Increasing Afib

I have had afib episodes pretty regularly every 6 months for the past 3 years. Usually the episodes would last about 12 hrs. But just over a week ago I began to have several short bursts of afib lasting maybe 1/2 minute or so but off and on throughout most of the day. It seems to come on after standing up from a sitting position, or just moving around. This has been going on every day for 8 days now. I have increased my magnesium and potassium but I'm not really sure if it is helping as this is continuing. I am wondering what is triggering my heart to keep fluttering like this so suddenly. I have been doing so well and am worried that this may continue to progress. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Don't know if hawthorn berry tea would help. Don't think it will hurt. I have about 1/2 liter/day. I chop them berries in half , add hawthorn herb, dandelion leaf, as well. Often i add other herbs too.
Really can't say it is efficacious but if enough people try it and can report some anecdotal success - who knows.

Hope you find something non pharmaceutical!

Amy - you are experiencing "postural hypotension" which means your blood pressure drops suddenly when you arise from sitting and that makes you light-headed and dizzy which sometimes can lead to falls. I've seen recommendations for adding supplemental potassium to help prevent this... however, I don't recall the dosing that would be appropriate.
How much potassium and magnesium are you taking?

I did quick search online - found this:
[academic.oup.com]

Jackie

I usually take 10 meq ex r potassium, which I now am taking 2 of those daily. Plus I drink V8 juice everyday. Now I am taking 600 mg bisglicinate magnesium daily. I don't get dizzy as much as out of breath when my heart does this. It doesn't only happen when I stand up, just seems more prevalent. I took my granddaughter to the park yesterday and I experienced bouts of afib off and on the whole time we were there. It is hard looking after a 2 yr old when you are in afib. It seems like it'll keep doing this and then at some point I will go back into regular rhythm for the rest of the day.

Could be low blood volume - getting enough (sodium) salt and water could help <[www.afibbers.org]

Also POTS <[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

My symptoms do sound very similar to low blood volume. I also have had hot flashes for over 10 yrs. and I have felt that my heart issues are related to that. I have noticed that my adrenal system is way overactive. I am going to try the increased water and a little more salt, which I have been avoiding. Thank you so much for the info!

Amy, yes, as George recommends, also try adding a bit more salt. Adrenal issues and especially if you have been in a high stress mode for any length of time, all plays into these symptoms you are experiencing. It typically takes testing and time to get it all balanced out properly.

Jackie

What kind of testing do you suggest? I really dont seem to get any help from my doctors, but if i ask for certain tests they will usually do them.

Amyorca:

Have you had your potassium level checked to see if you need extra Potassium? A few years ago i added a potassium supplement and I started getting short runs of AF during the day, i am vagal and didn't get AF during the day. I quit taking the potassium and the runs of AF stopped. My Potassium level is good so I didn't need any extra Potassium. Hope you are doing good.

Liz

I have wondered how much potassium I should be taking. I will ask my doctor to check my magnesium and potassium levels. Is there an at home test I can buy? The afib seems to be calming down the last few days. I have increased my magnesium. Not sure why this is happening but I will reduce the potassium to see if that helps.

Amy - the most important thing to add is the magnesium... consistently and don't stop. The bowel tolerance issue governs how much you tolerate regularly and comfortably.

If you are low on magnesium and add potassium, that can make it worse. The solid base of magnesium is important. You can get plenty of potassium through food choices once you reach the magnesium bowel tolerance levels.

Now, some people are reactive to too much potassium from food as well. Check the archives for posts by Tom C who had that experience. He introduced the Cardymeter to our group and wrote about it in the Conference Room Session 74 here: [www.afibbers.org]

The adrenal issues take time to regulate and stabilize. If you can see a physician who has advanced training in restorative or functional medicine, there are very definitive tests that show what needs to be supported by added nutrients.
If you have a high-stress profile, then that tends to prolong treatment support. I had that problem over 20 years ago and still take the adrenal support nutrients. Sodium is important yet you have to get the dosing in the proper range for your adrenal system needs.

