well maybe extending the fast to ~36 hours and so on. Fasting is like anything else, you get better with practice (and the body adapts).

Let me know if you want more info.

Cheers,

George



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2018 10:18PM by GeorgeN.
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 24, 2018 08:13PM
I have fasted 7 days with endurance exercise during 6 of those. It’s possible, but not necessarily fun.

Currently, I eat only one meal per day. Usually in the evenings. My exercise regimen is late morning to mid-day, so I’m pretty well fasted by then.

I’m certain a certified “nutritionist” would reel backwards in horror at my routine, but I don’t care. We all have to find what works for us. I used to eat 3 square meals a day and count calories to the recommended 2000. I weighed 275+ lbs. To hell with that.
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 25, 2018 01:19PM
George,

Many thanks for all of that good info - MUCH appreciated. Fascinating about the 3 fuel tanks! I don't know about the student becoming the master, but if I can get half way form where I am now to you, I would be very pleased! I'll keep at it as you advise George.

I do have quite a social life so even getting half-way to where you are will be a helluva challenge, but it is made easier by the fact that my other half who is a surgeon is also well on the way to/very interested in keto. I suppose ideally we'd like to go strict for 5 days of the week and let it slip a wee bit at the weekend but I'm figuring that would to no small extent just undo the good work done during the week.... She certainly wouldn't readily give up her 2 small glasses of red wine after a 6 or 7 hour operating list... The cutting out sugar/carbs is far less of a problem as we both love fish/meat and veggies as well as eggs, cheese and nuts.

Thank you again George and wishing you and yours all the very best - same to wolfpack too!

Mike



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2018 01:20PM by mwcf.
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 25, 2018 10:48PM
Quote
mwcf
George,

Many thanks for all of that good info - MUCH appreciated. Fascinating about the 3 fuel tanks! I don't know about the student becoming the master, but if I can get half way form where I am now to you, I would be very pleased! I'll keep at it as you advise George.

I do have quite a social life so even getting half-way to where you are will be a helluva challenge, but it is made easier by the fact that my other half who is a surgeon is also well on the way to/very interested in keto. I suppose ideally we'd like to go strict for 5 days of the week and let it slip a wee bit at the weekend but I'm figuring that would to no small extent just undo the good work done during the week.... She certainly wouldn't readily give up her 2 small glasses of red wine after a 6 or 7 hour operating list... The cutting out sugar/carbs is far less of a problem as we both love fish/meat and veggies as well as eggs, cheese and nuts.

Thank you again George and wishing you and yours all the very best - same to wolfpack too!

Mike

Hi Mike,

Other thoughts. The wine in that quantity should not be an issue onece adapteed. Dry reds being much better from a carb perspective.

If you can, eating when the sun is out is better from a circadian rhythm perspective. Weighting your consumption of food toward the beginning of the day and skipping the evening meal is also the most ideal, though I eat my one meal late in the day. If you don't reduce the weight you want with your current program, try eating your protein first thing early in the day. Also getting sun exposure without glasses/contacts in the first hour of daylight and at midday too is good. Jack Kruse, a neurosurgeon, expounds on this at great length. He is convinced if you get the light right, everything else will follow. Likewise, he thinks taking call for him bad as the OR is a toxic environment, especially in the wee hours when a lot of catastrophic cases happen. Lots of blue light, radiation and so on. He wears glasses with a coating that block light <490 nm indoors and removes them outside to protect from the blue spectrum, but does want UV A&B, plus red when he is outside.
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 26, 2018 07:26AM
Thank you for the additional info George - fascinating about the light.

Just tucking into a midday bowl of steamed veggies with pecan nuts and CP virgin OO - and I'm eating it in my office which has a south facing full wall window to the side with the sun streaming in!! I'm definitely going to work up to one meal per day for at least the 5 weekdays - likely later in the day like you as I find it easier skipping brunch than supper! My other half will be pleased to learn that her modest red wine intake will continue to be OK!!

Kind regards,

Mike
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
January 26, 2018 03:03PM
Hi George - Congratulations! So now you're 'famous' with that very extensive Mercola interview.
It's great to have that documented. I went to the link you provided and read a bit but there's a lot there
and haven't finished. Important information so thanks for sharing!

Jackie
Re: Rough nights sleep irregular beats why
February 05, 2018 08:09PM
Similarly, I went into what seemed to be svt (or just a really heavy dose of PVCs and PACs) yesterday while watching the super bowl. And I think it had to do with eating a ton of carbs (getting bloated) and simultaneously drinking alcohol. I try not to drink too often anymore, and don't typically go into arrhythmias. However, I notice that when I do it seems to be when I am either A: Super bloated feeling and have alcohol in me B: Haven't eaten in way too long and am likely just too dehydrated ...

Somewhere in between and I seem to be okay with alcohol up to a certain extent. However, this time we had eaten til stuffed, had been drinking on and off with little other liquids for about 5 hours, and I had a small amount of marijuana as well. That said, I do believe it was the alcohol that caused me to go into arrhythmia as I've had similar instances with it before.

Just my two cents. I've heard of of other people getting triggered by large meals as well, though am not sure the exact science behind it It was like I couldn't stop burping. The amount of bloat I had was insane, and I really think it contributed to the irregular beats. It was like I couldn't stop belching!

Regarding the original post, I have stopped eating a lot of carbs and even high calorie foods near bed time, and that seems to have helped. If I do eat something full of carbs and or low glycemic, I try to make sure it is at least two hours prior to bed. I find taking a brief walk helps kick start the digestion process as well. But I tend to notice too much food in my stomach close to bed (as well as sleeping on my stomach) can be a trigger for me. Can also cause morning headaches or even migraines ... especially things like red meat late due to the amount of blood that is drawn to the stomach region in order to digest.

-Ryan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2018 08:18PM by RJS4.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login