Devices to measute AFib

Are there any reliable and yet relatively cheap devices to check for A/F.

We have a blood pressure monitor which does have an A/F indicator but I am concerned as to how reliable this type of monitor might be.

The idea is to experiment with changes in diet & supplementation to try and reduce the A/F.

The atrial fibrillation in this case is not something that can be felt but is there all the same. Doctor insists on prescribing Xarello as a blood thinner but a side-effect of this drug is 'Leg Weakness'. This leaves two options, take the Xarello and be virtually unable to stand or avoid Xarello and risk possible stroke, at least according to the doctor.

Currently taking a small amount of vit B5 (pantothenic acid), Coconut Oil and copper (as copper gluconate) while trying to reduce the level of free iron (feritins) using Rice Bran extract (Inosotol Hexaphosphate/IP6).

Thanks,

AliveCor Kardia.

[www.alivecor.com]

Pretty much the gold standard for home use. If you can afford it, I'd highly recommend getting one. They're like $80 or so.

Thanks Wolfpack, $80 is equivalent to about £65 here in the UK, if I can find one for that price that will be fine. Thanks for the suggestion.

Hello Nick - just a comment on the copper intake. How much do you take daily?
Do you also take supplemental zinc to help offset the copper? Copper is typically not something one should use much of if at all.

Copper is often included in eye health vitamins...but typically is offset by about 10 times as much zinc and the zinc needs to be in a highly-absorbable form.

That said, copper is known to stimulate activity in brain neurons and increase production of amyloid beta and 'glom' together so the brain's clearance mechanism doesn't function well; therefore, researchers are saying copper is a key contributor to Alzheimer's disease and are looking at all sources of exposure.

Just FYI.

Jackie

NickC,

Wow, I can't imagine not being able to feel A-fib via the carotid artery. I guess the pulse strength must vary quite a bit from individual to individual. When I was in A-fib, it was obvious without checking the pulse and clearly obvious when checking. What are your symptoms when you are in A-fib? How do you know? Shortness of breath is normal if doing much activity, but is there anything else?

Just curious.

Interesting, Ken. I had the same experiences.... I always knew even w/o checking pulse. If I were asleep, I'd awaken automatically. For that reason, I refrained from buying (back then) any type of monitor that would help diagnose...mostly because I didn't want to become OCD about continually checking for the 'what if's' and adding to the stress burden. Now, the various gadgets that are so accurate seem very handy.

I think the AliveCor is wonderful. However, I've also used a $5 iPhone app, Stress Doctor. I wrote about it here: <[www.afibbers.org]

It uses the iPhone camera to generate a pulse wave from the pulse in your finger. You can see the afib in the pulse wave variability and in the pulse rate high variability.

I use a pulse point just in front of and slightly above the tragus on the ear. For me, this gives me a stronger signal that is easier to find than either the carotid artery or the wrist.

I usually have a "feeling" when I'm in afib. I check with my finger to verify. With the app or AliveCor (now Kardia) device, I have solid verification. I typically do this prior to taking flecainide to terminate the episode.

Hi Jackie,

Thanks for you comments. I should have been more complete in my description of dietary supplements:

• 500mg Rice Bran extract (Inosotol Hexaphosphate/IP6) - taken away from other food (often last thing at night)
• 16mg Copper Gluconate (2mg elemental copper) - in warm water, with breakfast
• 75mg Zinc Picolinate (15mg elemental zinc) - in cold water, with breakfast
• 1 teaspoon coconut oil - with breakfast
• 500mg Pantothenic acid, B5 - in cold water, mid-morning
• 500mg Choline - in cold water, mid-morning
• 100mg Activated Charcoal - every 3-4 days, taken last thing at night, avoid Rice Bran extract, Copper & Zinc on those days

From what I have read there are as many studies suggesting Copper deficiency is a likely cause of Alzheimer's as there are suggesting excess copper is the cause. Many of the papers suggesting copper as a cause of Alzheimer's are looking at the plasma level of copper rather the RBC (intra-cellular) copper level.

I should point out that I am not actually the one with AFib but am enquiring on behalf of an elderly relative. However, I do take all the same supplements myself, wouldn't be right to ask someone else to take them unless I was prepared to do so myself.

Quote
Jackie
Hello Nick - just a comment on the copper intake. How much do you take daily?
Do you also take supplemental zinc to help offset the copper? Copper is typically not something one should use much of if at all.

Copper is often included in eye health vitamins...but typically is offset by about 10 times as much zinc and the zinc needs to be in a highly-absorbable form.

That said, copper is known to stimulate activity in brain neurons and increase production of amyloid beta and 'glom' together so the brain's clearance mechanism doesn't function well; therefore, researchers are saying copper is a key contributor to Alzheimer's disease and are looking at all sources of exposure.

Just FYI.

Jackie

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2017 11:20AM by NickC.

Ken, I am not actually the one with AFib but am enquiring on behalf of an elderly relative. However have just had a chat and he has no idea when he has AFib, only way he knows is that his Doctor says he has and gives him a blood thinner for it.

Quote
Ken
NickC,

Wow, I can't imagine not being able to feel A-fib via the carotid artery. I guess the pulse strength must vary quite a bit from individual to individual. When I was in A-fib, it was obvious without checking the pulse and clearly obvious when checking. What are your symptoms when you are in A-fib? How do you know? Shortness of breath is normal if doing much activity, but is there anything else?

Just curious.

