Blood coagulability test?

Hi - I have been on this forum for many years and you guys have kept me going through lots of things that I never posted about. I appreciate you all so much. As far as AFIB, goes I have actually been really lucky. I went all through 2016 with no attacks. Usually I have them two or three times a year. I went on an extremely low sodium diet a while back which has helped and also really helped with my blood pressure. I also follow all or most of your supplement/dietary recommendations. I only recently saw cardiologist for the first time, after I had an episode that lasted over 24 hours. About three months later had another that lasted 44 hours. I was given flecainide toward the end of my 44 hour episode and then three hours later it ended. The question of blood thinners has of course come up. I have only seen the nurse practitioner once, and not the doctor yet at all. I am taking nattokinase twice a day, and cinnamon for my blood sugar, but I know that it is supposed to cause blood thinning, too. What I want to know is what tests can I ask for that can tell me how my blood coagulability is now, without drugs. My mother had afib and died of a hemorrhagic stroke from coumadin. They want to put me on Eliquis (opinions?). I want to stay off blood thinners for as long as possible but I would like to know how my blood is doing. Does anyone have advice?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2017 09:41PM by jennifer92151.

The first question you should be asking is what your CHADS score is. Maybe you don't need to take anticoagulants at all, or maybe you need to get on them ASAP. You've got to know the answer to that question before you worry about the other stuff.

You may want to talk to the docs about a prescription for flecainide on demand (or PIP - Pill in Pocket). Since flec worked for you, the idea would be to take it as soon as an episode starts. Since you'd been out of rhythm for 44 hours when you took the flec, if you took it immediately, you might convert faster than 3 hours. The thought being that if you are out of rhythm very little, why bother about thinners. I second Carey's recommendation about Chads score.

See:: <[www.nejm.org]

I have used this approach successfully for 13 years. My episodes are infrequent, averaging about once a year for the last 4 years. Mine usually convert with flec in an hour or two.

I do take a lot of magnesium (grams/day) to keep the afib at bay.

My protocol is to take it the instant I realize I'm in afib. I actually chew the tablets to make them act faster (taste is not great).

George

Hi,
I'm new here and so pleased to have come to find this forum! Soo much useful info!

Wondering if Dr Sinatra's 'earthing' would be of value?
[www.drsinatra.com]

I wondered about this too, if you could maybe get your pro time or INR rates checked or another one like PTT or aPTT to determine if your blood was thin from supplements? I want to take curcumin for instance and want to take fish oil, etc. but I don't want my blood to get to them or not be able to clot at all I suppose... has anyone done these tests while they were on supplements that thin the blood?

Ben

Suspect there is no money in investigating/trail of supplements and/or food for anti clotting efficacy?

Reminds me of what my niece, a theater nurse told us the other week:'The operated on a male and all seemed OK. When she was about to drive home she received an urgent message to return. The patient was hemorrhaging and it took from early evening to 3AM to stabilize him - he almost died.'
Doctors questioning him regarding meds etc (as well as having his med history etc. obtained prior to the op), they eventually put it down to him eating one to two cloves of raw garlic per day.
I asked the cardiologist i see about garlic and anti clotting - he had no knowledge of it being effective unless one eats an awful lot (was not able to get him to tell what an awful lot is)

Starwarsfan/Ben... Back when I first began my afib saga, warfarin was the only blood thinner available and I didn't tolerate that well at all...so I took the "natural" approach. I was concerned about the risk of clotting with events of prolonged duration, as many of mine were, and did a lot of research on what influences clotting or makes 'thick, sticky blood.' I used mainly the fibrinolytic enzyme, nattokinase, but also added curcumin and between 4 - 6 grams of a high-quality, pure Omega 3 fish oil to help manage inflammatory factors. I did well with that for 8 years until I finally gave in and had my first ablation.

I was in the care of my Functional Medicine Board Certified Family Practice physician who routinely ran tests which helped identify inflammation that helps promote the formation of thick, sticky blood and the clotting tendency.

You can view the first post on the topic.... Sticky, Thick Blood and Risk of Stroke and MI
[www.afibbers.org]

And also this more recent one one on Clot Risk.... [www.afibbers.org]

And if you use the search feature here for all dates ... and the topic Sticky Thick Blood, you'll come up with many posts on this topic.... and it certainly is an important one.

Jackie

Quote
Starwarsfan
I wondered about this too, if you could maybe get your pro time or INR rates checked or another one like PTT or aPTT to determine if your blood was thin from supplements? I want to take curcumin for instance and want to take fish oil, etc. but I don't want my blood to get to them or not be able to clot at all I suppose... has anyone done these tests while they were on supplements that thin the blood? Ben

I take 4.8 g/day fish oil, 83 mg aspirin (to activate fish oil into resolvins) as well as other items that thin blood. I haven't tested with lab tests, but I do test rock climbing... I routinely leave a "skin tithe" on the rock. Some times these are fairly material. Blood does take a while to clot, but does clot after a bit.

