If calcium is so bad for us, how is vitamin D so good?

Hi guys? I haven't posted much, and honestly haven't had a fib much, only one long 2.5 months run of a fib about eight months ago and one day of it a few weeks after, both that I had to be shocked out of,although I think the first long one might've initially been medicine (thyroid overdose) related, and the second one from having an inflamed heart after being in a fib 10 weeks, and also having worked out w weights the whole time I was in a fib because I got bad advice… Including bad advice not to get cardioverted LOL…

Anyway, One thing I've noticed is a lot of people on here take a fairly high-level of vitamin D… Which obviously has a main function of increasing calcium absorption in the gut, and calcium retention in the body. I have experimented with vitamin D and higher dosages early on, but found it made me very stiff, just the opposite of what magnesium does.....and this leads me to believe that high doses of vitamin D aren't good for "us"… Many on here also say that calcium is a trigger or exacerbates their a fib… So it makes sense that vitamin D would do the same…What are your guys' thoughts on this?

Ben

Ben,

My doc, Steven Gundry, prescribes 10,000 US's/day of D3 for me, to keep my 25OHD level at 120 (in US units). Gundry keeps his level there and wants my wife there, too. He says he's yet to see a case of D toxicity in his patients. For me, I know (have experienced) that calcium is a bad actor for my afib control. Having 25OHD of 120 has no negative impact on my afib control. I certainly wouldn't argue that this is true for everyone and that people should pay attention to their own bodies.

George

Hi Ben - Good question. My FM MD also likes me to keep my 25 OH D numbers at least 60 and I feel best around 70.
One benefit for me has been no colds or flu for 17 years. George's numbers encourage me to take a higher dose...so thanks, George.

The other benefit of optimizing vitamin D for me was completely reversing the diagnosis of fibromyalgia from years ago.
I was prescribed drugs for the FM... that did nothing to reverse the source cause. After I had the test and found my 25 OH D level was 18, (which the Rheumatologist did not do), I began the Vit. D treatment regimen and all the fibromyalgia symptoms gradually disappeared. You can more read at the Vitamin D Council here: [www.vitamindcouncil.org]
Some reports still stick with the 25 OH D level target of 40 so beware that many people are not yet totally aware of importance of the higher levels for various preventions.

The key to preventing the calcifications of soft tissue is the use of Vitamin K2 in the form of menaquinone 7 or MK7.
This directs circulating calcium into bones where it belongs and avoids the soft tissue calcium accumulations. Dosages vary depending on the report, but most say a minimum of 200 mcg of the K2 MK7. One brand by Life Extension offers a combo product... Super K which has the 200 mcg. MK7.

This report and product description explains in detail the advantages - [www.lifeextension.com]

Jackie

I should note, I do take 200 mcg of MK-7 as Jackie notes. Also, my wife alternates 10,000 IUs & 5,000 IUs every other day on D3 to keep her 25OHD level at 120 - it is individual. Gundry does note a big autoimmune benefit from high 25 OHD levels. Another cofactor is Vitamin A. I get an average of over 16,000 IU's/day of A from food.

All this being said, if you notice negative consequences from your intake, pay attention. Just because it works for me, doesn't mean it will for you.

I have genetics that require my high intake to keep my level up. Also I encourage testing to see where you are (25OHD). While not everyone agrees with a 25 OHD of 120, most in the field agree that 60 is good for all.

starwarsfan:

Yes indeed, we are all different. I don't take Vit. D as I am outside most everday, of course in the winter it is hard to get any sun. I have a problem with some supplements as some of them will give me aura migraines which Nattokinase most definitely does to me, Natto is in K-2 so I don't take that anymore.

My Holistic doctor doesn't seem to have a problem with calcium as he includes it in some of his supplements---with Vit. C, some of his magnesium supplements. I eat some mozzarella cheese everyday, some butter no other dairy products without any problems.

As George says what works for him may not work for you.

I got this article from the Mayo clinic online site:

What is vitamin D toxicity, and should I worry about it since I take supplements?
Answers from Katherine Zeratsky, R.D., L.D.

Vitamin D toxicity, also called hypervitaminosis D, is a rare but potentially serious condition that occurs when you have excessive amounts of vitamin D in your body.

Vitamin D toxicity is usually caused by megadoses of vitamin D supplements — not by diet or sun exposure. That's because your body regulates the amount of vitamin D produced by sun exposure, and even fortified foods don't contain large amounts of vitamin D.

