Welcome to the Afibber’s Forum
Our 18th Year Online!
Moderated by: Shannon Dickson

Afibbers Home Afibbers Forum General Health Forum
Afib Resources Afib Database Vitamin Shop

Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile


Clot risk

Posted by Jackie 
Clot risk
April 15, 2017 12:03PM
Clot risk

Welcome to new readers!

My focus on the Afibbers Forum is to create awareness over important issues related to Afib and overall health to promote longevity. Since we have many new readers joining us daily, this is an important reminder to be aware of the potential for risk of stroke or heart attack from blood clots that can form in the heart during prolonged bouts of atrial fibrillation. While it’s not that common, the risk is real has been an important forum topic so there are many archived posts on natural, preventive measures, if you have not been prescribed an anticoagulant.

Clot risk involves both the time factor and the status of one’s blood viscosity. Thick, sticky blood is known to clot faster than thin and slippery. In addition to the important heart support nutrients such as electrolytes/minerals such as magnesium and potassium, etc., Afibbers who are not on anticoagulants, also need to be aware of potential causes of blood hyperviscosity and incorporate a daily prophylactic regimen for that as well. Whether or not you have atrial fibrillation, this is of critical importance throughout one’s life as many influences cause hyperviscosity. This can become an issue when Afib events last longer than a few hours and harkens back to the old warning, “Churn cream and you get butter; churn blood and you get a clot” which still holds true today.

Inflammation is a primary element in promoting hyperviscosity or thick, sticky blood, so knowing your inflammatory markers as well as taking steps to keep inflammation low is very important…again, whether or not you have atrial fibrillation.

Here’s a bit of background and then links to some of the past reports and posts on this very important topic. As you read through these reports, you’ll note references to systemic enzymes that function well to lower fibrinogen and help thin the blood by natural means. Magnesium bisglycinate is also known for its anti-platelet aggregation properties. Low dose aspirin is also has anti-clotting properties but when used long-term is known to cause undesirable side effects. That said, if you are surprised by a long-lasting afib event and are not on an Rx anticoag or using systemic enzymes, then taking an 81 mg tablet of aspirin certainly makes sense.

Magnesium Bisglycinate has a greater blood antiplatelet effect than fish oil (p < 0.02) A cross over study compared blood platelet adhesiveness in volunteers after 7 days supplementing with fish oil (3g/day) followed by a 7 day washout period and finally 7 days supplementation with (160/mg/day). Magnesium Bisglycinate significantly reduced platelet adhesiveness (p <0.05). It was concluded that Mg bisglycinate had great potential for reducing risk in people with a propensity for stroke. ~ Weaver K & Speigel , J Am CollNutr 7:5, 1988

My history is that I have a slightly low platelet count which made using Coumadin/warfarin difficult back when I began my afib saga (1995) which was the only anticoagulant available at the time. In desperation and after much research, I decided not to use warfarin and told my cardiologist that I would sign a waiver if needed but I was going to switch to the fibrinolytic enzymes (Nattokinase) and I hoped he wouldn’t ‘fire’ me. I didn’t have to sign a waiver and I did very well with many prolonged events during the 8 years prior to my first (Natale) ablation in 2003. For that, I did go back on warfarin and as soon as I was cleared to stop (3 months), I immediately went back to using nattokinase (NK).

Good thing, because at 103 days post-ablation, I went into Afib and was cardioverted about 30 hours later. The following week, I had the requisite spiral CT scan of the heart in preparation for the 3 month review with Dr. Natale. All was fine and I was enjoying my bliss in NSR. I had asked for and received about 6 weeks later, a copy of the CT scan report. I was shocked to see the notation that there was a clot in my heart. I called Dr. Natale’s nurse and I half-joked about the situation, saying “it’s a good thing I went back on my Nattokinase or I’d probably be dead.”

Previously, I had great confidence in the efficacy of systemic enzymes for managing clot-risk factors, but this certainly confirmed what I had learned in all my research prior to my decision to use NK instead of warfarin. I had the good fortune to have many conversations with Ralph Holsworth, DO, the NK expert in the US, and he shared volumes of research with me and his experiences using it with his patients. As a result, I offered the two Conference Room Sessions, 39 and 40 on Nattokinase. Since then, the literature continues to support the use of nattokinase as well as serrapeptase for this purpose.

