What would you have done differently?

If you knew what you know now when you were 30, what changes would you have made to try and prevent your afib?

I ask because I'm 6"5 and have a family history of afib. I just had a 23andme done and found I have a 2 afib genes reported in ~20% of the population. Also MTHFR but APOE2/3. Since height and genetics are factors in afib onset, I'm statistically more likely to develop the disease. I've seen my aunt suffer multiple ablations/cardioversions/er visits and am trying to do everything I can to prevent having to go through that myself.

I was considering going vegan, but legumes gave me knee pain/brain fog, even with pressure cooking. I read Dr. Gundry's the Plant Paradox and I've been trying it but following that while limiting animal product is brutal. I've been eating a pound of mixed raw greens a day, along with olive oil and nonstarchy veggies, berries, nuts, it's insane. I've also been getting moderate amounts of exercise, as it seems too much or too little can be triggers for the disease. Meditation and stress control as well, since the flight/flight hormones wreak havoc on the cardiovascular system. I have no diseases currently, 28M, but did experience a few palpitations last Christmas while binging, which has never happened before. Don't plan on getting diabetes or heart disease, and losing weight currently slightly overweight, which is a BIG no no for the heart. I've done some fasting but worry about gallstones since I have some weight to lose. I'll probably follow a 16/8 or OMAD once I lower body fat, with weekly fasts once a month or something.

So would you guys have done the lifestyle changes I mentioned above? Did you lead a healthy lifestyle and afib happened anyways? Is there anything else you would have done that I didn't mention or is contraindicated with what I'm doing?

Thank you for reading!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2017 01:34PM by llmercll.

I think afib is a genetic disease. Although you can do things to hasten its arrival, I don't think there's much you can do to avoid it if you have the wrong genes. My mother and older sister both had persistent afib, so I think I was pretty much destined to get it too (in fact, I even got it at the exact same age my sister did). I've never been overweight, not diabetic, physically fit, drink in moderation, eat a reasonable diet, and wasn't hypertensive. So there wasn't much to change. I doubt if anything I could have done differently would have mattered.

Yes, there is such a thing as athlete's heart, and hardcore endurance athletes do tend to develop afib more frequently than the general population, but generally that applies to the extreme athletes who end up with enlarged, fibrotic atria from the prolonged stress they subject their heart to. I ride a bike about 100 miles per week, but that's not extreme.

Good luck with your diet but I'm extremely skeptical that any diet can prevent afib.

Carey might be right but i doubt it.
If afib is anything like alzheimers (well, both are chronic diseases) epigenetics come into play and diet among other factors are important - massively so.
The big question is, what is the optimum diet and life style for you? Not having alcohol, transfats, chemicals that kill your good gut biom e.g. Roundup residues might be a good start.

I got afib a bit over 2 years ago (i'm 67.5 now) and i think an imbalance of minerals combined with >2hrs high intensity gardening brought it on - who knows. Stopped consumption alcohol about 5 years prior.
Had the afib constantly for about 4 months (except for 1 hour after the first CV) average HR120 and peaking at<170.

Got advise from an integrative doctor which was some herbals and balancing fatty acids in my diet. Haven't had afib since as far as i can tell. Don't know if occasional double beats or occasional missed beats count as not being a type of afib?
Did have a 24hr monitor shortly after my 2nd CV and it showed 24 rapid beats at 2am while asleep.

Good luck and keep us informed!

llmercll – Welcome!

That’s a great question and extremely intuitive on your part, especially in light of what we know today about influences on gene function or expression.

I’m pleased that you had the 23andme testing so you know your areas of focus. The leaders in the rapidly-expanding field of Epigenetics (which is the study of how environmental influences work to turn genes on and off) are approaching this by various methods, one of which George N has referenced in his posts on his eating for Ketosis plan.

FYI... There is an archived report on the complications from very tall individuals and the condition pectus excavatum by Patrick Chambers, MD, who had afib and participated vigorously here in the early forum years… which may be useful. check here [www.afibbers.org]

For the arrhythmia ‘trend,’ there are several known influences that everyone needs to follow regarding the ratios of the core minerals aka electrolytes that affect cellular electrical conductivity including heart cells and a steady or irregular heartbeat. Testing of these minerals which include the key elements magnesium, calcium, potassium and sodium is important. Dietary intake of magnesium is typically found to be deficient; whereas, calcium which ‘opposes’ magnesium is in abundance and often detrimental as it overpowers magnesium. Similarly, while the body needs sodium for optimal function, too much blocks the function of potassium.