The main consequence of vitamin D toxicity is a buildup of calcium in your blood (hypercalcemia), which can cause poor appetite, nausea and vomiting. Weakness, frequent urination and kidney problems also may occur.

Treatment includes the stopping of excessive vitamin D intake. Your doctor also may prescribe intravenous fluids and medications, such as corticosteroids or bisphosphonates.

Taking 50,000 international units (IU) a day of vitamin D for several months has been shown to cause toxicity. This level is many times higher than the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for most adults of 600 IU of vitamin D a day."

Many on this broad say that Calcium is not good for AF yet this article says that Vit. D is helpful for an uptake of Calcium in your blood. So does it mean that the more Vit. D that you take the more calcium buildup in your blood?

Liz



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2017 05:05PM by Elizabeth.

Are you guys aware that there is a study that links levels of vitamin D greater than 100 with atrial fibrillation? Let me see if I can find it and I'll try and post the link...

I had heard of that study and that's why I was asking… The study only said levels greater than 100 though…
I just did a quick Google search and found a link to an article that talked about the study, I'm sure I could've found it with a little bit more digging but its mid message on here that I'm searching for this... by the way I'm not trying to say that you guys are wrong for taking it by any means, because I think it is an AWESOME cure according to the literature and I WANT to be able to take it, I just was wondering how to get around that…

And George, do you take in much dietary calcium? and while we're on it what are your potassium intake from both food and supplements, as well as sodium, since you're doing the low-carb diet/fasting? I saw where you went to one of Phinney's seminars which is awesome...

Here is the link I copied for article, not actual study:

[www.eurekalert.org]

Quote
Starwarsfan
Are you guys aware that there is a study that links levels of vitamin D greater than 100 with atrial fibrillation? Let me see if I can find it and I'll try and post the link...

I can say that for certain it doesn't work that way in me.

Quote
Starwarsfan
And George, do you take in much dietary calcium? and while we're on it what are your potassium intake from both food and supplements, as well as sodium, since you're doing the low-carb diet/fasting? I saw where you went to one of Phinney's seminars which is awesome...

I now supplement 200 mg potassium a day, mostly for the citrate (as potassium citrate). I don't need potassium supplements to keep my serum levels above 4.0.

Did a detailed diet study in March over 14 days (and I wasn't doing my fasting 120 hours out of 14 days during this). Here are the gory details (daily averages from food not supplements):

Energy (kcal) 2167.5
Alcohol (g) 2.5
Caffeine (mg) 0.0
Water (g) 623.0
B1 (Thiamine) (mg) 1.2
B12 (Cobalamin) (µg) 0.9
B2 (Riboflavin) (mg) 0.9
B3 (Niacin) (mg) 11.6
B5 (Pantothenic Acid) (mg) 4.2
B6 (Pyridoxine) (mg) 1.7
Folate (µg) 407.0
Vitamin A (IU) 16220.4
Vitamin C (mg) 167.2
Vitamin D (IU) 27.1
Vitamin E (mg) 11.6
Vitamin K (µg) 548.4
Calcium (mg) 520.6
Copper (mg) 2.6
Iron (mg) 14.3
Magnesium (mg) 379.4
Manganese (mg) 6.8
Phosphorus (mg) 966.3
Potassium (mg) 3173.7
Selenium (µg) 41.3
Sodium (mg) 2919.6
Zinc (mg) 7.6
Carbs (g) 122.1
Fiber (g) 51.3
Starch (g) 21.2
Sugars (g) 32.1
Fat (g) 175.0
Cholesterol (mg) 131.6
Monounsaturated (g) 88.3
Omega-3 (g) 2.9
Omega-6 (g) 24.7
Polyunsaturated (g) 37.8
Saturated (g) 24.6
Trans-Fats (g) 0.0
Cystine (g) 0.6
Glycine (g) 1.8
Histidine (g) 1.0
Isoleucine (g) 1.7
Leucine (g) 2.9
Lysine (g) 2.3
Methionine (g) 0.7
Phenylalanine (g) 1.8
Protein (g) 52.0
Threonine (g) 1.6
Tryptophan (g) 0.5
Tyrosine (g) 1.1
Valine (g) 2.1