Nick – on the copper topic… I’ve read that as well about Alzheimer’s. Eye health nutrients often recommended by ophthalmologists to maintain eye health stability in those 50 and over, typically include a small amount of copper and always include zinc to help balance that out. Examples:

Occuvite Adult 50+ provides:
1 mg. of Copper gluconate and then offsets that with 9 mg of zinc oxide. They really should choose a more bioavailable form of zinc…such as gluconate but then, it’s probably a matter of economics.

A more comprehensive product is AREDS 2 and that provides
2 mg copper 80 mg zinc

I’m not recommending either Eye product, but just using the proportions as an example of cautious dosing amounts.
The point being ... it’s better to be very conservative with copper as a little goes a long way and you definitely don’t want to reach cumulative, toxic levels.

Dr. Mercola offers some points of concern regarding copper as well as acknowledging the fact that copper deficiency is found in Alzheimer patients…. He states:

Generally, taking a multivitamin with copper is a not a good idea, unless you have a knowledgeable health care practitioner tell you that you are deficient, it is best to avoid any copper supplements

Source: [articles.mercola.com]
And this one [articles.mercola.com]

Jackie

Quote
GeorgeN
I think the AliveCor is wonderful. However, I've also used a $5 iPhone app, Stress Doctor. I wrote about it here: <[www.afibbers.org]

It uses the iPhone camera to generate a pulse wave from the pulse in your finger. You can see the afib in the pulse wave variability and in the pulse rate high variability.

I use a pulse point just in front of and slightly above the tragus on the ear. For me, this gives me a stronger signal that is easier to find than either the carotid artery or the wrist.

I usually have a "feeling" when I'm in afib. I check with my finger to verify. With the app or AliveCor (now Kardia) device, I have solid verification. I typically do this prior to taking flecainide to terminate the episode.

Hi George and Nick,

As George noted the Stress Doctor app that works via the Iphone camera can help detect AFIB just for your own edification, but it is limited when you want to email the results to an EPs office or Cardio for confirmation and interpretation. I'm not aware of many EPs who will accept Stress Doctor read out results as valid reliable evidence since, to my knowledge at least, it has not yet been validated and approved by the FDA for detection of AFIB. Plus, most nurses and doctors will look at it and go ... "huh"?

The point being, that if you just want a personal indication of when you are likely in AFIB or NSR it can be an inexpensive help as George noted above, but if you also ever want to share the results with your Cardio or EPs office, I think you will find a less welcomed reception. Thus, as a better tool if you might wish to share the results with other physicians to offer actionable prescriptive steps based on the results of a captured episode, then I am sure you'll find the Alivecor Kardia Mobile device and app will be better received at most cardio offices.

That being said, even the FDA approved single lead EKG detection algorithm in the KARDIA app and sensor, while of reasonable accuracy, is not always accurate in confirming true AFIB. It's EKG readings also can be 'noisy' and hard for an EP or staff nurse to interperate properly, As such, most EPs will look at a KARDIA EKG strip chart s as a tool indicating to them to get you in for a 12 lead EKG to fully confirm the arrhythmia type. But that is a big help, in any event, and the EKG strip at least consistently looks stimilar to a full 12 lead EKG even though without all the nuance and clarity available in a full 12 lead EKG.

Also, a word of caution to those who buy the Alivecor (or any self testing EKG like device). Please be aware not to let yourself become an obsessive and compulsive checker of your HR! I've seen quite a few who are super anxious about their hearts and often overall health who, once they get the device start checking their HR every hour of the day or more! Needless to say, that is not a very healthy use of the technology and could lead to the person becoming almost Neurotically obsessed with how their heart is doing and actually make matters worse, especially psychologically , if not physically as well.

In addition, I have heard EP horror stories :-) where so many of their patients 'got hooked' on obsessive worry over checking their Kardia Heart rate and then inundating their offices and staff with hundreds of mostly NSR reading EKG strips that they had to formally disallow ANY KARDIA results sent in by phone, fax or computer to their offices and would only look a a few representative samples, at most, when and if the patient came in for an in-person consult.

So please, use such a tool wisely and in moderation and please do not send loads of EKG strips into your EPs office and wear out your welcome there quickly!

Otherwise, it can be a very handy tool especially for active afibbers and those in the first year of two post ablation!

Take care,
Shannon

AliveCor is on sale for the month of February. Reduced from $99 to $79.

AliveCor is an excellent app, will almost always detect afib....However as I found out recently it can misinterpret PVC's as AFIB especially if you get them as trigeminy and bigeminy pattern. This however didn't fool Natale as he was able to read thru the noise and ordered up a 12 lead ecg which confirmed this. I've had a nasty run of these as of late.

McHale



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2017 09:08PM by McHale.

Wish I lived in the states wolfpack, over here in England everything is twice the price it should be. Have just ordered a Kardio which cost the equivalent of $104.

Quote
wolfpack
AliveCor is on sale for the month of February. Reduced from $99 to $79.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2017 06:15AM by NickC.

Can anyone help me interpret the Kardia EKG. Device has now arrived and shows regular AFib for the person in question. However, how can I tell if this is real AFib or just misinterpreted PVC's? Can I tell from this what type of AFib we are looking at here?

Thanks,
Nick

Quote
McHale
AliveCor is an excellent app, will almost always detect afib....However as I found out recently it can misinterpret PVC's as AFIB especially if you get them as trigeminy and bigeminy pattern. This however didn't fool Natale as he was able to read thru the noise and ordered up a 12 lead ecg which confirmed this. I've had a nasty run of these as of late.

McHale

The Kardia app has example EKG waveforms in its help section. AFib looks like normal QRS complexes that are not preceded by P-waves and occur wth irregular, or non-uniform, spacings between the "peaks" (R to R interval).

I wish it were possible to put a drawing here, but I don't think it is.