A key focus should be optimizing the shortfalls that testing reveals and learning what helps create magnesium deficiency since it’s commonly found as deficient in those with arrhythmia. This gets into the all-important lifestyle risk-factor management and the discipline of avoiding that which will influence negative genetic expression. And, rule #2 never take supplemental calcium.

As one example: alcohol is a risk factor for promoting AF because it damages heart cells and also depletes electrolytes including magnesium and potassium My first AF event was 22 years ago was after a very hot summer day on the golf course, probably dehydrated, and then partying at the club afterwards with pizza and red wine. My hindsight tells me that was a perfect setup for arrhythmia but back then, and probably even now, I didn’t hear from the cardiologists anything about electrolytes/minerals depletion and the AF connection. Nor was I ever questioned about taking supplemental calcium as was then and still is recommended to post-menopausal women to help keep bones strong. My own experiences and logic provided that enlightenment. If I took calcium supplements in the evening, eventually, the Afib would begin later on while I slept. On the nights I skipped it, no AF. Stopping the calcium also lengthened the time between events, but didn’t correct the problem because the magnesium deficiency had not been detected (yet) and I wasn't yet aware. Also, people eating a high calcium diet…ie lots of cheese and dairy products have noted the increased AF tendency....probably owing to the Mg deficiency also. (Calcium being excitatory/magnesium being relaxing).

So, as I’ve indicated in many posts on this topic, what promotes an AF event is often highly individualized but it also has some commonalities that can be addressed as initial, potential preventives. Success is more likely in determining those if you can work with a Functional Medicine practitioner who can order the specialized nutritional testing that goes far beyond routine labs. Often there are other imbalances that influence the functiionality of other systems and are more specialized than what’s typically covered in traditional lab tests. These would include testing for toxicities from heavy metals, dysbiosis of intestinal bacteria (good vs bad), food sensitivities, and environmental contaminants such as aluminum, fluoride, mercury, lead, PCBs, glyphosate… the list is very long and if found, then detoxification protocols follow… along with education on how to avoid.

Metabolic Testing examples: Genova Diagnostics, Boston Heart, Intracellular Diagnostics.
[exatest.com]
[www.gdx.net]
[www.bostonheartdiagnostics.com]

If I can help direct you to other links here or locate a FM practitioner in your area, let me know.
Glad to help.

Best to you,
Jackie

Jackie:

Your first event which you say was caused by partying with wine and pizza after a warm day on the golf course, you got AF but how many of the people at that event got AF? The AF problem is definitely in our genes, we don't know what event in our lives can trigger the onset of AF. My mother had AF, I have two brothers, neither one got AF the gene skipped them but got me. I think very stressful events in our lives might be the trigger, I always had a pretty good diet etc. but I had a couple of bad events in my life. My first AF event was triggered by too high an increase in my thyroid meds, however, the funny thing was when I got Graves disease my thyroid hormone was extremely high yet it didn't trigger AF.

Liz

Liz, do you mean TSH, T4, T3, rT3?
Interested because they suspected my afib was due to thyroid hormone imbalance.

Joe:
,
Yes, my first AF event was due to my taking too much of my thyroid drug (synthroid), you can get AF episodes if your TSH, T4 and T3 are either too much or too little of the thyroid hormone, played a big part in my AF episodes and still does.

Liz

thank you, Liz!

Quote
llmercll
I just had a 23andme done and found I have a 2 afib genes reported in ~20% of the population. Also MTHFR but APOE2/3. Since height and genetics are factors in afib onset, I'm statistically more likely to develop the disease. I've seen my aunt suffer multiple ablations/cardioversions/er visits and am trying to do everything I can to prevent having to go through that myself.


So would you guys have done the lifestyle changes I mentioned above? Did you lead a healthy lifestyle and afib happened anyways? Is there anything else you would have done that I didn't mention or is contraindicated with what I'm doing?

On 23andMe, my afib gene set (I'm making this up, but it is about right). 2 were known bad, 8 were known good and 14 were unknown. One of those was, "you are in the lowest risk for afib for white females" - I'm male. In any case hard predict on this and I do have afib. Tried to look at mine and compare to my two adult children, to see who might have my risk. Can't really tell. Maybe one of the bad genes but???

