New here, anxious and scared to sleep

Hi gang!
Great site and forum....im new here, recently diagnosed, vagal probably as both were hours after fairly intense weight training, both late at night, woke up in af second time... Im 42, got af dec 1, required cardioversion aftter 2 months of persistant af and being jerked around first, and then was given the go ahead one month after that and within 3 days had put myself back in af.... Been a month since and only walking rt now and losing wt...Im a bit overweight, not too fat, id say 15-17%, very muscular, played college and some professional football....have a "jj watt" type body, leaner than most but tall, 6'5" 285 lbs...will probably try and lose both muscle and fat to get down to 270 first, then try for 250... I have been 295 and under ten percent bf when i was younger.. I have a large rt and left atrium, a larger heart in general, normal bp/ pulse, 123/73, 60-63 bpm,....my question is, i cant sleep! Recently have been using regular cpap, and i have less lengthy sleep on it... I have been taking xanax1-1.5 mg at night, was down to .5 before the las wpisode, but HATE it, makes me depressed next day bad..i tried remeron which worked very well in the past but this time made my heart race, maybe it did before too, but i woke up at 85-100bpm!!!....so i cantt domthat..flexeril has worked well in the past and i do have multiple bulged/ herniated disks in my neck, and two lower back surgeries, so it does help that....i had bad bad neck pain underneath my left shoulder both times before af events, and actually had HICCUPS after a second cortisone shot in my spine rt before first event... Odd...anyway, any advice on getting to sleep or dealing with this is great and appreciated.....
Ps.....i take 100mg coq19 morn, 600 mg mag and 4 g taurine before bed to relax, and have since BEFORE ever going into af for last five years for health reasons and muscle relaxation/sleep, also eliquis 5 mg bid bc im factor v leiden heterozygous w one dvt in 09....
Thanks
Ben

I was told by my Sleep Doctor I was in Deep S__t after my sleep study and he mandated CPAP use. I hated it, so I went to another Dr, and verified with an in-home sleep study that I was Oxygenating alright if I slept of my side. I give myself a post-hypnotic suggestion to wake up and turn on my side if I ever start snoring because I rolled on my back. I have had others question whether or not a post-hypnotic suggestion would work, but I hated the CPAP so much, and telling yourself to do something on a que like hearing yourself snore works if your really motivated.

Losing as much body-fat as possible is critical, as the less weight on your neck pushing down on your airway, the less likely you are to have Apnea. Also certain weight training exercises that build up the front neck muscles can make the S-Apnea worse, as when you fall asleep the neck muscles relax, and the neck tissue collapses back on the Airway.

Also pay attention to the timing of your AF episodes in relation to any Cortisol Injections or Oral Steriod (Prednisone) therapy. Sometimes if the injected Steriod hits the bloodstream, this will cause profound high like being on Speed or Cocaine. HR can be dramatically increased for days. Also pay attention to what is going on 3-10 days out from Anti-Inflammatory Steriod Therapy, as during that time your natural Cortisol production maybe suppressed, increasing the likelyhood of having AFIB.

Finally it would be wise to examine how you lift weights. You want to avoid doing intense power lifting that will stretch the Atria out in your Heart. One of the things that enables AFIB to occur is a stretched out Atria, and this is why Athletes are more prone to AFIB than the average population.

Thanks, yes ive been using my cpap and sleeping on my side, but ive been lifting (and holding my breath) for THIRTY years, since twelve yrs old... Its all ive ever wanted to do, even liked it better than football... This is a devastating blow, as i thought i was in pretty good health bp and hr wise.. I knew id have to msybe lose some weight eventually, but not this soon....i figure if i lose thirty to forty pounds my atrium will shrink a bit, as ive seen studies that showed exercise and wt loss reduced atria size...

You probably can still lift, just adjust your routine. Lighter weights, more isolation, concentrate on posture, form while breathing all the way through the set. You should probably cut out stuff like Heavy Squats.