Jackie

Be aware that the Cardymeter is a pretty outdated device now. The newer HORIBA LAQUAtwin (horrible name) is much smaller, simpler and easier to use.

Good to know, Carey. Do you know if the screening tolerance range as close as the Cardymeter?

I just did a quick search at the Periodic Paralysis website and saw this:

Quote:
For those who still own or use the Cardy C-131, the directions are below. The sensors on the older Cardy meters, those produced 10-15 years ago, were more reliable than newer ones. The Cardy C-131 cannot be considered entirely reliable any longer. The newer meter, the Laqua Twin, is totally unreliable and should not be relied on as a testing device.
[hkpp.org]

Since they are pricey, it would certainly be important to investigate thoroughly the reliability of whatever device one would choose to buy. I have no personal experience, just followed what TomC has offered over the past several years and how it helped him manage keeping dietary potassium in range.

Jackie

I don't have the specs for either device so can't say.

I don't know what they're basing their statement on about the Laqua being unreliable. When I first obtained mine, I validated it by doing the following:

1. Go to lab, have bloods drawn.
2. Walk back out to car and immediately use Laqua to test saliva. This happened within 2-3 minutes of the blood draw.
3. Compare results when lab report received.

I did this 5 times and the Laqua was within .4 of the lab values every time. That's not even a clinically significant difference so the results can be considered identical. I repeated this test several more times over the course of the two years I used it just to make sure it remained accurate, which it did.

I see two problems with their opinion. First, testing saliva is a surrogate for testing actual plasma levels so can only be considered an estimate to begin with. Looking for accuracy down to multiple decimal points is silly and pointless. We're not doing chemistry here; we're doing medicine with all the fuzziness medicine involves. Hell, you won't even get identical numbers if you give the same sample to two labs.

Second, based on posts I've seen in various places from people using the Laqua and the Cardy, many people seem to think calibration only has to be done now and then. That's not true at all. Calibration has to be repeated immediately before every single test. If you don't calibrate every time, the numbers you get can be considered random nonsense.

So based on my results, I reject their opinion of the Laqua. I find it particularly suspect since they provided no basis for it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2017 09:28PM by Carey.

Thanks Carey for the explanation. Your results seem the best possible check on the reliability factor.
Lots of inconvenience, but definitely well worth the effort so thanks for sharing.
Good point to emphasize the calibration factor ever time.

Jackie

So I stopped taking potassium 4 days ago and I am still getting many short bursts of afib. I have increased the mount of magnesium. It seems that they are predominant in the morning after I wake up. Yesterday I had at least a dozen episodes before 10 in the morning. Then it just switched and I didn't have any the rest of the day. Again they have started today. I wish i knew what was going on. This has been going on for over 3 weeks now. I have a requisition for a lab test but will have to wait until Monday as it is a holiday here. I have a hard time functioning while these afib episodes are happening.

Well, this morning I went from short bursts of afib into a full blown episode. I took another magnesium and 1/2 a 12mg. Metropol and 1/2 60 mg diltiazam. Thankfully my heat rate has come down a bit but I am still in arrhythmia.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2017 05:32PM by amyorca.

I don't quite understand why you reduced your potassium intake, but it's extremely unlikely to help and extremely likely to do exactly the opposite. The evidence you have before you seems to confirm that.

Because a couple of people suggested that may be the potassium was responsible for the change in my heart rate. I really don't know what I should do at this point.

I stayed in bed all day and finally converted to NSR around 6:30 pm. So I was in afib for 7 hrs. Maybe this will reset these constant short bursts of afib. It all seems like a guessing game. I can't function when I am going through this. I am trying to run my own businesses and deal with life. I just want a solution. I can't even get into seeing my cardiologist until January. Sorry, now just venting....



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2017 10:53PM by amyorca.

Amyorca;

Don't you take any anti-arrhythmic drugs, at least when you get any episode of AF, as a "pill in a pocket" to as least shorten your episodes.

Liz

I have been wondering about the drug Flacinide that people on the board have talked about. I have just been given metoprolol and diltiazem.