Nattokinase: Natto kyn (long i ) nase
Session 39 – Nattokinase, Interim Survey [www.afibbers.org]
Session 40 - Nattokinase Summary Part 1 and 2 [www.afibbers.org]
Lots to read through… Part 2 begins on page 23.

Dr Hiroyuki Sumi, a Japanese researcher at Chicago University is the scientist with whom Dr. Holsworth studied to learn about nattokinase. Over 17 published studies confirm Dr. Sumi’s discovery: Natto is a natural clot buster and circulation booster! Human trials performed in Japan and the U.S. show nattokinase may be the solution for a host of circulation-related health problems.

The new, improved version is CardioKinase by Pure Prescriptions. Spend time here at this website to read the current details and improvements with Nattokinase written by Dr. Holsworth. Be sure you examine the comparison chart with the red hearts. Use this website information as the most reliable info source as of this date. [www.pureprescriptions.com]

Dosing –recommendations – Take 3 SoftGels daily. For best results, take additional SoftGel at bedtime.

(Remember that the risk of stroke or MI is higher during the early morning hours before awakening because levels of PAI-1 are low and clotting is easier then. (Plasmin Activator Inhibitor-1). So it's smart to always take a bedtime dose.

Caution: Nattokinase should be avoided by those on blood-thinning drugs and those with bleeding disorders. Nattokinase does contain soy because it is extracted from the food called ‘natto.’ Nattokinase should not be used by persons with bleeding disorders, malignant disease, recent history of stroke, active peptic ulcer disease, suspected aortic dissection, or recent surgery or trauma.

Blood Tests to Identify Inflammation
There are several blood tests to help identify contributors to inflammation and are discussed
in the post titled:
Sticky, thick blood and the risk of stroke or MI

….which is a follow-up to the original post from 2002 titled:

Red Flags to Beat the Odds -


For a general search on the topic of thick, sticky blood go here:
Five pages and 140 posts on this topic. Start with page 5 first to get into the initial background and then move forward to present time.

A descriptive explanation on the importance of systemic enzymes by Dr. William Wong, who helped me learn more on this topic:
When systemic enzymes are taken, they stand ready in the blood and take the strain off of the liver by:
Cleaning excess fibrin from the blood and reducing the stickiness of blood cells. These two actions minimize the leading causes of stroke and heart attack causing blood clots.

The blood is not only the river of life, it is also the river through which the cells and organs dispose of their garbage and dead material. Enzymes improve circulation by eating the excess fibrin that causes blood to sometimes get as thick as catsup or yogurt, creating the perfect environment for the formation of clots. All of this material is supposed to be cleared by the liver on its "first pass", or the first time it goes through but given the sluggish and near toxic or toxic states of everyone's liver these days that seldom happens. So the sludge remains in the blood waiting for the liver to have enough free working space and enough enzymes to clean the trash out of the blood. This can take days, and in some cases, weeks!

Other popular and highly effective enzymes include Zymessence, VitalZyme, Wobenzyme N, Rutozym.

And, another excellent, informative report by Life Extension report by William Falloon of Life Extension Foundation…offered January, 2017 – titled, The Greatest Threat to Longevity.

Please take the time to read through this wealth of information on adverse clotting as it is an extremely important issue for Afibber Awareness.

Healthy regards to all,


I’m adding more relevant links from previous posts related to elevated blood viscosity and stroke risk. Also,
here is a blog segment from a series of reports by Philip Miller, MD, on A Natural Anticoagulant Regimen worth noting. Dr. Miller discusses the various natural alternatives to prescription anticoagulants and mentions Nattokinase, ginkgo, fish oil, vitamin E which supports what’s been mentioned here. Dr. Miller’s report was also published in Allergy Research Group’s Focus newsletter.