Thats encouraging. Thank you

Hi Ben - Have you tried PharmaGaba by Natural Factors or L-theanine at night about 20 minutes before bed? Also... keep your heavy exercise routine for daytime and not later than 6 pm so your body has a chance to "calm down" before you settle in for sleep.

Also, if you haven't yet read the Conference Room session on Right vs Left Side Sleeping, you may find something there of interest. Go here: [www.afibbers.org]

If you're interested in details on the PharmaGaba, send me a PM and I can share a report with you by Naturopath, Michael Murray.

I have a couple reports and a booklet pdf I can share with you on the topic of "Stress, Anxiety and Insomnia" by Michael Murray, N. D. if you are interested. Just send me a PM.

Jackie

The way I read the story, using the CPAP is causing Anxiety, that in turn is the main reason for needing the take sleeping pills. Is that right?

Ben - yes - definitely lighter weights and less intensity... plus less exercise time - overall.

In the past, several posters who were avid weight lifters wrote in to say that Dr. Natale told them to not lift more than 50-75 pounds overhead or bench presses... and that excessive weights ... esp. over 100 pounds is bad for the heart as it causes both heart enlargement plus valve damage in addition to the afib.

Jackie

Ben,

In my case, chronic fitness was my path to afib (primarily endurance exercise, in my case). Detraining has been part of my plan to keep afib in remission (in addition, magnesium to bowel tolerance, taurine, potassium and avoiding excess calcium - then on-demand flecainide to convert me if I go out of rhythm). I'm still very active, but I have a subjective feel of how much is too much. I don't do endurance training and limit hard endurance activities. I can do Tabatas, which are very intense, but short duration. For strength training, I limit myself to body weight training - like TRX or just the body. If I lift, I do super slow to failure - which is relatively low load. I also train always breathing through my nose. This is a reasonable control on doing too much. I work on increasing the serum CO2 and the the brain's CO2 sensor setpoint. This is because hemoglobin has a huge affinity for O2 and you can get more O2 to your cells if your serum pH is lowered a bit as CO2 and the lower pH allows hemoglobin to release the O2 for the cells. To this end I do some breath holds, but after the exhale. This does not increase blood pressure etc. It just helps retrain the CO2 setpoint. For more on this: <[smile.amazon.com]

In any case, I'd go very light on exercise till you get the afib figured out. For weight loss, hands down the best approach is fasting IMO. Not because of caloric deficit, but because it allows insulin to drop very low. Since insulin is the storage hormone, when it is low it allows the body to access fat stores. For more info <[smile.amazon.com] - Fung is a Toronto nephrologist who's treated many with fasting. If you chose to do this, pay attention to his advice on supplementing electrolytes, especially sodium as low insulin will signal the kidney to excrete sodium. This goes against much advice to limit sodium but this does not apply in low insulin states.

George

Wow! Thanks guys
Hi, I could probably make this into a separate post about specific sleeping pills, wondering about trazodone and Flexeril… The GABA supplement I haven't tried it, but I am way past CNI and unfortunately, and I have now basically drug induced insomnia from taking the Xanax starting after my a fib on December 1, and then I pop out of bed after it wears off, and now I'm waking up nervous with a high heart rate and scared I will go back into a fib, although I do think I am more of a vagal type this freaks me out.. I will make a separate post about it so more people would see exactly what I'm asking....

anti-fib – no, the CPAP, actually it is a BiPAP, works very well and doesn't bother me and I can use it, although I do find that it tends to wake me up earlier than if I don't use it, perhaps that's because I'm sleeping better? I think it's from the Xanax wearing off though now and causing rebound wakefulness/tachycardia...

Jackie, – thanks for the advice, once I get this straightened out those might be better long-term solution for me for sure, usually the taurine and mag was all ineeded before fib...