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amyorca
I stayed in bed all day and finally converted to NSR around 6:30 pm. So I was in afib for 7 hrs. Maybe this will reset these constant short bursts of afib. It all seems like a guessing game. I can't function when I am going through this. I am trying to run my own businesses and deal with life. I just want a solution. I can't even get into seeing my cardiologist until January. Sorry, now just venting....

That's okay. Vent away. We've all been there and understand.

So now you know your episodes are going to last about 7 hours and they won't kill you. That's the main thing you need to remember when it happens again.

Relax as best you can, take the metoprolol and diltiazem if you haven't yet, and wait for it to end. That's all you can do immediately.

In the meantime, whoever gave you the prescriptions for the metoprolol and diltiazem is still available to discuss the dosages, right? Adjusting those might help. Knowing how much more you can take during an episode would be helpful too.

Is the cardiologist you're seeing in January an electrophysiologist?

I haven't had clear directions on how much metoprolol and diltiazem to take. I have taken it enough though to know what will bring my heart rate down. My cardiologist is not an electrophysiologist. In fact, I have never heard of that. Now I will research this. I have to say that the only real help I have had is from this board. I am very grateful to have this resource.

About bringing down heart rate.

This was when i was in hospital with afib that wouldn't respond to the poisons they fed to me.
After a couple of days they took an ECG of the heart. This involved holding my breath in for some seconds and at other times holding my breath out for some seconds in order for the operator to get a good image of the heart.
When i was returned to my room i noticed on the monitor that my afib/heart rate was notably lower.
I mentioned that at the next visit by 3 doctors mentioning breathing at the ECG. The junior doctor piped up saying that there is a feedback from the lung but he was cut short by the chief doctor. The chief said that there is no relationship...

However, even though i've been free of afib (i think) for 2 years is till get a double beat or a missed beat feeling occasionally. When that comes on i change my breathing. Slow deep exhale and inhale and i feel it makes a difference.

Sorry, a bit long winded but i wonder if anybody else had that experience?

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Joe
After a couple of days they took an ECG of the heart. This involved holding my breath in for some seconds and at other times holding my breath out for some seconds in order for the operator to get a good image of the heart.

I believe you meant echocardiogram.

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amyorca
I haven't had clear directions on how much metoprolol and diltiazem to take.

It should say right on the prescription bottles.

Quote

My cardiologist is not an electrophysiologist. In fact, I have never heard of that. Now I will research this.

An electrophysiologist is a cardiologist who specializes in the electrical systems of the heart and arrhythmias. That is absolutely who anyone with afib needs to be seeing. Find the best one you can and ditch the useless cardiologist you have.

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Carey

After a couple of days they took an ECG of the heart. This involved holding my breath in for some seconds and at other times holding my breath out for some seconds in order for the operator to get a good image of the heart.

I believe you meant echocardiogram.

Yes.

I will take all your suggestions to heart (pun not intended). Thank you. I've been in NSR since I converted the day before yesterday. I wish I could understand why my heart goes from afib to completely relaxed and beating normally. Definitely not anything that I did!

I got my labs done yesterday. These are the results. Any red flags that would show why I have increased afib?

Component Results
Component Your Value Standard Range Flag
Magnesium 2.1 mg/dL 1.5 - 2.6 mg/dL

Component Results
Component Your Value Standard Range Flag
Na 140 mmol/L 135 - 145 mmol/L
K 4.5 mmol/L 3.6 - 5.3 mmol/L
Cl 103 mmol/L 98 - 109 mmol/L
CO2 32 mmol/L 21 - 28 mmol/L H
Anion gap w/o K 5 7 - 15 L
BUN 14 mg/dL 8 - 24 mg/dL
Creatinine 0.66 mg/dL 0.6 - 1.2 mg/dL


GFR non African Amer 90 mL/min >59 mL/min
GFR African American 109 mL/min >59 mL/min
Glucose 129 mg/dL 65 - 120 mg/dL H
Calcium 10.0 mg/dL 8.5 - 10.5 mg/dL