By Philip Lee Miller, MD.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Silent Inflammation – Risk Marker for Stroke, Heart Attack & Much More

Earthing or Grounding The easy and economical way to eliminate platelet aggregation.
There are many archived posts on this topic. Check this search result for links

Specific to platelet aggregation and blood viscosity, Integrative Cardiologist, Stephen T. Sinatra, MD, FACC, FACN, CNS
has offered numerous reports online. In his book, The Sinatra Solution – Metabolic Cardiology, he
details on the benefits of grounding. I recall seeing a video clip where he shows before and after photos
of platelets clumped together and then separated by grounding in an experiment he did with colleagues.
Dramatic change. It’s important to eliminate electromagnetic radiation sources (EMR’s) wherever possible
starting with the bedroom since that’s an area where you will be exposed continually for the duration of sleeping hours.
He recommends removing all sources, cell phones, computers, TVs, and using a grounding or earthing pad or sheet.

One report online out of many [heartmdinstitute.com]

Here’s a pdf copy of the book, Earthing by Clinton Ober, Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D., Martin Zucker

Page 173 - Earthing – Natural Blood Thinner… and p. 188 is the dark field microscopy photograph of blood platelet cells, clumped before grounding and separated, after. Graphic proof.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2017 10:26AM by Jackie.
Re: Clot risk
April 15, 2017 03:16PM

I too have low platelet count, actually, i saw Dr. Brownstein a few wees ago and he did a blood draw. My Platelet count is 139 which is low, the lab values are 140-400 Thousand/ul. So, what does that really mean, is our blood thinner with a lower platelet count ? Cardiokinase is derived from Soy, people with thyroid problems should not eat soy, so would taking Cardiokinase inhibit the Thyroid hormone?

I was looking up low platelets and i don't have anemia, or the other symptoms. I have had low platelets all my life, so maybe that is just me. How about you what is your platelet count?


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2017 03:26PM by Elizabeth.
Re: Clot risk
April 16, 2017 11:02PM

Shannon would have to tell the story, but I recall he got his stroke while on Cardiokinase.<[www.afibbers.org].

* I was on Cardiokinase at 100mg 3x/day, which is the most potent form of Nattokinase, when I had my small stroke. While concerning, its quite possible that if my stroke was due to necrotic debris from my previously closed LAA for some months, during which obvious necrosis would have taken place, and then upon the leak opening up and re-establishing blood flow between the LAA and Left atrium some of this necrotic debris could well have washed out of the remnant LAA pouch and gone right to the brain.

If so, there is no surety that any blood thinner, including warfarin or the NOACS, would have been as effective in preventing such a necrotic debris based CVA as they generally might be with a more typical thrombi-embolic origin stroke. It is also true that my stroke could have been due to thrombi-embolic debris as well, since this origin has been confirmed as a risk from late leaks in previously surgically ligated LAAs.

In any event, while we cannot quite say for sure that Cardiokinase/Nattokinase is not helpful in such strokes, and I do think it has real merit, even if not to the level required to prevent a serious and direct stroke risk such as having an in-situ stroke generator suddenly open up inside your heart. It nevertheless needs to be said that this strong dose of Cardiokinase did not prevent my stroke, whatever the nature of the emboli.

As such, I would not recommend depending on it for anything more than mild to modest risks such as using it to reduce whole blood viscosity which is has been shown to do well with an average 20% reduction in whole blood viscosity at a 100mg dose 3x a day of Cardiokinase. And I do think from my own earlier experiences and anecdotal reports that it does indeed help make the blood more slippery and less likely for a fibrin based clot to form, I just can not recommend anyone who have a serious risk for thrombi-embolic events to go it along with Nattokinase or Cardiokinase and to strongly consider adding in a full Anti-coagulant drug such as Warfarin or Eliquis/Xeralto in such cases. At least until we better understand both the effects of Nattokinase in these kind of cases and these NOAC drugs as well. There may well be a role for combined therapy with greater knowledge of who both Nattokinase and warfarin or Eliquis work together.

Re: Clot risk
April 17, 2017 08:50AM
Thanks, George. I recall that and the fact that Shannon's Lariat procedure to close off the LAA leaked and the clot formed. He wasn't having afib; rather it was a 'mechanical failure.' He undoubtedly had a very large accumulation of debris as a result of that particular issue, unfortunately...and he certainly is fortunate to have survived the disaster.