Thanks George! I really appreciate all the info you give to this forum, I'm definitely not trying to critique you about the vitamin D… I think one cool thing that could be noted from looking at your nutrients in relation to vitamin D is that you are not taking in much calcium at all, so regardless of how much vitamin D you are taking in, you can't really absorb "more" than the 500+ milligrams of calcium you're taking in a day… and you don't really need much more than 500 at only 52 g of protein a day...if you were taking in 1500 mg of calcium a day that vitamin D my compound it or at least make sure you absorb all of it, which may be bad and as you said higher calcium seemed to have a negative affect... so keeping it low is the key regardless of vitamin D intake it seems…
I've been looking for ways to increase D that wouldn't freak me out about increasing a fib, so you all's experience definitely at least makes me think I could get up to 50 or 60 and be OK… mines been 25 and I've been afraid to increase it due to my fear of calcium… Would love to start taking more, I think the immune/anti-inflammatory benefits of that would be great, and I've seen some studies in specific populations where vitamin D reduced atrial size as well, which we could all probably use, and upon further review tonight I found multiple studies on pub med that had a correlation between decreased vitamin D levels and incidence of a fib…

Your diet looks impressive as far as nutrients ago… That obviously doesn't include your supplements, are you still also doing 1.4 g of magnesium a day?

I saw where your potassium is gained mostly from foods now, I'm trying to keep mine at about 3500mg a day and my sodium about 5 to 5500mg a day, but that's just because I'm on keto now and if I get it much lower than that when my carbs are < 20 net grams a day I feel super lightheaded…...actually been downsizing/detraining from weights and lost 25, hope to lose 25 more on Keto... I'm a little scared though because keto does increase adrenaline a bit and I can tell there's a bit more Adrenergic tone, although I've converted to a fib only twice and at 3 am resting after exercise so I'm guessing I'm Vagal if anything...have you had any experience with straight low-carb? And it's effect on your a fib? I've been doing about 700 magnesium a day but I may up that to see if that is a bit more relaxing, thoughts?

Thanks
Ben



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2017 05:11AM by Starwarsfan.

George - That detailed nutrient list is impressive. I can't imagine the time it took to list them. Did you have a special resource program? Just curious. It does serve to point out that in your 14 days the magnesium content in foods was only 379.4 mg - supporting the reason why we all need to optimize with Mg supplements.

Ben - You're definitely on the right path in your plan to increase vitamin D. You can go slowly. That's what I did. It is important to be tested regularly as you make the increases and also observe how you feel as you optimize.

Here's an excerpt from a report on the importance of Vitamin D by Dr. Mercola - based on info from Vitamin D Researcher, Michael Holick, MD, PhD.

Jackie


Cardiovascular disease. Vitamin D is very important for reducing hypertension, atherosclerotic heart disease, heart attack, and stroke. According to Dr. Holick, one study showed that vitamin D deficiency increased the risk of heart attack by 50 percent. What's worse, if you have a heart attack and you're vitamin D deficient, your risk of dying from that heart attack creeps up to nearly 100 percent!

Autoimmune diseases. Vitamin D is a potent immune modulator, making it very important for the prevention of autoimmune diseases, like multiple sclerosis and inflammatory bowel disease.

Infections, including influenza. It also helps you fight infections of all kinds. A study done in Japan, for example, showed that schoolchildren taking 1,200 units of vitamin D per day during winter reduced their risk of getting influenza A infection by about 40 percent. I believe it's far more prudent, safer, less expensive, and most importantly, far more effective to optimize your vitamin D levels than to get vaccinated against the flu.

DNA repair and metabolic processes. One of Dr. Holick's studies showed that healthy volunteers taking 2,000 IUs of vitamin D per day for a few months up-regulated 291 different genes that control up to 80 different metabolic processes, from improving DNA repair to having effect on autoxidation (oxidation that occurs in the presence of oxygen and/or UV radiation, which has implications for aging and cancer, for example), boosting your immune system and many other biological processes.

How Much Vitamin D Do You Need for Optimal Health?
Continue: [articles.mercola.com]

Your diet looks impressive as far as nutrients ago… That obviously doesn't include your supplements, are you still also doing 1.4 g of magnesium a day?
Yes, 1.4-2g/day now. Also methyl B12.