In my case, it was chronic endurance fitness that brought me to afib at 49. If I know what I know now, I'd have mitigated that. I'm still very active, but limit straight out long duration endurance activities. I do no cardio training beyond Tabatas. I do a fair amount of body weight training - TRX Military Fitness program & other body weight exercises. I would also add in a bunch more magnesium as that has been my ticket to staying in afib remission with very few breakthroughs in 13 years. I'm still fit. In a DEXA scan a few weeks ago, my body fat for all my limbs and torso were in the 1st percentile for my age. Also my T score for bone density is 0 (means I have the bone density of the mean of a 30 year old male).

I am a Gundry patient and do follow his plan very strictly, including the ApoE4 restrictions. Labs look spectacular, but can't say it makes any difference for my afib. I'm sure it does for overall health. My BP the other day was 100/60. I eat 1x/day in a 2 hour window on eating days. I fast 120 consecutive hours out of every 14 days, in addition. I also do a "super slow to failure" workout on the fifth fasting day of each cycle, adding to either "time under load" or "load" each time.


George



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2017 10:38AM by GeorgeN.

I wouldn't change a thing!

No a-fib in my family. Olympic level swimmer concluding in 1968 (Mexico City Games). A-fib (undiagnosed) started in 1995, diagnosed 6 years later, then a successful ablation 5 years later in 2006. Averaged 33 episodes per year for the last 5 years up until 2006, all documented. Since the ablation, only two a-fib breakthroughs in the last 11 years.

Moderate exercise including jogging, hiking, golf and weights since 1968. Social drinking, rarely more than 2 drinks at a time, but when I had a-fib, two drinks was a trigger, but that was maybe 10% of my a-fib episodes.

Now, I drink a glass of red wine daily, and beer socially, but take moderate amounts of magnesium, potassium and taurine daily, which has pretty much eliminated the occasional PAC/PVC's.

Life was and continues to be good! The 10 yrs of a-fib did not disrupt my lifestyle, just a little slower occasionally.

I'd do nothing differently, well maybe party harder as it was coming one way or another. Once you have it, it can take over your life so certainly don't let it beforehand. I wasted years worrying and the outcome was the same.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2017 09:56AM by Fibrillator.

Liz - I'm sure there are contributing genetic factors but I have or had a large ancestry of relatives and I am the first to have AF.... many of them lived into their 80's and 90's and that's when I was a youngster. Maternal grandmother was almost 105 when she died of just old age.

As is acknowledged now and as I mentioned, it's more about learning if you have any of the potential contributing genes and then make the dietary/lifestyle adjustments needed to help prevent the expression of the gene... as is now set forth in the field of Epigenetics. Many environmental factors are present now that weren't there 50 years ago and are undoubtedly contributing to unfavorable genetic expressions.

When I saw the study reference about a gene mutation that contributes to magnesium deficiency in 2015, I offered a post at this link: [www.afibbers.org]

That's just one element that could contribute to the arrhythmia tendency and as time goes on, I'm sure that more associations will surface if research bothers to make the effort to connect the dots to AF formally.

Jackie

limcerll,

Gave your question some more thought. If I knew what I know now and also knew I had a genetic risk, what would I do at age 30.

First, given a genetic risk, the biggest causes of afib:

metabolic issues (usually presents at age >60)
excess alcohol consumption ("Holiday Heart Syndrome.") (can present anytime)
chronic fitness (usually presents at age <60)
byproduct of a heart or lung operation (can't do anything about this)

I'd look at my older relatives with afib and see if they fit in any of these categories. If so, I'd pay most attention to mitigating those risks.

Metabolic issues and chronic fitness tend to be mutually exclusive to a point. There was a 30 year study done in Olmstead County MN (where the Mayo Clionic is located). Paroxysmal afibbers had a better life expectancy than non afibbers. The assumption is that these were afibbers who got there via chronic fitness. However, over time the afibbers got metabolic issues too. When I read that study ~10-12 years ago, I determined that was not going to be me.

How much effort you put into this depends on how much afib can impact your life. This is not knowable beforehand. I know a lawyer that went on total medical disability in his 40's because of afib. He was very adrenergic for a trigger and the stress of litigation would send him into a very high rate afib. If I could I would avoid that at all costs. The impact of afib in a person's life can range from very little to a lot (Shannon's dad who stroked out & died).

My children look at me, and because I've managed to keep afib relatively at bay with detraining from endurance activities and high dose magnesium, they don't pay too much attention. What they fail to appreciate is that I'm part of a small percentage that have been able to do this.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2017 11:01PM by GeorgeN.