George- I am all for fasting and using the keto diet, I have lost tons of weight on that before, and you are right about needing sodium on it… I found it didn't work very well until I increased the fats and then increased sodium for energy… I didn't do much with potassium on it because it was before my a fib, now I'm worried that I wouldn't have enough potassium on it and may need to supplement, but I read your comment about taking too much k and it putting you into a fib so it makes me worry about even attempting keto.... also impressive that you do tabatas, I would be afraid to try that right now, what does your heart rate got up to when you do those?
There was a study recently that you guys probably saw where they gave patients an exercise routine of four minute intervals at 85% of max heart rate, with 3 min lesser breaks, and they had WAY less incidence of a fib and SMALLER left atrium in just 12 weeks…!! I am surprised they were able to get people to comply with getting their heart rate that high, but it obviously works… Have you guys seen that study?
I will make a separate post about the sleeping meds because this one was too diluted in my original message with my other information…
thanks for all you guys help and a GREAT resource of a board!
Ben

Wow! Thanks guys
Hi, I could probably make this into a separate post about specific sleeping pills, wondering about trazodone and Flexeril… The GABA supplement I haven't tried it, but I am way past CNI and unfortunately, and I have now basically drug induced insomnia from taking the Xanax starting after my a fib on December 1, and then I pop out of bed after it wears off, and now I'm waking up nervous with a high heart rate and scared I will go back into a fib, although I do think I am more of a vagal type this freaks me out.. I will make a separate post about it so more people would see exactly what I'm asking....

anti-fib – no, the CPAP, actually it is a BiPAP, works very well and doesn't bother me and I can use it, although I do find that it tends to wake me up earlier than if I don't use it, perhaps that's because I'm sleeping better? I think it's from the Xanax wearing off though now and causing rebound wakefulness/tachycardia...

Jackie, – thanks for the advice, once I get this straightened out those might be better long-term solution for me for sure, usually the taurine and mag was all ineeded before fib...

George- I am all for fasting and using the keto diet, I have lost tons of weight on that before, and you are right about needing sodium on it… I found it didn't work very well until I increased the fats and then increased sodium for energy… I didn't do much with potassium on it because it was before my a fib, now I'm worried that I wouldn't have enough potassium on it and may need to supplement, but I read your comment about taking too much k and it putting you into a fib so it makes me worry about even attempting keto.... also impressive that you do tabatas, I would be afraid to try that right now, what does your heart rate got up to when you do those?
There was a study recently that you guys probably saw where they gave patients an exercise routine of four minute intervals at 85% of max heart rate, with 3 min lesser breaks, and they had WAY less incidence of a fib and SMALLER left atrium in just 12 weeks…!! I am surprised they were able to get people to comply with getting their heart rate that high, but it obviously works… Have you guys seen that study?
I will make a separate post about the sleeping meds because this one was too diluted in my original message with my other information…
thanks for all you guys help and a GREAT resource of a board!
Ben

For the record, Xanax is crap and should be avoided. I found it did ZERO for me in terms of getting to sleep and it left me with a hungover feeling the next day. Heck, I'd rather drink. I may get the hangover but at least I'll sleep!

Ben,

" I would be afraid to try that right now, what does your heart rate got up to when you do those? "

I would not suggest you do that. If you have an adrenergic component to your afib, a high heart rate will likely be a trigger. So Tabatas aren't on for anybody with adrenergic afib.

My heart rate gets up to 160, as I recall (I don't monitor frequently). I'm 61 and my absolute max HR is around 173. Doing them breathing through the nose is the challenge...

George

Ben

I have found that some sort of exercise, at least an hour will guarantee good sleep. Just trying to stay awake until 10:00 is a struggle on the days I exercise. Non exercise days, I still can go to sleep at 10:30, but the sleep involves more tossing and turning. A pretty regular routine with 8 hrs a night with few exceptions.

When I exercise, I am done no later than 5:00 pm, with plenty of time to relax, settle down to my normal evening routine. I do lift for an hour twice a week, but nothing with heavy weights and never push to my max on repetitions (push-ups being the exception). Full body workout with a focus on my core (previous back issues because of weak core).

I am 10 yrs post a successful ablation and only take potassium, magnesium and taurine to keep the occasional arrhythmias at bay. No prescriptions and never any sleep aids. I am 71 with low body fat and will be heading out this afternoon for some windsurfing in 25-35 mph winds.

You might look at something called the "dreampad". I haven't tried it yet, but am considering it.