nattokinase debate

Hi all,

Found this online just now arguing about nattokinase - I aren't sure what to make of it all to be honest. I just followed Dean's example and bought 48 tubs of natto food and now I aren't sure (and please Dean no disresepect intended fella) whether I'd be doing the right thing eating it!

[www.cureality.com]

What do you guys think?? Can nattokinase survive in the stomach even when enteric-coated? The doc on the following website says absolutely not and that's why fibrolytic/enzyme products are always given intravenously. Also, can it really actually do harm breaking up small 'protective' clots in the brain??

As an aside, which of the current crop of AC meds is the one to go for?? I'm figuring it will be one of the newer ones rather than warfarin yes?

Best regards,

Mike F

Hi Mike -

The following may help you decide about the merits and benefits of nattokinase which has a long history of safe and effective use to reduce blood viscosity by degrading fibrin. Of course, if other factors that promote silent inflammation and hyperviscosity are not addressed as well, the results from NK alone may not be as effective….although eating the natural ‘natto food’ has proved protective for Asians over many generations.

Jackie

Statement by Dr. Holsworth on the properties of nattokinase:

Since my introduction of nattokinase as a safe and effective therapeutic modality into the clinical and hospital setting in 2002, I have been searching for a standardization of nattokinase that will allow health professionals to determine two important facts concerning the use of nattokinase;

1. Biochemical validation that the substance is nattokinase, specificity

2. Accurate determination of fibrinolytic activity in vitro, sensitivity

The previous standardization of nattokinase identified activity in fibrinolytic degradation units (FUs). Unfortunately, the test does not validate whether the enzyme is in fact, nattokinase. Any proteolytic enzyme (bromelain, papain, fungal enzymes) tested using this test would erroneously report fibrinolytic activity or the ability to degrade cross-linked fibrin.

Many companies manufactured, produced and falsely identified their bulk and/or finished retail products as "nattokinase" based upon a false identification of FUs activity. Can you imagine a physician prescribing insulin that was not truly insulin or the units of the insulin were incorrect? Many patients' lives depend upon securing a valid form of nattokinase and accurate determination of its activity because they do not have a pharmaceutical drug such as an anti-coagulant that they can tolerate and/or is effective in the prevention of their condition of inadvertent blood formation.

In addition, the substrate utilized in the previously standardization for determining the activity was not soluble so activity determinations were inaccurate and not reproducible.

Dr. Hiroyuki Sumi, Ph.D., a medical researcher in thrombolytics who discovered nattokinase in the 1980's, has developed and published a new standardization method that validates not only the biochemical identification of the enzyme as nattokinase but also the activity or ability of nattokinase to degrade or lyse cross-linked fibrin in International Units. Now, physicians and patients are insured that they are receiving authentic nattokinase in a stable and quantified amount of activity to address various medical indications.

Dr. Ralph Holsworth
Nattokinase Pioneer & Researcher

Source: [www.pureprescriptions.com]

Also:
New Nattokinase Information

1. CK utilizes a new standardization for fibrinolytic activity which is more sensitive and specific to nattokinase activity. Originally, the Fibrin Unit (FU) method was created for the sake of convenience. Because fibrin, which is insoluble in water, is used as the substrate, accurate measurement of the enzyme reaction is not possible through this method. Therefore, to accurately measure the potency of CK, International Units (IU) are required to quantify the results of the enzyme activity.

2. Cardiokinase® incorporates a new strain (“strain N”) of Bacilius Substilisin that produces higher activity than other strains. In particular, the cultured solution of the CK (N strain), displayed activity that was 17.9 times greater that of the control. Furthermore, fibrinolytic activity was also observed in the bacteria itself, and the activity on the N strain elevated to a level that was 70 times as much as the control. The therapeutic benefit of this type of activity on human cells is the promotion of the release of tissue-plasminogen activator (t-PA). t-PA is a protein involved in the breakdown of blood clots – it catalyzes the conversion of plasminogen to plasmin, the major enzyme responsible for clot breakdown.

3. In addition to t-PA, CK has demonstrated a new mechanism of action involving fibrinolytic pharmacokinetics. This new strain of nattokinase has shown for the first time that is has a higher kinin-producing capacity than plasma kininogen. The physiological activities of kinin (and its products like bradykinin) include lowering blood pressure, promotion of capillary permeability, local vasodilation, smooth muscle contraction, promotion of lymph flow, and inflammatory modulation. This kinin-producing activity is involved in the circulatory systems of all internal organs.
Cardiokinase's hypotensive and circulation-improving effects have the potential to replace other more invasive and ADR-promoting medications in the conventional and alternative marketplace.