George:

I have read a lot of your postings and know that you do a lot of fasting---there was a doctor on dr. Oz that claims he can cure/greatly help people with Alzheimers. He said to fast 12 hrs. everyday---6:00 pm. to 6:00 am., his diet was lots of vegetables, not too much meat---chicken, fish and some beef. My question is why is fasting so good for you?

Liz

Liz,

That is Dr. Dale Bredesen. I've met him a number of times and been at dinner with his wife and him several times. He is a great guy.

Haven't seen the Oz show, but his book is excellent.

As to fasting, there are a number of benefits. For what Dr. Bredesen is describing (and he would like people with the ApoE4 gene to fast more like 16 hours/day). There are some built in housekeeping and housecleaning programs in the brain and the body. The programs only activate when you don't eat for a period of time. Don't know if he mentioned it, but he'd also like you to finish eating 3-4 hours before bed for the same reason.

There are a lot more benefits to longer fasting, such as upregulating cellular autophagy and apoptosis.

There is more, but this is a quick summary.

George

George:

So if those "housecleaning programs" aren't activated what happens? I can't go that long without eating---a few hours before going to bed I do have a protein snack, after sleeping and having breakfast I probably don't have anything to eat for about 10 hours, thats all I can handle.

You had dinner with Dr. bredesen and his wife, George you are famous.

Liz

Liz,

At your age, you are probably fine to continue doing what you are doing. If it ain't broke...

This is a link to the show Liz is talking about: <[www.doctoroz.com]
This is Dr. Bredesen's book: <[smile.amazon.com]
This is a more in depth interview with Dr. Bredesen <[www.ihmc.us] There are certainly others, but this is a good one.

Here is a more detailed version of the story of the lady, Deborah, on the show: <[www.apoe4.info]

& If the link works (I'm in the land of very little internet bandwidth so can't test) is a more detailed version of Julie's story <[www.apoe4.info]

This is a description of the ApoE4 gene mentioned <[www.apoe4.info]

George



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2017 10:23AM by GeorgeN.

George N. I read 'The End of Alzheimer's' by Dr Bredesen - impressive work. Lucky man to have dinner with him!

Quote
Joe
George N. I read 'The End of Alzheimer's' by Dr Bredesen - impressive work. Lucky man to have dinner with him!

Joe, I was in the same position llmercll is asking about (I know I have a genetic risk, what should I do about it), but with respect to Alzheimers. My mom had it and I have a genetic risk. So I sought out doctors, researchers and groups that knew about it. At the time I was first looking, Dr. Bredesen published his paper in 2014 on reversing cognition issues in a small group. I also found the ApoE4.info group as well as the doctor I now consult with, Steven Gundry (who has been testing for ApoE4 in his patients for ~15 years). Through the ApoE4.info group, we went and visited Dr. Bredesen at the the Buck Institute in 2015. In 2016, we introduced Bredesen and Gundry and they now talk frequently. We also invited them to present at the AHS16 meeting in Boulder, CO, where we also introduced them to Terry Wahls and chatted with all of them at dinner. Dr. Bredesen came and presented to our group at Low Carb San Diego this last August.

Recently in the webinar series “Awakening from Alzheimer’s” which included 15 experts in the field of treating dementia and Alzheimer’s, Dr. Bredesen’s segment was outstanding and very encouraging…. Well, they all were, actually.

Although none of the physicians speaking claimed a “cure,” they all agreed that dementia and early Alzheimer’s was both reversible and also preventable if appropriate interventional and restorative steps were taken early. That was the encouragement -- begin healthy brain protective protocols to help prevent…especially when one tests positive for the various genetics involved. The presenting physicians offered their clinical observations with their specific protocols and everyone was enthusiastic about learning from one another.

In one part, Dr. Bredesen said:

… So we’ve been at this for 27 years, looking to discover what are the underlying
mechanisms that actually cause the degeneration in Alzheimer’s disease. And at this point we’re
seeing that this literally is the dawn of the era of treatable Alzheimer’s disease. We’re seeing people
who have pre-Alzheimer’s conditions, things like subjective cognitive impairment and mild
cognitive impairment — so called “MCI” — and then into early Alzheimer’s where we wouldn’t say
we’re reversing the disease because we’re not looking at an autopsy.

We’re reversing the cognitive decline that is associated with the disease, and we published the
first example of that now a little over a year and a half ago, and we’re seeing this repeatedly. We
published the first ten cases. Now we’ve had over 100 people come through the program, and we see
dramatic and unprecedented improvements – for example, improvements in hippocampal volume
on MRI, improvements in quantitative neurocyte testing, ability to go back to work…just some
amazing stories, people talking about their ability to interact with their spouses, their children, go
back to work, do jobs they couldn’t do before, get their memories back, and things like that.