George

Thanks everyone!

Quote
Joe
Wondering if Dr Sinatra's 'earthing' would be of value?

No. Kind of an interesting idea in a quirky sort of way, but there's no evidence whatsoever it works. But it's harmless to try, so feel free.

Thanks Carey! Take it as no evidence doing a double blind trail to proof or disproof.

Joe - In the post on Clot Risk... I added the following links which confirm the "evidence" and benefits of Earthing....
If you open the pdf file and go to page 173 - you can see the photos in the Earthing experiment which clearly shows the benefits to reduce platelet aggregation or clumping.

Jackie



Earthing or Grounding The easy and economical way to eliminate platelet aggregation.
There are many archived posts on this topic. Check this search result for links
[www.afibbers.org]

Specific to platelet aggregation and blood viscosity, Integrative Cardiologist, Stephen T. Sinatra, MD, FACC, FACN, CNS
has offered numerous reports online. In his book, The Sinatra Solution – Metabolic Cardiology, he
details on the benefits of grounding. I recall seeing a video clip where he shows before and after photos
of platelets clumped together and then separated by grounding in an experiment he did with colleagues.
Dramatic change. It’s important to eliminate electromagnetic radiation sources (EMR’s) wherever possible
starting with the bedroom since that’s an area where you will be exposed continually for the duration of sleeping hours.
He recommends removing all sources, cell phones, computers, TVs, and using a grounding or earthing pad or sheet.

One report online out of many [heartmdinstitute.com]

Here’s a pdf copy of the book, Earthing by Clinton Ober, Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D., Martin Zucker
[www.rivendellvillage.org]


Page 173 - Earthing – Natural Blood Thinner… and p. 188 is the dark field microscopy photograph of blood platelet cells, clumped before grounding and separated, after. Graphic proof.

Earthing is pure junk science.

But feel free to find some credible sources that say otherwise. Credible sources do not include some guy's book that a brief skimming shows to be full of falsehoods, wild exaggerations, and unsupported claims.

Here's a journal publication on this topic that goes into more detail:

Chevalier and Sinatra—Grounding and Improved Autonomic Tone
Integrative Medicine • Vol. 10, No. 3 • Jun/Jul 2011

ORIGINAL RESEARCH
Emotional Stress, Heart Rate Variability, Grounding, and
Improved Autonomic Tone: Clinical Applications
Gaétan Chevalier, PhD ; Stephen T. Sinatra, MD, FACC, FACN, CNS

Over the last few years, the utilization of integrative
biophysics for medical application has been increasing in
popularity. Grounding or earthing is the oldest and most
basic form of natural bioelectric potential that supports
physiological and electrophysiological changes in the body.
Since previous investigations have shown that grounding
profoundly affects skin conductance within seconds, we
hypothesized that grounding may also improve heart rate
variability (HRV).

In this study of 27 final participants, grounded subjects
had improvements in HRV that go beyond basic relaxation
(P<.01). Since improved HRV has such a positive impact on
cardiovascular status, it is suggested that simple grounding
techniques be utilized as a basic integrative strategy in sup-
porting the cardiovascular system, especially under situations
of heightened autonomic tone (ie, when the sympathetic nervous
system is more activated than the parasympathetic nervous system).

Gaétan Chevalier, PhD, has a doctorate in engineering physics from the University
of Montréal, Montréal, Québec, Canada. After working 4 years at UCLA as a spec
- troscopist in the field of plasma physics, he worked 10 years as professor and director
of research at the California Institute for Human Science (Encinitas, California)
where his research focus was electrophysiology. He is currently a visiting scientist
in the Developmental and Cell Biology Department, University of California at
Irvine, and a scientific consultant for Earth FX Inc in Palm Springs, California.
Dr Chevalier has published more than 40 papers in peer-reviewed journals.

Stephen T. Sinatra, MD, FACC, FACN, CNS , is an assistant clinical professor of medi-
cine at the University of Connecticut School of Medicine. He is a cardiologist and
author of more than a dozen books and 20 peer-review medical articles. Dr Sinatra
also writes a national monthly newsletter entitled Heart, Health and Nutrition

Trying not to sound too cynical, please remember to follow the money trail on these guys with new, "evidence", on new problems they've help define so they can solve them to their everlasting fame and fortune.

OTOH, there doesn't appear to be any harm in drinking their Kool Aid solution and it's only money and discomfort so why not give it a try?