4. Another novel characteristic of CK is its anti-viscogenic effect. No other natural substance has demonstrated the ability to quantitatively lower blood viscosity as CK has. The applications of this attribute alone make CK one of the most useful therapies in even the most serious cardiovascular conditions.

5. Lastly, unlike other commercial sources of nattokinase, Cardiokinase® incorporates a non-corn source of maltodextrin, making it the most hypoallergenic source of nattokinase on the market.

The advantages of improved circulation are self-evident. Applications for CK can be elucidated paying special consideration to its fibrinolytic activity and anti-viscogenic effect. From cosmetics to heart and brain health, improved blood flow is a ubiquitous benefit for the human body.



Effects of nattokinase, a pro-fibrinolytic enzyme, on red blood cell aggregation and whole blood viscosity.
Source: Clin Hemorheol Microcirc. 2006;35(1-2):139-42. PMID: 16899918
Author(s): Eszter Pais, Tamas Alexy, Ralph E Holsworth, Herbert J Meiselman

Abstract:
The vegetable cheese-like food, natto, is extremely popular in Japan with a history extending back over 1000 years. A fibrinolytic enzyme, termed nattokinase, can be extracted from natto; the enzyme is a subtilisin-like serine protease composed of 275 amino acid residues and has a molecular weight of 27.7 kDa. In vitro and in vivo studies have consistently demonstrated the potent pro-fibrinolytic effect of the enzyme. However, no studies to date have evaluated the effects of nattokinase on various hemorheological parameters and thus we have begun to assess the effects of the enzyme on RBC aggregation and blood viscosity. Blood samples were incubated with nattokinase (final activities of 0, 15.6, 31.3, 62.5 and 125 units/ml) for 30 minutes at 37 degrees C. RBC aggregation was measured using a Myrenne MA-1 aggregometer and blood viscosity assessed over 1-1000 s(-1) with a computer controlled scanning capillary rheometer (Rheolog).

Our in vitro results showed a significant, dose-dependent decrease of RBC aggregation and low-shear viscosity, with these beneficial effects evident at concentrations similar to those achieved in previous in vivo animal trials. Our preliminary data thus indicate positive in vitro hemorheological effects of nattokinase, and suggest its potential value as a therapeutic agent and the need for additional studies and clinical trials.
Article Published Date : Jan 01, 2006

Abstract Title:
Nattokinase: An Oral Antithrombotic Agent for the Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease.
Source: Int J Mol Sci. 2017 Feb 28 ;18(3). Epub 2017 Feb 28. PMID: 28264497
Author(s): Yunqi Weng, Jian Yao, Sawyer Sparks, Kevin Yueju Wang

Abstract:
Natto, a fermented soybean product, has been consumed as a traditional food in Japan for thousands of years. Nattokinase (NK), a potent blood-clot dissolving protein used for the treatment of cardiovascular diseases, is produced by the bacterium Bacillus subtilis during the fermentation of soybeans to produce Natto.

NK has been extensively studied in Japan, Korea, and China. Recently, the fibrinolytic (anti-clotting) capacity of NK has been recognized by Western medicine. The National Science Foundation in the United States has investigated and evaluated the safety of NK. NK is currently undergoing a clinical trial study (Phase II) in the USA for atherothrombotic prevention. Multiple NK genes have been cloned, characterized, and produced in various expression system studies. Recombinant technology represents a promising approach for the production of NK with high purity for its use in antithrombotic applications.

This review covers the history, benefit, safety, and production of NK. Opportunities for utilizing plant systems for the large-scale production of NK, or for the production of edible plants that can be used to provide oral delivery of NK without extraction and purification are also discussed.
Article Published Date : Feb 27, 2017

Complete study [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Many thanks Jackie (-:

Shannon said that he was taking Natto when he had his stroke, i couldn't find the article in which he said that but he did say it.

The site that has this article about Natto is hosted by William Davis, the doctor who wrote Wheat Belly which Jackie has spoken glowingly about in past articles, I guess he doesn't like Natto.

Liz



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2017 04:11PM by Elizabeth.