Quote
Starwarsfan
I saw where your potassium is gained mostly from foods now, I'm trying to keep mine at about 3500mg a day and my sodium about 5 to 5500mg a day, but that's just because I'm on keto now and if I get it much lower than that when my carbs are < 20 net grams a day I feel super lightheaded…...actually been downsizing/detraining from weights and lost 25, hope to lose 25 more on Keto... I'm a little scared though because keto does increase adrenaline a bit and I can tell there's a bit more Adrenergic tone, although I've converted to a fib only twice and at 3 am resting after exercise so I'm guessing I'm Vagal if anything...have you had any experience with straight low-carb? And it's effect on your a fib? I've been doing about 700 magnesium a day but I may up that to see if that is a bit more relaxing, thoughts?

Mostly, I don't track my food intake - what I posted above was using me as a beta - tester of a guy's nutrient optimizer program. I've been keto adapted since Oct 2009. During the adaptation process, I did have one afib episode that I attribute to that process. Likely from electrolyte shifts. Know more how to do that now, than I did then. Other than that, keto has not impacted my afib. When I did that I was <20 g carbs (gross as I recall) for a couple of weeks. At this point, when I eat, I eat a lot more carbs. My range on gross carbs during the tracking was ~87 - 180g/day with a mean of ~123. Fiber ranged from 45-60, as I recall. Even with this my serum betahydroxybuterate ranged from 0.5 - 2.0 mmol/L in the morning (I eat in a 2 hour window in the evening). So I make a lot of ketones even with a relatively high carb intake - lots of resistive starches. Yuca, green plantain, green banana, jicama, Japanese or Okinawan sweet potatoes, taro & etc. I do a 120 hour fast within every 14 days and the transition to fasting is always seamless. Glucose has dropped as low as 31 mg/dL and ketones as high as 7.5 mmol/L on day 5 of the fast. Day five is when I do a "superslow to failure" workout at the gym followed by a Tabata set on a Concept 2 rower (20 seconds hard as possible 10 seconds rest - eight cycles). I've managed to increase time under load or load <[www.danielseidel.com] every time I've done this. I only do this workout on day 5 of the fast, when I'm in town as you aren't supposed to do it more than once a week and every two weeks is fine. I just did one after six weeks because of being out of town and still managed the increases. Also, it is fun to do the Tabata set, having just failed the legs and arms...

Thanks Jackie and George! I am definitely going to gradually increase my vitamin D now....

Jackie, did you take this much vitamin D before your ablation? And have a good control before then? Or is this something you did after your ablation/s?

George, could you tell us exactly how you're getting in the supplemental magnesium, as in what form and what times?
I have been trying to get 200 of magnesium ascorbate from vitamin C twice a day, and then 325 from Calm powder before bed, along with Taurine 4g powder… But I've been thinking of increasing it because I still seem to have some PACs here and there or just a weird "shift" from faster to slow all at once sometimes… It would be great to know how you are getting in between 1.4 and 2 g per day

Thanks
Ben

Quote
Starwarsfan
George, could you tell us exactly how you're getting in the supplemental magnesium, as in what form and what times?
I have been trying to get 200 of magnesium ascorbate from vitamin C twice a day, and then 325 from Calm powder before bed, along with Taurine 4g powder… But I've been thinking of increasing it because I still seem to have some PACs here and there or just a weird "shift" from faster to slow all at once sometimes… It would be great to know how you are getting in between 1.4 and 2 g per day

This week I'm traveling, so my default is di-magnesium malate powder. <[shop.performanceequinenutrition.com] A tsp or 1.5 tsp/day. At home, I'd likely make up magnesium acetate from plain milk of magnesia and organic apple cider vinegar in a 2:7 ratio. 2 TBL MOM : 7 TBL ACV. For me, timing or kind of mag makes no difference, as long as I take it. I have used every kind of mag successfully - citrate, glycinate & etc. About the only kind try to avoid is oxide, but have used that too, in a pinch.

Realize my tolerance is very unusually high.

Ben - You should definitely be tested for your vitamin D level initially and then periodically so you can monitor your progress or lack thereof. If the number doesn't move if you are taking say, 2,000 IUs daily, then doubling the dose may be required... and often more. It does take time, so be aware.

As for the timing and my ablation, I had done all the increasing about 5 years prior to my first ablation.

Jackie

Also, I can take my mag all at once, in the morning, in the evening, spread out or whatever. 2 or so g/day is well below my bowel tolerance, so it really doesn't matter. But, I may be a special case. Pay attention to what your body says.