Gordon

Thank you Jackie! It ticks:'first do no harm'.
As he says in the book:
'Like any new idea in the medical world, Earthing needs to be care fully
scrutinized and tested objectively without bias'

Agree with Gordon but maybe for different reasons. How much money are they going to make from patients going barefoot? Whereas the drug and burn lot.......

Not clear that blood viscosity and blood clotting are the same. While i have no reason to doubt Dr Sinatra's et al claim of the Zeta potential reducing clumping of red blood cells, is that also doing something to the fibrin? Or is it all the same?

Joe - I totally agree with you about new ideas and the reluctance for something simplistic and from Nature to be accepted in the medical world as definitely, there is no money in healing by walking barefoot, for sure. But, those who fix homes and eliminate the harmful 'waves' from smart meters or nearby cell towers, are paid for their expertise. The people helped claim it is like a miracle and the healing, a very welcome outcome.

The 'electricity' of cells is valid and that's one component of what causes cells clump together; but as you mention, the issue of excess fibrin is certainly a factor as is sources of inflammation referred to as "silent inflammation" vs. causing inflammation by trauma. Many dietary factors contribute to an inflammatory response as well and a combination of the remedies can keep blood flowing and reduce the hyperviscosity and the earthing helps as well.

Here's a couple of links you might find interesting:
[spacedoc.com]
[www.alkalizeforhealth.net]

Jackie

Thank you Jackie!
Confessing that i've used a simple carbon matt i purchased from an electronics supplier a year or so ago. The type used for earthing oneself when working on electronic circuit boards. Figured that it can't hurt.
I have a basic understanding of chemistry and physics so i take what is said in the links on board without having the expertise to be critical one way or the other. I simply revert to instinct and look for potential up sides and down sides.

Did have some concern about hydration when i think what Prof. Noaks says about it.

Just received 'Healing is Voltage: The handbook' can't wait to read it (yes, i'm a bit of a nerd)

It does concern me when the GP/Cardiologist says all my blood works are normal. I tell him that i'm not looking for normal but for optimal for my genotype.
Carey's experience with Potassium levels just confirms my thoughts.
With afib it might turn out that the best approach is something like Dr Bredesen, MD tells in his book 'The End of Alzheimer's'
Our GP aren't really interested in prevention. It's not their business model i suspect.

This site is a wonderful resource and it try to read from the library one article a day.

Joe - I’m sure you’ll find Dr. Tennant’s book informative and useful. The various items one can use to help with EMF exposure such as Earthing pads are said to be very helpful by those using who are electro-sensitive. I use the pad for sleeping and another grounding device just because I’m on the computer so much and although I’m not aware of sensitivities, that doesn’t mean internally, those interferences aren’t causing harm.

Dr. Breedeson's information is very timely and brilliant.... as was the participation in that webinar. I'm still 'reeling' from the health nuggets that were mentioned as part of patient successes.

Jackie

on the subject of blood coagulability, I am wondering about the CHADs score. For instance I a 79yo so of course it adds to my score, however other than my afib bouts (until July I got them every 2-3yrs)I am extremely healthy and eat a vegetarian diet with loads of fruits/veggies. Prior to my bout of several episodes of afib in July, I was on Nattokinase/garlic/fish oil but because of my age the cardiologist insisted that I go on a blood thinner (also 12.5mg extended release Metoprolol at bedtime). I opted for Eliquis 2.5 2xday, however I frankly am in fear of having some sort of hemorrhagic stroke Surely regardless of age, if we are doing the nattokinase etc wouldn't we be safe from strokes in a safer way? anneh

Anneh, did your doctor order a clotting test?
I was asked to take 5mg Eliquis 2x/day and he just told me it's because of my CHADs score 1.5 to 2. I only took 1/day for about the last year and have stopped now taking it completely.
He did tell me that with my score the risk of a hemorrhage taking Eliquis is about equal to the risk of a clot by not taking the anticoagulant.
I take 20 mg of Sotalol evenings since 10/15 (against the cardiologists recommendation).Prior, for the last year i took 40mg evenings only. This is down from 80mg 2x/day 11/2 years ago (cardiologist's recommendation).

thnx for responding Joe. How do they do a clotting test? I will insist the cardiologist do one. I had blood drawn yesterday because apparently they have to keep on eye on the kidneys if you are on Eliquis =:0 I noticed I had a purple mark where they drew blood, never normally get that. anneh

Don't remember the precise way. In my case, he told me that they are not that reliable predicting clot formationand with the new class of anti clotting drugs blood tests aren't necessary . Not being an expert i can't really argue with the cardiologist. He just goes by the CHADs score.
I would have thought if one's blood has normal clotting values then why would one take anti clotting chemicals as well?