My post here, however, was for those readers who are new and may not be aware of the potential risks of forming clots with afib events of longer duration and an alert to have the testing done for the markers of inflammation that contribute to hyperviscosity which can then create a clotting risk factor in prolonged events.
when they have not been prescribed an anticoagulant.

Keeping the blood less viscous is important whether or not one has Afib and the various enzymes that help do that are certainly easy enough and without side effects of drugs ... or the cost, as well.

Just an awareness alert that there are useful, natural enzymes that help keep blood less likely to form clots and to know the important markers.

Re: Clot risk
April 17, 2017 08:53AM
Hi Liz – My platelet count is the same as yours! 139. One lab indicates the range is 140 – 400 and another lab uses 150 as the lowest level. The low count does affect me when I’m using anticoagulants…especially warfarin…. and significantly, after my first ablation on warfarin. That gave me huge hematomas originating at the groin punctures that allowed blood to seep down the muscle fascia/tissue down to my knees, creating sacks of dark fluid and swelling on both thighs.

Fortunately, it just took time for the body to resorb and normalize. With ablations 2 and 3, I was on Eliquis and was spared the hematomas at all puncture areas except where a lab tech messed up my hand trying to find a vein. My only other symptoms also come from physical injury… hard bumps which bruise quickly and extensively and take a while to heel. I typically clot from cuts in normal time, so I’m had to worry about using the enzymes with low platelets.

As for the soy content in nattokinase: Nattokinase, is an enzyme that is extracted from the fermented soybean food called natto, so does have those origins and thus, the alert that it is soy-derived. I have not researched to see if this small amount is contraindicated in those with autoimmune thyroid conditions such as Hashimoto’s and Graves Disease… although I realize that for those people, eating soy food such as Tempeh is contraindicated.

For those who avoid soy, consider using serrapeptase which is a systemic, proteolytic enzyme that helps reduce the inflammation and helps with viscosity.

Re: Clot risk
April 22, 2017 10:43AM
I've just added a few more tips and links to the original post that are related to the Clot Risk topic.

Especially easy and economical, not to mention effective, is Earthing or Grounding. The link I've provided shows the effect on platelet aggregation before and after grounding... as documented by cardiologist, Stephen Sinatra.


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2017 05:44PM by Jackie.
Re: Clot risk
April 24, 2017 10:44PM
I'm on Eliquis - would it be alright to take Magnesium Bisglycinate while on this blood thinner?
Re: Clot risk
April 25, 2017 10:15AM
Spekkles - I take between 600 and 800 mg a day of magnesium (sometimes more) and took the full dose Eliquis for 2 years and now, the half dose with no problems, even though I have a slightly low platelet count. I did not experience symptoms of unusual bruising or even with small cuts, the clotting time was normal.

Re: Clot risk
May 15, 2017 01:24PM
Hi, I was wondering exactly which products and dosage are recommended to try to prevent clots. I am currently taking 100mg Nattokinase at night and 2,000mgs of fish oil daily and a teaspoon of Kyolic liquid garlic daily. I take Mag Taurate am and Mag Glycinate pm and also take D-Ribose/B/C/CoQ10 (100mgs)/Taurine 500mgs daily. I had an a-fib episode over a month ago after 2 years so I lowered my thyroid meds just in case (altho blood work shows I am barely taking enough) and then had another episode last night so feeling very depressed (each time I converted within a few hours and did use a Metropolol tablet plus took 4 baby aspirin) I also take Motherwort and Hawthorn herbs daily.When I went to cardiologist this spring for checkup he said due to my age (79) altho previously they didn't recommend a blood thinner he would now do so if I have more frequent episodes sad smiley However he didn't ask about my diet (mostly raw plenty of fruits veggies nuts etc) or what I take daily. I am praying that I won't have more for a long time. thnx anneh

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2017 07:57PM by anneh.
Re: Clot risk
May 17, 2017 12:18PM
Anne - I responded a bit late to your PM. Hope you received it.
Re: Clot risk
May 24, 2017 11:34AM
Just saw this, J. Super-important topic. Stroke can be a life-changer.

Excellent... as always!

Thank you for caring about everyone here.

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login