Some afibbers seem to be a bit confused between the natto food and the nattokinase supplement. Some are abbreviating nattokinase to "natto" adding to the confusion.

I think to clarify the situation when we are talking about the actual natto food we should always add the "food" onto the end of natto.

For example, Elizabeth's post above states: "Shannon said that he was taking Natto when he had his stroke."

Was he taking nattokinase or was he eating the natto food? I know Shannon did eat the natto food.


Would this help?
Dean

Liz - In Shannon's case, the nattokinase most likely spared him from a worse stroke situation than it was. The Lariat procedure didn't seal off the LAA completely and the clot did develop and release into the blood stream. Without nattokinase, he may have developed a very large clot that could have caused even more significant damage or worse.
Thankfully, Shannon lived to tell his story.

In 2015, I commented in this post that Dr. Davis wasn't well versed on nattokinase. Apparently, he hasn't progressed.
[www.afibbers.org] He does do a decent job explaining the risks of gluten sensitivity for some individuals, though.

The cardiologist I like to mention is Thomas E. Levy, MD JD who writes the most useful health information on a variety of important topics and many informative books plus YouTube clips.
Some of his book are:
Death by Calcium
Curing the Incurable
Stop America's #1 Killer
Primal Panacea

Jackie

Exactly what i thought, Dean. Confusing and i'm confused.

Also wonder about taking isolating substances. For example Lycopenes isolated and as in food as a tomato.
[nutritionfacts.org]

Quote
Dean
Some afibbers seem to be a bit confused between the natto food and the nattokinase supplement. Some are abbreviating nattokinase to "natto" adding to the confusion.

I think to clarify the situation when we are talking about the actual natto food we should always add the "food" onto the end of natto.

For example, Elizabeth's post above states: "Shannon said that he was taking Natto when he had his stroke."

Was he taking nattokinase or was he eating the natto food? I know Shannon did eat the natto food.


Would this help?
Dean

Dean,

Shannon was taking the supplement, not the food. I know as he called me and we talked about it right after it happened.

"* I was on Cardiokinase at 100mg 3x/day, which is the most potent form of Nattokinase, when I had my small stroke. While concerning, its quite possible that if my stroke was due to necrotic debris from my previously closed LAA for some months, during which obvious necrosis would have taken place, and then upon the leak opening up and re-establishing blood flow between the LAA and Left atrium some of this necrotic debris could well have washed out of the remnant LAA pouch and gone right to the brain. "
<[www.afibbers.org]

Full story: <[afibbers.org]

George

Jackie:

You said:

Liz - In Shannon's case, the nattokinase most likely spared him from a worse stroke situation than it was. The Lariat procedure didn't seal off the LAA completely and the clot did develop and release into the blood stream. Without nattokinase, he may have developed a very large clot that could have caused even more significant damage or worse.
Thankfully, Shannon lived to tell his story:

Read Shannons' words:

If so, there is no surety that any blood thinner, including warfarin or the NOACS, would have been as effective in preventing such a necrotic debris based CVA as they generally might be with a more typical thrombi-embolic origin stroke. It is also true that my stroke could have been due to thrombi-embolic debris as well, since this origin has been confirmed as a risk from late leaks in previously surgically ligated LAAs.

In any event, while we cannot quite say for sure that Cardiokinase/Nattokinase is not helpful in such strokes, and I do think it has real merit, even if not to the level required to prevent a serious and direct stroke risk such as having an in-situ stroke generator suddenly open up inside your heart. It nevertheless needs to be said that this strong dose of Cardiokinase did not prevent my stroke, whatever the nature of the emboli.

As such, I would not recommend depending on it for anything more than mild to modest risks such as using it to reduce whole blood viscosity which is has been shown to do well with an average 20% reduction in whole blood viscosity at a 100mg dose 3x a day of Cardiokinase. And I do think from my own earlier experiences and anecdotal reports that it does indeed help make the blood more slippery and less likely for a fibrin based clot to form, I just can not recommend anyone who have a serious risk for thrombi-embolic events to go it along with Nattokinase or Cardiokinase and to strongly consider adding in a full Anti-coagulant drug such as Warfarin or Eliquis/Xeralto in such cases. At least until we better understand both the effects of Nattokinase in these kind of cases and these NOAC drugs as well. There may well be a role for combined therapy with greater knowledge of who both Nattokinase and warfarin or Eliquis work together.

Liz