Jackie

Win the lottery at age 25 and never work another day in my life!

That was plan A, of course. As it happened, plan B became necessary.

Seriously, I'd like to have had the presence of mind to reduce job stress at an earlier point rather than being pigheaded about it and insisting to myself that I could handle it. Stress is really a double-edged sword (or even triple-edged?) because not only is the stress and elevated cortisol levels bad enough on the body and heart, but they also lead many of us (myself included) to make ruinous choices in terms of diet and alcohol consumption.

I spent three years wrecking myself and now I'm about 2 1/4 years into rebuilding myself. Yes, it takes that long. The key is to put a stop to the wrecking ball sooner rather than later.

Thanks George!
Read 'The Plant Paradox' Not really convinced of it applying universally. Meaning that lectins etc. aren't a problem for people who don't have these sensitievities? Could also partly have to do with dosage?
At the same time it is worthwhile going lectin and gluten free, because the downsides are minimal, and see if it helps alleviate problems.

Joe:

Tomatoes are high in lectins, I raise tomatoes, eat a lot of them fresh and make and can sauce. My tomatoes came on in August, September and are still producing, during the months of August and September and the first week in Oct. I did not have any episodes of AF, I did get an episode the second week of Oct. but I worked very hard during those two months without an episode which was good.

I don't know about the "Plant Paradox" I believe in the Mediterranean diet which includes beans which the "Plant Paradox" says have lectins and to avoid them. I have seen many of these gurus come and go during my lifetime with different health plans and diets. For some these diets work but for others maybe not.

Liz

Joe & Liz,

Dr. G always tells us to "get our numbers in line & then see what we can get away with." There is a lot of individuality.

In my wife's & my case, we can see it in our labs when we avoid the foods on his "don't eat" list. I've always had autoimmune issues. My wife didn't think she did, but she saw a fairly dramatic lowering of TNF-alpha (an inflammation marker) when she ate cleanly. Also, her gluten sensitivity labs spiked last January after only two cheats over Christmas, and they were 't huge ones. Dr. G said she reacted like someone with celiac, even though she doesn't have the genes for that.

As he mentions in his book, lifetime exposure to antibiotics as well as chemicals in the food supply (glyphosate) can make a big difference in how much one reacts.

In my case, I'd started to get RA-like symptoms in my hands prior to starting his program. That cleared up immediately. I'd also had other autoimmune symptoms since birth or a toddler. Those improved 80-85%. I got another 10% improvement from my cyclical fasting.

George

George:

How often do you and your wife have lab work done? TNF-alpha, and gluten testing, those are tests that most doctors don't do, does your ins. pay for those? My holistic doctor does my blood work, never had those tests and really why should I have them? C-Reactive protein shows inflamation levels, why would one need TNF-alpha test? I apparently don't have symptoms that would warrant a gluten test.

Liz

Liz,

We do them 2x/year. They do run through our insurance. In our case, we have a 25% copay, which is about $500 for each of us and $1500 for the insurance co each time we have the labs run. Dr. G considers all his patients as participants in his trials. Hence he runs a very extensive set of labs on us. Not saying everybody needs this. Our July labs ran to over 20 pages from three different laboratories. Since he runs these labs on all patients, he can see what happens, for example, if someone with a genetic profile "X" is advised to do "Y."

For example, he's observed that those with the ApoE4 gene will spike sdLDL (small dense LDL, the most likely to oxidize), if they eat animal fat and even coconut/MCT oil. He also tests oxLDL (oxidized LDL) and sees the same result for E4's and these fats.

HsCRP is a generalized test of inflammation. We get tested on many different inflammatory markers, trying to optimize each one.

Effectively we are lab rats.

People have reported very good results just following his food lists and not being tested. But the way he develops the food lists is by testing all these people. Effectively, we are contributing to his research by paying for our labs.

Many would consider it overkill, we're happy with our outstanding labs and our health.

George

George:

Thank you for your reply. I noticed that Dr. G. says you can eat 2 grains, Sorghum and Millet, you should tell your Doc. that a number of years ago I started to eat a bread that was made with Millet. My thyroid hormone dropped, I became hypo, when I stopped the bread it went back to normal, I avoid anything with Millet in it.

Liz